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HagarTheHorrible

Does Central mind me shooting at chutes ?

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7 minutes ago, US93_Larner said:


No doubt. That's the big advantage of a parachute - you can take a losing fight head-on with some level of confidence you'll survive. It's a big advantage and a valid tactic to be used. Although, honestly, I'm quite surprised that you were so confident that we'd let you sail back down to earth - I was eyeing up both parachutes before a more morally-inclined wingman waved me off. 

IMHO, being a 'nuisance factor' to flights that you likely won't win against, because you know you can bail out and survive, is a perfectly valid tactic. Shooting down said parachutes is another equally valid tactic. Tactics and counter-tactics, and all that...
 

 

Not so sure about that. It seems I can never bail when I need to....and this does not include the times that I couldn't remember where I mapped the key.

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5 minutes ago, US93_Larner said:


It's a brutal and nasty way to do it, but it's a different means to the same end - put the pilot out of the session and weaken the other team. At least for me, shooting chutes in the DiD events is "all business". 
 

 

I know that I am exaggerating (and do not take me for a pacifist/moralist, I very well understand the necessities and brutalities of war) but maybe someone should have killed all the germans after WWI. Then there would never have been a WWII.

 

A plane, even damaged, might still pose a threat to you, someone is still behind those machine guns and you do not know if he is capable of using them or not. A chute cannot fire back, unless we manage to take our spandaus with a belt of ammo when bailing out.

 

At the end it is the decision between 'I shall pull the trigger' or 'I shall not do it'. I am trying to be the latter.

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3 minutes ago, J5_Klugermann said:

 

Not so sure about that. It seems I can never bail when I need to....and this does not include the times that I couldn't remember where I mapped the key.


cfHlyFd.jpg

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21 minutes ago, US93_Larner said:


EDIT: Perfectly reasonable to be offended by it as well, though...! 


Well, I know I can not take personally being shot to ribbons in the cockpit...but in the chute it's much harder. 

Perhaps because when I had my Advanced Combat Pragmatics course under Adam we had no chutes yet ;) . Or because shooting doommed planes is time-honoured 🤧way to steal a kill, while chute killing is not.

Won't mind seeing Entente pilots jumping out end quitting mid-air, either. Like you said, a valid tactic. The interesting discrepancy in this (Entente must be high enough to save himself this way before hitting the ground, while Central  want to be low but not to low) makes things even more interesting.

And chutes are far from unfailible. In addition to opening when you already thud against the ground, you need to really fight G-forces with your wounded pilot to get out. Getting a nosing-up Dr.I into position when I could jump while thrice wounded and being shot at ain't easy way out.

Edited by J2_Trupobaw

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35 minutes ago, J2_Drookasi said:

A plane, even damaged, might still pose a threat to you, someone is still behind those machine guns and you do not know if he is capable of using them or not. A chute cannot fire back, unless we manage to take our spandaus with a belt of ammo when bailing out.

 

At the end it is the decision between 'I shall pull the trigger' or 'I shall not do it'. I am trying to be the latter.


That is true. It's also true that when those three Triplanes got me I had a stopped engine, no altitude, and the bullets didn't stop until I had spawned out! There was no hope of or opportunity to defend myself - and I think the three Bosches did exactly what they should have done in order to help their team. 

Within our little virtual realm, it's commendable that you won't shoot down a parachute as it doesn't line up with your flying morals. But, then we get into the big DiD question....what happens if you shoot a Pfalz, or an Albatros, down in flames, and the pilot bails out...only to drive you down and execute you as you try to land 30 minutes later? You certainly can't complain!

Being a little more callous and of undoubtedly questionable morals, I would prefer not to take the risk of that happening. Why toss a coin and hope it lands on "Heads" when you can place it facing that side up in your palm? 

I would expect the same courtesy (or lack thereof) to be extended to myself in a DiD setting. In general weekday flying, however....well, that's a different kettle of fish...


 

32 minutes ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

Well, I know I can not take personally being shot to ribbons in the cockpit...but in the chute it's much harder. 


Yeah, I can completely understand that! When it happens to me in FiF, I bet I'll have to take a minute before I remember that I'd do the same thing! 
 

32 minutes ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

Won't mind seeing Entente pilots jumping out end quitting mid-air, either. Like you said, a valid tactic. 


Yeah, that's another interesting aspect - for me, quite similar to Drookasi's reluctance to shoot down a parachute...chute killing is definitely valid, but for Drookasi it doesn't line up with his morals within the virtual skies. Similarly, bailing out with no parachute and finishing in air is a perfectly valid tactic, but it doesn't line up with my historical "Ruleset" for flying. Historically, the Entente pilots had to ride their planes all the way down, to whatever end....so I do the same. And if I do jump, I let myself fall all the way! 


