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HagarTheHorrible

Why, Oh why, oh why, do I always get suckered in

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I should really have learnt by now, but i just can't resist.

 

Two seaters are an absolute pain in the backside.  Maybe it's me, I don't know how to attack them, but whatever I try it seems the gunner is just as likely to get me. Blind spots, forget it, switching from side to side, don't be daft, high aspect angle, why bother. 

 

If you're attacking two seaters it seems that you may as well just saddle up and plug away, the odds really don't seem to be any worse.  if a game is to be anything other than pure chance then it has to reward stratagy, tactics and skill, at the moment, when attacking two seaters, I feel as if none of those things apply. ☹️

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High angles, Speed and good aim are your friends with Bi-Places....but with the current AI every two-seater attack is a gamble! 

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Indeed attacking them does seem dangerous. That said I do find my chances of survival somewhat better when doing quarter attacks from above or other high aspect ones rather than to "saddle up and plug away". Leaving their range before turning around and coming back for another attack, rather than turning around and loss of speed while in their range. The downside for me in doing my attacks on them in this manner so far however seems to be that it takes far longer to achieve the kill and ends up with enemy fighters turning up before I've done the deed.

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1 hour ago, US93_Larner said:

High angles, Speed and good aim are your friends with Bi-Places....but with the current AI every two-seater attack is a gamble! 

 

I've come to believe that, in multiplayer, even if you take the best angle you can, but still pass (even for 1 second) into the firing arc of an AI gunner, your chances of not being hit are nearly zero.  In single player is seems slightly better for some reason, but not much.  It doesn't matter what the gunner-equipped plane or GB module is.  I've just come to accept that attacking planes with AI gunners is going to result in coming out of it beat up.  

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Hi angles bring you too close.  Low angles from long range and walk your tracers into it works better against the AI gunners.  Break off before you get into the mid to close range AI sniper zone.

Edited by J28w-Broccoli

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....speaking of deadly AI gunners, got murdered in the first bullet by an AI gunner tonight while trying to get one of my new pilots his 5th kill..."pulled my punch" diving in and got blasted on the way out

 

....the new boy got him though, so mission accomplished...?

Edited by US93_Larner

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4 hours ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

In single player is seems slightly better for some reason, but not much.  

I agree, there is a difference.  Do you have any ideas on what causes this?

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WW II might work slightly better, what with the higher speeds, it’s still not great, but better, for WW I the relative speeds emphasise the shortcomings, writ large.  The only tactic that seems to offer better odds, than pure chance is saddling up at long range and plinking away at long distance, switching position as the tracer starts coming towards you.  Yes it rewards good shooting, but even good shooting, from up close, slap bang into the fuselage is no guarantee of diminishing the rear gunners martial ardour and accuracy.  To make it enjoyable and worthwhile it really has to offer better odds than a crap shoot if you try to employ good tactics, especially when trying to exploit blind spots.

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38 minutes ago, emely said:

I agree, there is a difference.  Do you have any ideas on what causes this?

 

I really don't, but I guess when all else fails, blame ping.  

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In a single player game, the rear machine gunner is usually less dangerous than online, although it should be the other way around.  I even began to think that the creators of maps have additional skill settings for machine gunners.

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Fighting AI single seaters is too easy even on Ace difficulty, so at least there is a danger attacking two seaters and thats good.

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8 hours ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

Two seaters are an absolute pain in the backside. 

 

Spoiler

image.jpeg.05743a6570b98fa4e990196851f1103f.jpeg

 

Many would agree. You know, they tried oblique gun for a reason.

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I hate that Halb AI gunners .They are nasty they do not care of my ping - it's look like bullets tracers are behind me but they don't :(  I can live with that but can't stand that  they can  shoot while unconscious.  

 

 

 

@J5_Hellbender. Please do forgot to note  , it's not 20mm Becker gun exploit 🙊

Edited by 1PL-Husar-1Esk
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Why did you shoot this gentleman?  Sir, I don’t remember, I was unconscious :-))

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1 hour ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

I hate that Halb AI gunners .They are nasty they do not care of my ping - it's look like bullets tracers are behind me but they don't :(  I can live with that but can't stand that  they can  shoot while unconscious.  

