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Panther tank damage model


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16 hours ago, Voidhunger said:

Again Im not shure if this hit to the panther gun mantlet by 122mm HE shell will cause total destruction of the tank.

It looks like it was deflected to the commanders cupola, but I think in worst scenario, cupola will be shot off and commander killed or the turret roof will collapse killing all the crew in the turret. Not the fatal destruction of the tank.

 

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To me that shell would likely not even hit the cupola. If you draw a line through its center point on the long axis of the shell, it looks like it should strike the top of the gun mantlet at a point where it has a very high curvature. A 122 mm HE round might cause percussion/shock damage to the lightly armored top, but most of the blasts energy should be deflected up at least 30 degrees away from the turret roof.

 

Someone else correctly pointed out here that the number of pictures showing turret separation due to internal detonation is relatively small. But it seems to happen with the current damage model too frequently.

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BTW what type of shell is SU122 using as default. Is the heat shell also traceless like the HE ?

 

I have never had a problem facing SU122, but after recent update/updates I cant survive front hit to the turret or glacis in Panther tank even on 1200m and probably more.

I survived once hit to the glacis of panther, but the gun traverse and elevation was severely damaged. I didnt tested Tiger against HE 122 projectile yet.

 

I know they are large and heavy projectiles but I think Panther and Tiger should be able to survive few hits to the front with HE 122m projectile?

Or am I wrong?

I would expect in worse scenario, damaged tank components, wounded crew, disabled engine, or armor spalling/cracking, but complete loss of the tank every time? or almost every time?

Strange is that I can survive few hits to the panther glacis from SU152 HE shells and not the 122m.

Edited by Voidhunger
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While myself is busy testing the panther against shermans and t-34s and somehow the AI can kill the panther frontally with ease when engaging from 600meters and longer distances, often with the first shot, and they always aim on the turret at what I suspect is a weakspot that the AI always aim for, but when engaging at closer range the armour works and can survive a lot of hits....
 

 

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Just now, SCG_judgedeath3 said:

While myself is busy testing the panther against shermans and t-34s and somehow the AI can kill the panther frontally with ease when engaging from 600meters and longer distances, often with the first shot, and they always aim on the turret at what I suspect is a weakspot that the AI always aim for, but when engaging at closer range the armour works and can survive a lot of hits....
 

 

Im playing with the Panther a lot and 99% of the frontal kills from 76mm rounds are when the enemy shells hits the lower part of the gun mantlet, deflecting the round down to the hull roof.

In recent updates, they reduced it somewhat and they also reduced AI accuracy with some shots.

Its noticeable and Its improvement.

Im pretty satisfied how is 152mm round modeled against Panther frontal armor, mainly AP round, but the 122mm HE round is overkill.

If I can somewhat survive hit from the 122mm HE round Im dissabled from further combat and the second round is certain kill.

But in 99% they can kill me frontally from 1200-1400m with just one HE round, to the hull front or the turret.

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So Im here again, so frustrated with the SU122 firepower I decided to try Ferdinand,

to my surprise from distance 1200-1400m one 122mm round hit my front superstructure armor, Ferdinand started to burn, optics destroyed, crew wounded, maybe someone killed.

I know there is a engine below the gun and some shrapnels could damage, destroy the engine, but again I think that damage is to big for just one round.

I have tested some mission and cant survive one or two 122m hits from that distance.

Overall Ferdinand was dead. Second round hit the roof of the superstructure and that was the end. At that angle I thought that the second round will ricochet.

 

 

 

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On 10/6/2020 at 2:53 PM, Voidhunger said:

BTW what type of shell is SU122 using as default. Is the heat shell also traceless like the HE ?

 

I have never had a problem facing SU122, but after recent update/updates I cant survive front hit to the turret or glacis in Panther tank even on 1200m and probably more.

I survived once hit to the glacis of panther, but the gun traverse and elevation was severely damaged. I didnt tested Tiger against HE 122 projectile yet.

 

I know they are large and heavy projectiles but I think Panther and Tiger should be able to survive few hits to the front with HE 122m projectile?