Fmwb4N0l.png

 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

By the way, I just wanna point out (just in case) that I'm not trying to butt heads with anybody here, and that I actually find this discussion really fascinating! 

Edited by US93_Larner

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I was just writing that, in the end, we should actively avoid being d*ck to each other. There is about 400 of us flying online by most generous interpretation of J5 stats page (including WW2 tourists) - so we not only share something very rare with each other, but each of us is very hard to replace when made to ragequit. But Tablot said it better and using fewer words.

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Larner, shoot me anytime when falling (you surely already do while I'm flying...)

 

During the civil wars in feudal Japan, an invading army would quickly sweep into a town and take control. In one particular village, everyone fled just before the army arrived - everyone except the Zen master. Curious about this old fellow, the general went to the temple to see for himself what kind of man this master was. When he wasn't treated with the deference and submissiveness to which he was accustomed, the general burst into anger.
"You fool," he shouted as he reached for his sword, "don't you realize you are standing before a man who could run you through without blinking an eye!"
But despite the threat, the master seemed unmoved.
"And do you realize," the master replied calmly, "that you are standing before a man who can be run through without blinking an eye?"

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That must have been before emotional detachment was considered a form of self-mutilation, Bidu 😀.

Edited by J2_Trupobaw

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1 hour ago, US93_Larner said:

By the way, I just wanna point out (just in case) that I'm not trying to butt heads with anybody here, and that I actually find this discussion really fascinating! 

 

It is really a discussion you might have with a friend while having some drinks (not to many of them), one of those discussions that might offer you a bit of wisdom. Cheers to that!

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I suppose the friendliest way to add balance in a DiD campaign would be for the developers to allow for a server admin time lock for pilots bailing out, so they can’t jump straight back in, with their just acquired knowledge, which makes tactical gameplay a bit silly.  Bailing out in a campaign should reflect, to a certain extent, the delay, unless you bail over your own airfield obviously, that a real pilot would incur, and not just allow immediate re-planing.  It would at least dent the argument (quiet valid) about shooting chutes in DiD affairs and might save a lot of sour sausages between players.

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1 hour ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

That must have been before emotional detachment was considered a form of self-mutilation, Bidu 😀.

 

The forum itself is forcing my emotional detachment: I'm forced to cheat it with explicit emoticon post such as this:

 

😅

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1 hour ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

I suppose the friendliest way to add balance in a DiD campaign would be for the developers to allow for a server admin time lock for pilots bailing out, so they can’t jump straight back in, with their just acquired knowledge, which makes tactical gameplay a bit silly.  Bailing out in a campaign should reflect, to a certain extent, the delay, unless you bail over your own airfield obviously, that a real pilot would incur, and not just allow immediate re-planing.  It would at least dent the argument (quiet valid) about shooting chutes in DiD affairs and might save a lot of sour sausages between players.


Yeah, agree! 

It could be one of the "Honor Rules" (no vulching fields, take your time-outs accordingly, etc) that bailers have an extended wait, without being able to immediately relay info to their teams and, like you say, would make shooting parachutes not quite so compelling...

...of course, that would then mean that anyone who does want to take the brutally efficient approach of removing a pilot from the enemy team might just cause more insult...

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I like degree of freedom to my actions, and decide how I would play and be aware how this community would reflect on that.  Be chivalrous and let you go wounded in beaten up crate or not so and drop the fight in first  sign of disadvantage to run away to own side just to bail out and save the steak or perhaps cruel by  shooting crippled enemy as bad as possible straight to the ground , to pointless degree as mad man would do. And many more in between situations... The buity of variety. No need rules for  those, they are not exploits. 

 

Edited by 1PL-Husar-1Esk
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39 minutes ago, US93_Larner said:


Yeah, agree! 

It could be one of the "Honor Rules" (no vulching fields, take your time-outs accordingly, etc) that bailers have an extended wait, without being able to immediately relay info to their teams and, like you say, would make shooting parachutes not quite so compelling...

...of course, that would then mean that anyone who does want to take the brutally efficient approach of removing a pilot from the enemy team might just cause more insult...

 

ATM we treat chutes same way as ditches. There is an argument for chuting bringing longer penalty - ditching pilot has some control over where he comes down, chuting pilot can end up anywhere (before we even factor in thatthese chutes were not very controllable and WW1 pilots were not trained parachutists). 

 

But, otoh, I believe either chute killing should be forbidden under the same Honour Rules, or we should drop the Honour part of the name ;).  