 

@J5_Hellbender. Please do forgot to note  , it's not 20mm Becker gun exploit 🙊

 

Yeah, this really sucks.

 

Add it to the list of problems with gunners: vertical firing arcs that are too narrow, gunners which are able to fire through the propeller arc without damaging it (I guess it makes up for the narrow arc), the Scarff ring getting stuck in its highest position which blocks the view, reloading one gun while maintaining full control of the second, no scoring and no parser records for human gunners, broken animations (for gunners bailing out and all human gunner animations in multiplayer... human gunners in general are just broken). We already had a round of FC fixes, which included some fixes for the two-seaters, and I'm afraid that the next one might be a ways out.

 

 

As a workaround I would suggest not to attack two-seaters for the moment. 😁

 

Or attack them at high angles from below, which has worked since RoF and still works in FC, and is obviously not meant to be easy against a low-flying Halberstadt. As for the AI gunner being so deadly in the Halberstadt, it's directly related to this limited gun arc. The vertical angle of fire is very small, but if you are indeed in it then you are almost in the same horizontal plane as the aircraft and the AI needs to calculate less — which gives you the perception that he's more accurate than the Bristol gunner, but he just fires less often. Add to that the fact that you can tell your gunner to hold fire until the enemy is closer, and he is perceived to be even more accurate, as he fires even less and lulls you into a false sense of security.

 

 

As for the Becker gun, I'm not a fan because it's not a historical loadout. If you have it set up to only fire at very close range and you lure a scout to come closer, it's almost a guaranteed hit and, depending on where it hits, a kill — especially one of those fragile S.E.5as. Again, you're more or less killing yourself at that point by coming in so close and you're always better off attacking a two-seater in pairs. Regardless, I'm lobbying with J5 for locked loadouts on some upcoming Flugpark missions, and I'd like to see the CL.II limited to one front firing Spandau, one rear firing Parabellum and 4x 12.5kg bombs, which is as close to its historical loadout as possible. Those big 50kgs were never used on the CL.II, as far as I know.

 

It obviously goes both ways, and I'm equally lobbying to have bombs locked on Camels and 75% fuel locked for all planes.

 

 

I would also like to point out that, while you did get shot down (and attacking two-seaters is indeed meant to be dangerous), you also got him down. These are very slow machines, and at the first sign of damage, the thing that goes through my head (if not a bullet) is "do I crashland here or on my way back home?" For the moment I'm quite happy to see this type of mutual assured destruction.

 

Oh and we're still hiring!

 

 

 

TL;DR Keep your distance, attack in pairs, everything is perfectly balanced at it should be, join the flying infantry!

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@J5_HellbenderFranky I do shoot down many  more otwo-seaters)than they got me (Lucky me) In that particular engagement I would also survive if the gunner wouldn't shoot  me while unconscious. I came so close because I do shot him from distance and  known that I was hitting the gunner first - to my surprise ! I would like to have better visual  feedback tho , not just dust and  splinter of wood chipped away but some small red particle simulating the flesh hit. 

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The incident that encouraged me to vent was managing to get two really good bursts into the gunner cockpit area from a very good angle. Despite  both pilot and gunner being wounded 10 and 60 ‘ish % respectively, and just having fired the most damaging burst, the rear gunner still insta killed me.  Maybe just bad luck on my part but I do expect a degradation in gunner ability if he’s badly wounded, whether aim or speed of action.

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Of course it's still not risk free, but the best tactic I've found is high angle attacks with a wingman, if someone starts drawing fire they break off and the other dives in while the gunner is busy and vice-versa. 

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I do not aim my nose at two-seater unless I'm firing; he who flies into enemy sights has forgotten the Boelckes face.
I keep him outside my 11-1 o'clock arc and never maintain a heading.

I do not stay on the same side of two-seater; he who lingers in same firing arc has forgotten the Boelckes face.
When I move, I force gunner to swing his gun in wide arcs. 

I do not shoot the two seater if he can track me with his guns; he who flies into enemy guns has forgotten the Boelckes face.
I aim and fire only if his gunner is out of sight or in high-g turn, and I have escape trajectory.

I make no shortcuts when attacking an two seaters; he who assumes he can't be hit has forgotten the Boelckes face.
I always consider gunner to be one-two seconds away from firing solution.