Or am I wrong?

I would expect in worse scenario, damaged tank components, wounded crew, disabled engine, or armor spalling/cracking, but complete loss of the tank every time? or almost every time?

Strange is that I can survive few hits to the panther glacis from SU152 HE shells and not the 122m.

 

 

5 hours ago, Voidhunger said:

So Im here again, so frustrated with the SU122 firepower I decided to try Ferdinand,

to my surprise from distance 1200-1400m one 122mm round hit my front superstructure armor, Ferdinand started to burn, optics destroyed, crew wounded, maybe someone killed.

I know there is a engine below the gun and some shrapnels could damage, destroy the engine, but again I think that damage is to big for just one round.

I have tested some mission and cant survive one or two 122m hits from that distance.

Overall Ferdinand was dead. Second round hit the roof of the superstructure and that was the end. At that angle I thought that the second round will ricochet.

 

I am able to duplicate what you are seeing. The SU-122  knocked out both the Ferdinand and the Panther with a single connecting shot at 1400m, each three times in a row. It usually took 2 to 3 shots before the SU-122 hit its target though.

 

This doesn't seem to be at all accurate, or possible. Considering the Panther has an effective frontal armor of between 150 - 170 mm, it is hard to believe that the SU-122 can knock it out with a single hit 3x in a row, even more unlikely is that it could do the same against the Ferdinand.

 

I could not find a lot of data on the BP-460A round, but what I did seems to match the specs given in-game. I read one report that did not specify distance, but said an SU-122 hit a Tiger turret 6x without penetrating it. Most of the information I can find suggests that its HE round was not effective against armored vehicles, and that the HEAT round developed for this purpose was low quality and failed to meet expectations. Also, 1400 m was considered a long shot in terms of being able to hit the target accurately.

 

It seems that the simulation of the SU-122's gun should be adjusted in order to be more realistic.

 

I thought this was a nice overview of the vehicle: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjBu7resqvsAhXvUN8KHQ91CvMQFjAAegQIAxAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.the-ancients.com%2Fgemigabok%2Fsu-122-assault-gun%2F&usg=AOvVaw33luix0bp2U2EtQif3sEl5

 

 

"The standard HE fragmentation shell contained 3.67 kg of explosives and was a devastating weapon against infantry, field emplacements and soft-skinned vehicles. Upon impact it shattered into 2000 to 2500 fragments with an initial velocity of 1000 to 1500 meters per second. Most sources say that the HE shell was ineffective against armor but others claim that it nevertheless caused considerable damage due to the shock of the impact which caused a spalling effect inside the target tank.

 

However that may be, the Russians decided to put a HEAT round into production for the howitzer, with the designation BP-460A. Apparently the round was not of high quality and it did not make the SU-122 an effective tank destroyer. No penetration data for either round seems to be readily available. At any rate the howitzer’s low muzzle velocity undoubtedly made hitting moving targets a difficult proposition."

 

 

     

Thought I would add this out of interest: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi8xdWvvKvsAhWudN8KHerqByYQFjAAegQIARAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.panzer-war.com%2Fpage58.html&usg=AOvVaw1SGKyxLlaGkN6RztuMsrj0

Edited by LachenKrieg
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  • 4 weeks later...

Good job with the new update!

 

 

but since there were no changes to damage model in the latest update im providing some battle accounts.

When the AP round penetrate the German tanks from every side in the game there is always catastrophic explosion.

I can penetrate from the front Russian tanks sometimes with 5 rounds (no ricochets) and the tanks are smoking, burning, crew escaping.

Not in German tank. Also it would be nice to have something similar to new wobbling effect we have in planes. When the crew is wounded, shocked, by the impacts, penetrations.

(at least in allied tanks since its impossible too survive penetrating hit in German tanks 😉).

 

Even with lots of ammo inside the German tanks, in real life there was not always catastrofic explosion after the first round.

Even the Wittmans tiger didnt blow up immediately when was hit.