Edited by J2_Trupobaw

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The lack of consequences certainly perverts the risk/reward balance of behaviour.  Players would be far more aware of position, advantage and SA if the risk of focusing on and following an opponent down was greater, but then there’s not really much that can be done on that score.  It would have saved an awful lot of heated exchanges during, and after, the war, about  kill tallies if, instead of reporting an enemy aircraft “driven down”  they had been carefree enough to harry their opponents into the ground rather than maintain the sanctuary of altitude.

 

It would be great to have a ”Claims” board and only at the end of each month the real figure is then released, by the server, so we can compare the two and have a laugh at comparing our scores against our imagined successes.

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24 minutes ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

But, otoh, I believe either chute killing should be forbidden under the same Honour Rules, or we should drop the Honour part of the name ;).  

 

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT86Tdii1bufUbDPM0WFEX

 

 

10 minutes ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

It would be great to have a ”Claims” board and only at the end of each month the real figure is then released, by the server, so we can compare the two and have a laugh at comparing our scores against our imagined successes.


We've got our own scoreboard with claiming rules for our Squadron Nights...the main rules are that no parsers or video evidence are allowed when confirming / denying victory claims...

....I can think of at least one occasion where the EA Definitely did NOT go down, but the pilot got his claim because we all thought we saw him crash! 

Edited by US93_Larner

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46 minutes ago, J28w-Broccoli said:

Since the US###'s are an RP squadron, their CO's should set an official policy on chute killing.

 

giphy-17.gif

 

 

We literally have two orders:

 

1. Don't die

2. Kill the hun

 

One can easily extrapolate where chute shooting comes in....

Edited by US213_Talbot

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93rd Aero Squadron, General Order No. 5: 

"Shooting of Parachutes is hereby prohibited for the sole reason of obtaining creative screenshots"

bIXwzoP.jpg

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3 hours ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

I suppose the friendliest way to add balance in a DiD campaign would be for the developers to allow for a server admin time lock for pilots bailing out, so they can’t jump straight back in, with their just acquired knowledge, which makes tactical game play a bit silly.  Bailing out in a campaign should reflect, to a certain extent, the delay, unless you bail over your own airfield obviously, that a real pilot would incur, and not just allow immediate re-planing.  It would at least dent the argument (quiet valid) about shooting chutes in DiD affairs and might save a lot of sour sausages between players.

 

Yes, it would be very nice  to be able to have a timeout after death or capture. So far the current server death penalty options have added effects depending on what you want to do with game play. Back in the RB3D days when Flanders in Flames was started, it was a sincere DiD tournament. You died and you were out for the rest of the session. With RoF, you have the option of being a gunner, the rules were modified so that if you die as a pilot you can not pilot a plane again in that session. You can be a gunner and die as many times as you want.

 

If you survive being shot down and are not captured, you can pilot a plane again but after a five minute time out. Why a five minute time out? You are a bomber pilot attacking a target near an enemy base. You are attacked and shoot down the enemy plane. He lands safely and is not killed. You basically have won air superiority in that area. We do not want the shot down pilot grabbing a new plane and running right back at you.  The perverse incentive here is to have dropped a bomb on the enemy plane as he landed. Pilots and planes are limited. Killing both takes away from the enemy for this session. Uhm  same thing for an enemy in a chute.

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2 hours ago, US93_Larner said:

93rd Aero Squadron, General Order No. 5: 

"Shooting of Parachutes is hereby prohibited for the sole reason of obtaining creative screenshots"

bIXwzoP.jpg

 Oh look!  Larner made a flower,  or a mushroom,  or a doily,  or a circus tent, or a.....

 

  It took me a sec to figure out what the black crescent was. Pretty cool the way the plane spiraled down around the chute. Very interesting screenie Larner.

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13 hours ago, US213_Talbot said:

I hate everyone in here.

 

But not me Talbo, surely. I even clicked on laugh to show my appreciation and friendship.

 

12 hours ago, US213_Talbot said:

Just kidding guys.

 

Hang on, I take that back you bastard!

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11 hours ago, catchov said:

But not me Talbo, surely. I even clicked on laugh to show my appreciation and friendship.


L O L! I'll have to click on laugh to show my appreciation and friendship for that one! 

Edited by US93_Larner

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Was doing some reading, Time/Life books circa 1980 "The epic of flight"....

And I quote:

For all it's ferocity, the battle over the Channel (English) was fought with a surprising amount of old-fashioned chivalry. In one action, a pair of ME 109 pilots shot Pilot officer John Simpson's Hurricane to pieces off the coast of southern England; Simpson, wounded in the foot went over the side at 16,000 ft. and pulled the ripcord. Strong winds drove him towards land, and as he drifted helplessly to earth the British pilot saw that one of the German fliers was circling him. Simpson knew the rules: Pilots who parachuted over their own territory were considered fair game - they would land and fly again. The German pilot tightened his circle until Simpson could make out the details of the other's face. The Britisher braced himself for the brief burst of machine-gun and cannon fire that would end his life, but the German waved, and suddenly the Messerschmitt was gone. Simpson safely landed in a cucumber patch.