 

Edited by J2_Trupobaw
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Seems like from my experience if you get the gunner / pilot in the first burst then you're sorted. If not he's going to REALLY chew you up. Most of my Halbs kills where I got the guy in one pass, the other plane didn't fire a shot. 

Edited by US93_Larner

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Unless it's changed recently, they still fire from too far away for me. Not to mention firing through flames and from a tumbling dart.

 

If I'm being disciplined, I find it best :

  • to attack from high (naturelmont).
  • be at top speed for the pass.
  • be flying a shallow arc close in / out.
  • Don't get too close.
  • Duck underneath and fly past (delay the gunner and get some distance).
  • Get some distance (you need more than RoF).
  • Then a climbing turn to come around again.

In FC I think the gunner is the best initial target.

If you pop him on the initial pass someone bastard will nick the kill the plane's obviously easy meat next pass.

The secret to my approach is one pass at a time.

If I bob about behind a 2 seater they never miss for long.

 

If you're in a Spad, better to be right above and attack with the old umbrella handle move.

When we get the DXII, you have to come in a bit shallower. Still an umbrella handle, just a tilted over one.

But whatever, if you fly right by the gunner will get you about every time.

 

The maps I did, the 2 seaters were generally set to 'low'.

I find this to probably be most realistic.

Not that I've any science nor experience to back that up of course.

 

S!

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If you look at how the top aces got klilled:

 

MvR: Ground fire

Mannock: Ground Fire

McElroy: Ground fire

Baracca: probably ground fire

Allmenroeder: probably ground fire

 

Lowenhardt: Collision

Rumey: Collision

Boelcke: Collision

 

McCudden: Non combat crash

Ball: Combat crash (or LvR shot him down ... IMHO unlikely)

Gontermann: Non combat crash

 

Guynemer: Two seater

Little: Three seater (Gotha)

Lufberry: Two seater

Mueller: Two seater

Schafer: Two seater

 

Voss: Fighter

Dallas: Fighter

Wolff: Fighter

Boyau: Fighter

Coiffard: Fighter

 

These are some of the top aces killed in WWI.  Odds of being killed by a two seater were as good as odds of being killed by a fighter.  Odds of being killed in a crash, collision, or ground fire are about equal to the odds of being brought down by another plane.  I wouldn't call fighters the least dangerous adversary but they weren't the most dangerous either.

 

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I think people are missing the point here.

 

We are not saying that two-seaters are not dangerous; we are saying the model is wrong. Just with the porting to FC and the new damage model, with no more folding wings and planes shaking like crazy, the dynamics of engagements in between fighters and two-seaters changed dramatically and scouts have more chances now. Although, and this is very important, people still used the 'two-seaters were dangerous' card to justify the fact that some players were having an disproportional amount of kills in multiplayer in ROF. Now we see proof that this argument is not true, since the difference now in FC is visible, yet we are not there yet.

 

We still need to fix the fact that you can fire one gun while reloading the other.

We still need to ask for weapon-mods to be very limited (this is an old model that was created to generate revenue for the devs and that turned MP into Space Invaders).

We still need to ask for gunners to not be able to fire in weird angles and maneuvers.

We still need to ask to remove the aiming sight / F16 style that the gunners gave.

We still need to ask for the mouse to control the handle of the gun, not the tip of the barrel.

We still need to ask to review G-forces to put the gunners aim off or refrain him from firing when the plane is changing directions or inverting g-loads.

We still need to ask to lock the flying and gunning thing.

 

This from the top of my heat, and I imagine that every one of those changes would alter the engagements, bringing it close to what I have been reading in books all these years.

 

So, yeah, two-seaters were dangerous, but this is not what we are talking here. We are saying that the scale is off and we see this ingame.

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I agree on most of the points. But I do not find all of them practical. Namely:

7 minutes ago, SeaW0lf said:

We still need to ask to remove the aiming sight / F16 style that the gunners gave.

This is in place with realism setting AFIR.

 

7 minutes ago, SeaW0lf said:

We still need to ask for the mouse to control the handle of the gun, not the tip of the barrel.

This is very much against how you do mouse control. It would also make the the swiveling to be separated from pointing the gun. If you would move the handle, then you would also invert the way you point the gun. In total, you‘d have an unusable gunner solution and you‘d just leave it for the AI.