 

I hope we can have some changes until TC is officially released, because honestly it looks bad and its immersion killer

 

 

 

 

Shortly thereafter, Loritz’s tank [Tiger 331] was hit and destroyed from short range. The first round landed in the turret and must have killed the entire crew or at least have badly wounded them, because none of the hatches were opening. Seconds went by. A second hit, this time in the engine compartment. The gasoline caught on fire!

Engulfed in a sea of flames, the Tiger burned out accompanied by numerous explosions with its entire crew onboard. Both rage and sorrow accompanied this message of bad news for the company—it had lost one of its best!

 

OneTiger, that of SS-Unterscharführer Oberhuber, was penetrated on the driver’s side by a flank shot from an antitank gun. The crew bailed out; the driver was killed and the radio operator lost an arm.

 

Tiger 232 was penetrated by direct hits from two antitank guns.SS-Unterscharführer Moldenhauer and his gunner were killed immediately. The badly wounded radio operator jumped out of the tank and was captured. The driver kept his wits about him, pulled out of the column at high speed and returned to the assembly area,where the badly wounded loader could later be recovered.

 

We had barely hit the Englishman when, an antitank gun—probably a 75 mm PaK— firing at the Englishman hit us instead. It hit us in the left between the track and the running gear. The round penetrated and sliced the seat right out from under my backside. I found myself on the turret floor. At the same time, the round tore open a shell casing and the propellant charge ignited in a jet of flame. There was nothing for us to do but to bail out, and quick. The radio operator, loader and tank commander were the first ones out.

 

The lead tank, Tiger 222, was penetrated three times by a 6-pounder when it rounded a curve. The antitank gun was firing newly introduced sub-caliber sabot rounds from virtually pointblank range. The Tiger caught on fire, but the crew was able to bailout.

 

There is also the well known account of Helmut Wendorffs tiger which was knocked out by a Sherman.

The round penetrated probably the turret killing loader and commander. Driver escaped, trapped radio operator commited suicide and the gunner was rescued.

 

and of course the Cologne panther which took 3 hits and some of the crew manage to escape.

 

 

 

Edited by Voidhunger
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  • 2 weeks later...
22 hours ago, LachenKrieg said:

It doesn't look like there were any changes made to these munitions between WWII and the Korean war. Given how frequent changes occurred due to continuous testing, I am surprised.  

 

The soviets have probably dumped the old ww2 ammunition stores to their n.korean allies because its "good enough" while leaving the latest toys for themselves. 

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It may have been good enough, but it still shouldn't be able to punch through the 6 to 7 inches of steel on the Panther's slopped front. Especially not at 1400m. If the Devs want to water down the mechanics a little for the sake of game play, I wonder if they could restrict the watered down settings to just the "NORMAL" mode, and keep the "EXPERT" setting for more realistic mechanics? I prefer that things are as close to real as possible.

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29 minutes ago, LachenKrieg said:

It may have been good enough, but it still shouldn't be able to punch through the 6 to 7 inches of steel on the Panther's slopped front. Especially not at 1400m. If the Devs want to water down the mechanics a little for the sake of game play, I wonder if they could restrict the watered down settings to just the "NORMAL" mode, and keep the "EXPERT" setting for more realistic mechanics? I prefer that things are as close to real as possible.

Maybe the su122 can go through the frontal upper plate on long range (1400m) because of bullet drop?

Because bullet drop increases with range so does the angle the shell will hit an tank with sloped armor (on an armor plate that's aimed upward like the panthers frontal upper plate) this again reduces the amount of mm of armor the shell will have to go through and since heat doesn't loose penetration over range it would become more affective against the frontal upper plate on long range.

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11 minutes ago, 1stCL/rudidlo said:

There is more issues, like when going over the tent in tank, you will get dead engine and machine gunner.

I assume TC could be released Q1/2021-ish.

Jason already announced on the skins and templates section the game will be officially released this friday.

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1 hour ago, Voidhunger said:

After the new update SU122 HE rounds were toned down. I can survive some hits in Panther of tiger. Sometimes there is a wounded crew member, dead engine or damaged parts of the tank. Now it feels believable to me.

