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Flying Circus Vol 2 plane ideas

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Bloody April makes much more sense and has some legendary planes. The ones Bender mentioned are the ones people shrug off. So to sell a pack with N28, Pfalz D12 and Hanriot specially would be a challenge in my view. And they would have to review the N28 I think to make any sense, because it might be the most despised plane of the ROF roster.

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26 minutes ago, SeaW0lf said:

Bloody April makes much more sense and has some legendary planes. The ones Bender mentioned are the ones people shrug off. So to sell a pack with N28, Pfalz D12 and Hanriot specially would be a challenge in my view. And they would have to review the N28 I think to make any sense, because it might be the most despised plane of the ROF roster.

 

I would be ecstatic about a Hanriot, obviously, but even the N28 is a plane I've come to appreciate over the years, which has mostly come after getting my pilot's license and learning more about aerodynamics in the process. It was clearly their intention to have it be a WWI F-104 Starfighter, and a sort of Diet SPAD, which made sense in the early planeset (D.VII, D.Va, SPAD, N28). While it does have relatively high wing loading and thus should have good instantaneous turn and poor sustained turn, and  it has other qualities as well, such as climb and roll, it was probably never any worse than the Albatros in any respect. Then again, nothing was.

 

In any case: no, one is waiting on the N28.

 

Edited by J5_Hellbender
sneaky comma

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4 minutes ago, J5_Hellbender said:

In any case: no, one is waiting on the N28.

 

😁😄😁

 

 

But I've read more than once that some squadrons did not want to leave the N28 because it was very maneuverable or something likes it. So I don’t think it was the flying brick we have in ROF.

 

I've grown fond of the D8, but it is somewhat fast, maneuverable and climbs like an elevator. Although I think it would be eaten alive but the FC Camel. The other ones I consider niche planes. I’m not sure how the Hanriot came to life, but there are so many other planes that could have been done instead. On this regard, the community sometimes gets too dorky for my taste 😉

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2 hours ago, SeaW0lf said:

But I've read more than once that some squadrons did not want to leave the N28 because it was very maneuverable or something likes it. So I don’t think it was the flying brick we have in ROF.

 

Maneuverable could have meant good instantaneous turn, and good overall handling, which it does have. I'm not completely sold, though, in my opinion it suffers from the same unrefined early FM as all the Central inlines: lack of pronounced sharp stall. Only it also doesn't hold a sustained turn, like, at all.

 

I've had endless discussions about this plane, and the conclusion is almost always the same: it's probably for the best that it's not better than how it's been modeled in RoF, or everyone would be flying it instead of the SPAD / Camel.

 

Quote

I've grown fond of the D8, but it is somewhat fast, maneuverable and climbs like an elevator. Although I think it would be eaten alive but the FC Camel. The other ones I consider niche planes. I’m not sure how the Hanriot came to life, but there are so many other planes that could have been done instead. On this regard, the community sometimes gets too dorky for my taste 😉

 

The D.VIII is the Central Dolphin. They both handle similarly (though they couldn't possibly be more different planes), are both jack-of-all-trades and they shine as teamplanes. No match for the Camel, obviously.

 

The Hanriot came with the Channel map and it was the mainstay Belgian fighter for 1918. The Italians flew it, too. It's probably the plane which many of us wanted the Nieuport 28 to be, but which the Nieuport 28 isn't: the true successor to the Nieuport 17. It handles much like it, but with (almost) the same engine as the Camel. It's great, definitely my favourite Entente scout for flying around, though I'm extremely biased. Forward visibility and firepower are bad, though, but it's still a "consummate fighter": it's faster than and can outclimb everything it can't outturn (Albatros D.Va, Pfalz), and it can outturn everything that is faster than or climbs better than it (Fokker D.VIII, Fokker D.VIIF, Pfalz D.XII), so you're never "dead by default".

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16 minutes ago, J5_Hellbender said:

I've had endless discussions about this plane, and the conclusion is almost always the same: it's probably for the best that it's not better than how it's been modeled in RoF, or everyone would be flying it instead of the SPAD / Camel.

 

The problem is, the way it is, no one wants to fly it. I'm no scholar on the N28, but from what I read, it is not suppose to be a 'slow Spad', which makes it even less appealing. And from the back of my head, the Hanriot is way worse than the Dolphin. 10km/h slower, turns bad, poorly armed. I rather fly the Dolphin 10 times out of 10. A Dolphin vs Fokker D.VIII seems to be an interesting match, while I think the D.VIII will mop the floor with the Hanriot. Never tryed those duels in ROF though.

 

Perhaps just the D12 and the D8 have some appeal and a niche strong enough to create some ripples, but the N28 and the Hanriot is just heavy ballast (both from the same side) for the vast majority of players. A module with these planes would be a hard sell in my opinion.

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On 2/1/2020 at 3:33 AM, JG1_Butzzell said:

S!

 

my turn.

 

FC Vol 2 "The battle of Verdun"  ( new map )

 

DH2, N-11, N-17, Pup, Tripe, SPAD 7, RE8,    Fok E3, Halb D2, Alb D2, Alb D3, DFW and Roland Cl.2.

 

 

 

This gives enough basic planes to cover the time line of the war.

 

I'd be very happy with that. And Zeppelins. And Channel map. 