 

12 minutes ago, SeaW0lf said:

We still need to ask to lock the flying and gunning thing.

This really seems to be something that gives certain individuals the creeps. Individuals that on the other hand do have fun flying together as pilot and gunner in a two seater while coordinating on Discord (or whatever). AND being smug about being bloody dangerous in doing so.

 

Fact is also that currently in FC, you can be bloody effective in fighters doing long distance shots. While AI is less affected by that, it certainly reduces the lethality of the human gunner. In the good old RoF times before ballistics, you could fly with the HP400 on autopilot through an entire furball and just zap one by one over the range of almost up to one kilometer. Today, if you are alone in a two seater and come across some of the guys lamenting here about the lethality of two seaters, you‘re dead within a minute.

 

It is true that several AI mechanics how it handles the guns are plain wrong. This needs correction, no question about it. But it is equally wrong to force other players to play to your personal liking.

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"It is not the most intellectual of the species that survives; it is not the strongest that survives; but the species that survives is the one that is able to adapt to and to adjust best to the changing environment in which it finds itself.

 

- Charles Darwin"

 

          - Michael Scott

 

 

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9 hours ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

I keep him outside my 11-1 o'clock arc and never maintain a heading.

I always consider gunner to be one-two seconds away from firing solution.

 

I'm not a good enough pilot to put all of Trupo's advice into practise in the heat of the moment and I do like to get in close:) but I feel just remembering these two points when encountering two seaters will increase your chances of success survival enormously. 

 

From this weeks Thursday night fly in.  I was feeling quite heroic until I checked my stats and realised they were both bots.:rolleyes:

 

 

 

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@Zooropa_Fly has it summed up well. 2-seaters should be dangerous if you let them be.

In practice I reckon you can only mitigate the danger. At some point he will have some sort of shot on you, it's up to you to make that the hardest shot possible for the least amount of time. Still, a single lucky bullet... But speed helps, distance helps, knowing gunner angles helps, evasive exits help.

 

It's definitely do-able, but context of engagement can change the amount of risk you have to go thru. 

 

PS: I'd also like to know where I can get the flame-proof flying kit that gunners have.

Edited by US103_Baer

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On 2/14/2020 at 2:48 AM, J5_Hellbender said:

As a workaround I would suggest not to attack two-seaters for the moment.

I agree, don't attack them, just leave them be and they won't bother you.

On 2/14/2020 at 5:42 PM, US103_Baer said:

PS: I'd also like to know where I can get the flame-proof flying kit that gunners have.

You can order from me, send me a check and I'll mail it off, soon or at some time when I get more in , going like hotcakes. 

On 2/14/2020 at 10:25 AM, SeaW0lf said:

We still need to fix the fact that you can fire one gun while reloading the other.

We still need to ask for weapon-mods to be very limited (this is an old model that was created to generate revenue for the devs and that turned MP into Space Invaders).

We still need to ask for gunners to not be able to fire in weird angles and maneuvers.

We still need to ask to remove the aiming sight / F16 style that the gunners gave.

We still need to ask for the mouse to control the handle of the gun, not the tip of the barrel.

We still need to ask to review G-forces to put the gunners aim off or refrain him from firing when the plane is changing directions or inverting g-loads.

We still need to ask to lock the flying and gunning thing.

We still need for the gunner to actually get off his ass when the enemy is on your six, 

We still need for the gunner to aim before shooting and not shoot blindly all over.

Oh by the way, you guys do know the 20th was the highest scoring squad in WWI and guess what the flew? yes 2 seaters, fe2bs and Bristol's to be exact. They flew fe2b's as escorts. So flying 2 seaters should be harder to shoot down than they are. 

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I agree that they were dangerous, like most things during the war I might add, but sure they did not fly and gunned at the same time, they did not had digital sights, the gunner pointed the gun with the handle, not the barrel (the swivel is longer with the tip of the barrel, being more accurate), the gunner aim was thrown off by g-forces, many times preventing him to fire at all, they weren’t able to fire one gun while reloading the other and in general they did not have weapon mods like people have it here.