Yep, also noticed that fighting against AI T-34s and shermans cant anymore kill one super easily frontally, before the first couple of shots landing on the gun mantlet caused the tank to explode, but now I can often have the AI run out of ammo before they damage me frontally in the panther. Shot traps cans till happen but its now a rare thing so its a huge improvment :)

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2 hours ago, ww2fighter20 said:

Maybe the su122 can go through the frontal upper plate on long range (1400m) because of bullet drop?

Because bullet drop increases with range so does the angle the shell will hit an tank with sloped armor (on an armor plate that's aimed upward like the panthers frontal upper plate) this again reduces the amount of mm of armor the shell will have to go through and since heat doesn't loose penetration over range it would become more affective against the frontal upper plate on long range.

Well maybe that is a good point, but it was doing that with the thicker less slopped armor on the Ferdinand as well. But Voidhunger and SCG_J have seen improvements in this area so that is a really good thing. I will have to check it out and see for myself.

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9 hours ago, SCG_judgedeath3 said:

Yep, also noticed that fighting against AI T-34s and shermans cant anymore kill one super easily frontally, before the first couple of shots landing on the gun mantlet caused the tank to explode, but now I can often have the AI run out of ammo before they damage me frontally in the panther. Shot traps cans till happen but its now a rare thing so its a huge improvment :)

Yes that was corected in one of the previous update

2 hours ago, Goosevich said:

This friday? This is gonna be embarassing 😕

TC like BOX is never finished. There is a solid playable core and new things will come.

Like i said previously, BOX and ROF were too "unfinished" in our view on release and look at them now.

I hope that developers know what we want.

It would be nice if Jason or Han can share their vision or road map after the new year.

What can be done/improved for tanks in current engine. (More detailed map, more detailed QMB, grass visibility from longer distances, simple time slider in menu for disappearing objects, better/quicker command view, improved damage model, graphic effects, AI etc)

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5 hours ago, Voidhunger said:

...TC like BOX is never finished. There is a solid playable core and new things will come.

Like i said previously, BOX and ROF were too "unfinished" in our view on release and look at them now.

I hope that developers know what we want.

It would be nice if Jason or Han can share their vision or road map after the new year.

What can be done/improved for tanks in current engine. (More detailed map, more detailed QMB, grass visibility from longer distances, simple time slider in menu for disappearing objects, better/quicker command view, improved damage model, graphic effects, AI etc)

I think Goosevich's point was more that he would prefer to see a more finished product on release as opposed to guessing how it might be improved over time. Can't say I blame him.

 

For me, I am happy to support a quality product, but get a little nervous when I see one with so many outstanding issues go from early access to final release. I don't have the experience here you do, so my confidence in what to expect after hearing the news was a little shaken to say the least. I am happy to stand behind your experience and wait, but I have also read comments from other forum members with as long a history that were less optimistic. So I guess I'm waiting.

 

Tank Crew has all the makings to become the gold standard in WWII AFV simulation, and if putting it up on steam will speed up getting there, then get it going. But its just that being predominantly known as a flight sim, its hard to tell at times if they know just how much potential Tank Crew has and how much better it could be, or if they even care.

 

On the upside, the most recent patch saw some nice touches to the models, and along with others, you have noticed improvements with the damage model, so I am now waiting and hopeful.

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Basically what LachenKrieg said.

 All i want to add is - yeah i know how modern IL-2 started etc, but the new playerbase won't be happy about the product that in fact is an alpha build slowly entering beta stage. There's barely any content apart from gorgeous tank models. AI is braindead and will force players to stop giving a crap about the sim, MP scene is really small and singleplayer content itself is almost nonexistent (i'm not even touching on bugs and rather horrendous UX and a lack of proper tutorials) and the price point - oh boy the reviews will be salty i feel.
Please note i didn't try the newest patch but i doubt it will change my mind which is sad since i crave for a proper finished ww2 tank sim and i still have a glimpse of hope for TC.

Edited by Goosevich
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