  On another occasion, Luftwaffe pilot Erich Rudorffer dueled unsuccessfully with some Hurricanes over Dover, then broke off combat and headed his Me 109 back across the channel. He spotted a Hurricane flying the opposite direction trailing a long plume of whit smoke. " I flew up along side him," Rudorffer recalled after the war, "and escorted him all the way back to England and then waved good-by. A few weeks later the same thing happened to me. That would never have happened in Russia- never"

 

For what it's worth.....KB

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‘That would never have happened in Russia- never"

 

I expect it wouldn’t have happened over England a couple of years later either, although there are always exceptions.

 

 I think, during BoB, there was still a sense of innocence among most of the pilots, war tends to eat away at that fairly quickly.  Bomber command started the war dropping leaflets and bringing bombs home, rather than risk civilian casualties, but ended it bombing mass population centres, it’s all you really need to know about the effect war has on the participants.

 

If you had shown MvR the quote of his, mentioned earlier in this thread, a couple of years earlier In his career, he probably wouldn’t have believed, in a million years, that he would have acted in such a manner.

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Yes, these accounts are I believe in the 1940's which is in the beginning of the war. After the bombings of cities, and the whole nasty business of war, people did get more on the "nasty" side.

I just ran across this article last night, tho I have had these books a couple life times. Thought it would be interesting here.

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This isn't war.  We are grown men playing a game; and people will always find some reasoning to justify their petty actions.

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2 hours ago, Knarley-Bob said:

  On another occasion, Luftwaffe pilot Erich Rudorffer dueled unsuccessfully with some Hurricanes over Dover, then broke off combat and headed his Me 109 back across the channel. He spotted a Hurricane flying the opposite direction trailing a long plume of whit smoke. " I flew up along side him," Rudorffer recalled after the war, "and escorted him all the way back to England and then waved good-by. A few weeks later the same thing happened to me. That would never have happened in Russia- never"

Given that the 109 had a notoriously limited range at that time, this sounds unlikely.  Which isn't a dig at you, KB, just an observation that we can perhaps take some war stories with a pinch of salt.

 

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Really this thread is not so much about shooting at chutes, or the ethics of war, there’s loads of threads about that and really we shouldn’t be bound by someone else’s possible code of conduct, that were defined by very real consequences, but simply by our own sense of fair play and consideration for a group, of like minded people, who join up every now and again to share their hobby,  This thread, or my OP, is actually more about, what might be perceived as, double standards.  If some Central players think it admissible to continue to attack opponents, who are clearly about to crash or are actually in the process of touching down, in a stricken aircraft, then it shouldn’t be considered any more inadmissible to shoot at chutes if playing on the Entente side, if a player felt so inclined.

Edited by HagarTheHorrible
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2 hours ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

Really this thread is not so much about shooting at chutes, or the ethics of war, there’s loads of threads about that and really we shouldn’t be bound by someone else’s possible code of conduct, that were defined by very real consequences, but simply by our own sense of fair play and consideration for a group, of like minded people, who join up every now and again to share their hobby,  This thread, or my OP, is actually more about, what might be perceived as, double standards.  If some Central players think it admissible to continue to attack opponents, who are clearly about to crash or are actually in the process of touching down, in a stricken aircraft, then it shouldn’t be considered any more inadmissible to shoot at chutes if playing on the Entente side, if a player felt so inclined.

With that said, it must be permissible. Case and point when I got strafed while landing a stricken aircraft by the "Game" it's self with an AI 110. As far as chutes, I don't wait until I hit the ground to exit.

On FC, I have yet to see a chute.

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On 2/11/2020 at 6:25 AM, J2_Trupobaw said:

If it's for the ones received in combat, it better be Purple Phallus with Bite Marks!

 
And burn marks lol

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17 hours ago, Adam said:

 
And burn marks lol

It seemed like the “Blue Max” had a new competitor, this is the "Blue Klu" 🙂 IMG_7651.thumb.PNG.3222c5642177f7e693bf84f0a4df222d.PNG

I did not use the original image of the new award, for well-known reasons 😉

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4 hours ago, J5_Klugermann said:

Hey Cpl Adam, how goes it ?  You gonna fly tonight ?


Same old story Klugermann, by the time I would get online, everyone Will have left, so what’s the point? Ya know what I mean?

I’ll  just make skins I guess

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