 

So the goal is to up the realism. We might be on the same page after all, aren’t we? I’m sure Bender would love to see his Halb gun angle corrected, AIs are being worked on (great improvements so far, and I'm not sure about the shooting blindly thing, they are snipers), and this and that, but to defend these not so realistic 'perks' with the argument that they ‘were dangerous’ makes little sense to me.

 

Let them be dangerous, but rightfully so.

Edited by SeaW0lf

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How often do you fly 2 seaters and watch what the gunner is shooting at? from what I see it's  shooting no were near the enemy, The ai wastes more ammo shooting 10,000 feet behind and under as well as below the target, And for what it's worth I let the gunner do all the shooting I don't gun and drive, But if guys do how's it any different than if a real person was in the back seat? flying and gunning is not easy. 

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I engage them all the time, so I know what they do. And like I said, AI has come a long way. Since Jason said that now they have a person doing just working on the AIs, you can be sure that this is one of the few things that we are to expect to improve in this game. Then I would not be so stressed out about it. In fact I would be very optimistic about it.

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9 hours ago, NO.20_W_M_Thomson said:

We still need for the gunner to actually get off his ass when the enemy is on your six, 

We still need for the gunner to aim before shooting and not shoot blindly all over.

Oh by the way, you guys do know the 20th was the highest scoring squad in WWI and guess what the flew? yes 2 seaters, fe2bs and Bristol's to be exact. They flew fe2b's as escorts. So flying 2 seaters should be harder to shoot down than they are. 

 

8 hours ago, SeaW0lf said:

So the goal is to up the realism. We might be on the same page after all, aren’t we? I’m sure Bender would love to see his Halb gun angle corrected, AIs are being worked on (great improvements so far, and I'm not sure about the shooting blindly thing, they are snipers), and this and that, but to defend these not so realistic 'perks' with the argument that they ‘were dangerous’ makes little sense to me.

 

Let them be dangerous, but rightfully so.

 

Two-seaters in general were considered somewhat weak and in need of protection.

 

The Bristol and Halberstadt decidedly were not, but they were not typical two-seaters, but rather two-seater fighters. The gunners themselves were used in a joint aggressive/defensive role, but in no way was the Bristol a "death platform" for the gunner, in the way that Darling and I used it in RoF.

 

 

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beE6TPP.png

 

 

This was finally fixed in Flying Circus by correcting the damage model and implementing g-forces on gunners, something we'd been asking for since 2010.

 

I'd like to link back to the The Observer and Air Gunner’s Charter, but the original thread was lost in the 2011 RoF forum migration. You'll just have to take my word for it.

 

 

With this has come the fact that human gunners are no longer viable.

 

Their animations are broken, gun movement and angle has been hampered, they don't get scoring in the parser, they certainly can't perform any actual observer duties (bomb sight, radio, flare gun, bomb release) and there are no plans to implement any of this. This has been true at least since 2012.

 

https://riseofflight.com/forum/topic/32692-observers-multiplayer/?p=465111

 

 

So we are left with AI gunners, and those of us who fly two-seaters have to adapt, yet again. It's not all bad, as they are excellent at spotting both air and ground targets, and we no longer have to account for gunners taking up precious server slots which could be filled with pilots and planes.

 

Flying and gunning at the same time I've never been a fan of, but it does require a "third arm" and "second head" to do correctly, disables the front firing gun and removes the automatic spotting the AI gunner does for you — so there's no free lunch.

 

 

As @NO.20_W_M_Thomson points out, the Bristol gunner, due to being nearly unlimited in his gun angle, takes plenty of shots he can't make. As for the Halberstadt gunner, because he's very limited and fires only in the horizontal plane of the aircraft, seems to only take shots he can't miss. The lack of gun angle is obviously linked to the new gunner models, but I don't see it as a major historical error either way. The strength of the Halberstadt has always been how it was deployed in large numbers. Schlastas were 6 ship formations, and up to 4 Schlastas were joined together in a Schlagru ahead of infantry charges.

 

Now I'm not saying that having 24 Halberstadts flying together on a server is a realistic expectation, but that would be realistic. Since we have about enough players and ground targets for 4 machines, this is the magic number to me. So not even an entire Schlasta, and I always expect our losses to be catastrophic unless we have fighter cover, and they don't get bored/distracted on our way to the target. What makes up for this, is that we can also do ground attack when no one else is on, and it's easy enough to buy a second account to keep your ground streak going.

 

 

To return to the issue at hand, in my opinion only one thing needs urgent fixing: unconscious gunners should not be firing.

 

This is likely an easy fix, too, and the devs should address this as soon as another round of FC fixes is planned.

Edited by J5_Hellbender
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Sorry but I strongly disagree. G-forces does not throw their aim off nor impede them to fire, they still fire and reload the other gun, and I mentioned the angle of the Halb, which does not happen on the Bristol I believe. And regarding flying and gunning, I think it is obvious that the front gun would not fire, or else they could attach some WWII turret on it to finish the job. Regarding scores and other stuff, it is not related to combat physics, so I'll disregard these things in this conversation.

 

The gunner needs a lot of work to bring it to realism level. Plus I just recalled that for the gunner to turn the gun, in some cases he need to press a lever, then turn the gun, then release the lever and start firing again. Is this the case of the Bristol and the Halb?

 

So yes, they were dangerous and people can bring quotes and stuff, but none of them will confirm these free perks gunners have that are directly linked to combat effectiveness and that throws off game-play. Yes, these things will never be modeled in Il-2, but some are fixable. The WWII crowd also has similar complaints.

 

So why not? I know it must be a drag to fly two-seater and carry this load, but it is a reality that from time to time we have to mention even for them to perhaps consider some of the fixes.

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2 hours ago, SeaW0lf said:

G-forces does not throw their aim off nor impede them to fire, they still fire and reload the other gun, and I mentioned the angle of the Halb, which does not happen on the Bristol I believe. And regarding flying and gunning, I think it is obvious that the front gun would not fire, or else they could attach some WWII turret on it to finish the job. Regarding scores and other stuff, it is not related to combat physics, so I'll disregard these things in this conversation.
 

The gunner needs a lot of work to bring it to realism level. Plus I just recalled that for the gunner to turn the gun, in some cases he need to press a lever, then turn the gun, then release the lever and start firing again. Is this the case of the Bristol and the Halb?

 

So yes, they were dangerous and people can bring quotes and stuff, but none of them will confirm these free perks gunners have that are directly linked to combat effectiveness and that throws off game-play. Yes, these things will never be modeled in Il-2, but some are fixable. The WWII crowd also has similar complaints.

 

So why not? I know it must be a drag to fly two-seater and carry this load, but it is a reality that from time to time we have to mention even for them to perhaps consider some of the fixes.

 

AI gunners simply do not fire at all during strong maneuvers, and you need to learn exactly when to halt your maneuvering to present your gunner with a stable target.

 

As for throwing off the aim of human gunners: the same is true for scout pilots. You can stay almost glued to your gunsight during maneuvers.

 

Human gunners no longer have a floating aiming reticle either (this is a server-side setting tied to Navigation markers), and even then I just don't recommend anyone to be a human gunner these days. You lose all the actual benefits of the AI, miss out on having an extra ship in your formation and don't get anything to show for it. We're all playing the same game, in the end, there's no reason some should be rewarded for their efforts while others don't. In short: it is way, way tougher to successfully fight in a two-seater (either as a pilot or as a gunner) than it was in RoF — which is a good thing. We do have these years of experience behind us and we've learned what to do in order to throw off a scout at the very last second, or lull him into a false sense of security then have the gunner open up to him at close range etc. You can hardly blame people for getting skilled at something through practise and experience.

 

The fact of the matter is: you'll never be happy unless you're consistently winning from two-seaters, and for that the solution is simple: teamwork. I know that's not the answer you're looking for. From my end, I wouldn't mind seeing more fixes to make the gunners more realistic (the unconsciousness thing really bothers me too), but I'd also like to see some new features added rather than just nerfs to make them worse. In the end, though, it's fine to make them worse, because what goes for scouts, goes double for two-seaters: teamwork, teamwork, teamwork. Nowadays I treat my gunner as a spotter who can get a few shots in, if I'm lucky, but it's not up to him to keep me alive. That's a stark departure from how we used to fly in RoF.

 

Still, I wouldn't get too concerned until the moment comes that we see more two-seaters than scouts flying around in multiplayer. Now that would be realism.

 

 

P.S. Yes, we're still hiring! No experience needed!

Edited by J5_Hellbender

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