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5 hours ago, SeaW0lf said:

The problem is, the way it is, no one wants to fly it. I'm no scholar on the N28, but from what I read, it is not suppose to be a 'slow Spad', which makes it even less appealing. And from the back of my head, the Hanriot is way worse than the Dolphin. 10km/h slower, turns bad, poorly armed. I rather fly the Dolphin 10 times out of 10. A Dolphin vs Fokker D.VIII seems to be an interesting match, while I think the D.VIII will mop the floor with the Hanriot. Never tryed those duels in ROF though.

 

Perhaps just the D12 and the D8 have some appeal and a niche strong enough to create some ripples, but the N28 and the Hanriot is just heavy ballast (both from the same side) for the vast majority of players. A module with these planes would be a hard sell in my opinion.


Complemented with new planes, such as the SS D.IV, Fokker D.VI (Dr.I/D.VII hybrid), Snipe and Bentley Camel, I’m sure it would sell well — but that’s making a lot of assumptions in terms of budget and willingness to develop brand new content. And as always, when you “assume”, you make an “ass” out of “u” and “me”.

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7 hours ago, SeaW0lf said:

And from the back of my head, the Hanriot is way worse than the Dolphin.

On a side note, our in game Dolphin is too slow, it should at least have the speed of the SE5a. I have no idea how they came up with the speeds we have in game. There is also no explanation for the speed difference (11 km/h) stated in wiki. Fixed pitch propeller aircraft are almost never limited in airspeed through drag. They are limited by the choice of their propeller. Only racers were drag limited. This produced high powered aircraft that could hardly take off.

 

The Hanriot will just turn better at lower speeds, else be the slower aircraft. In RoF the Hanriot is great and stands a chance against anything except the Dr.I. Most notably due to the slow, lefthand climbing turn it inherited from the N17.

 

7 hours ago, SeaW0lf said:

D.VIII will mop the floor with the Hanriot.

They are for practical purposes equally powered. The Fokker has the advantage of 100 less weight though. But it should really come down to pilot abilities.

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1 minute ago, ZachariasX said:

They are for practical purposes equally powered. The Fokker has the advantage of 100 less weight though. But it should really come down to pilot abilities.

 

The Hanriot does not turn as well, and then I think it is hard to believe.

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The Hanriot has wires, wires and more wires between the wings. D.VIII has so little drag it feels overpowered even with 110hp Oberusel (RoF.D.VIII, in particular, could overrev the engine while flying on level autopilot). 

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ROF Hanriot is very good , new class after Camel loosing it's power in December 15 patch.

 

Edited by 1PL-Husar-1Esk
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3 hours ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

The Hanriot has wires, wires and more wires between the wings. D.VIII has so little drag it feels overpowered even with 110hp Oberusel (RoF.D.VIII, in particular, could overrev the engine while flying on level autopilot). 

For the game (RoF), for sure. In the real world it is not really like that. RoF in many ways deviates from the teal thing. In IL2 it has gotten a lot better. But here, it is very certain that you are mentioning what can be considered sim artifact. 

 

Wires have much less drag than one might think. Keep in mind, BOTH aircraft are prop limited. Not drag limited as a Bf109. You had to give them constant speed propellers as well for the airframe to make the difference.


Both the Hanriot and the D.VIII for practical purposes have the same engine and propeller. By just changing the propeller, you make the same Cessna go 120 knots instead of 90! If the D.VIII would indeed over rev at desired cruise altitude and rated power, it would have a wrongly chosen propeller - or - being underpropped on purpose for better climb performance. But then it is not about the airframe being too sleek, but about the increased climb at the expense of airspeed.

 

Remember: For best climb, you not only need best climb speed, but you still need to be able to crank your propeller at a speed where it is most efficient! Flying at half the speed will make that much harder.

 

This applies to all WW1 fighter planes that by weight, dimensions and power are somewhat identical to todays GA aircraft. What differs them is that in some cases, they have very low revving engines, something you compensate with the prop pitch for. You cannot put a Camel propeller on a SPAD.

 

Fixed pitch props are like a car with just one gearing. You see the revs, you know how fast it goes. (In GA aircraft manuals, you have tables for that.) A propeller has a very narrow range of rpm to be efficient for a given flight speed. For todays GA aircraft propellers, you have roughly about between 2‘200 rpm to 2‘500 rpm. Above and below that, efficiency drops considerably. Forget about wires. As a consequence, you get less from further upping revs than what you would expect. This sets a more coarse speed limit than some wires. Conversely, while people are shouting „wires“ when it comes to drag, putting up another gun into the airstream seems to have worried nobody.

 

You really, really cannot compare the „experience“ one has with constant speed propellers to fixed pitch. And this is why an 80 hp constant speed prop motor glider can tow as heavy of a glider as a 160 hp fixed pitch Remo tow plane.

 

What makes the old aircraft special is their handling. The flight performance is as predictable as with any other aircraft. A Bücker 131 (with wires) flies almost exactly as fast as a plane without wires featuring the identical propeller/engine combination.

 

In order to make the airframe have a difference, you need to go well in excess of max. flight speed, namely in dives. But there, a lot of other inconveniences  emerge as well.

 

About the only things the D.VIII can have on the Hanriot is *maybe* better control at slow speed maneuvering due to the thick wing profile, along with 100 kg less weight.

 

4 hours ago, SeaW0lf said:

 

The Hanriot does not turn as well, and then I think it is hard to believe.

In RoF, certainly.

Edited by ZachariasX

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@ZachariasX Interesting about wires drag , I would like to see ZLD charts for Fokker D7 and Pfaltz DXII . We have in game  same engine in Albatros DVa and D7 but they do have much difference in speed.

Unfortunately we don't know really nothing about airscrews used in the game, more coarse or fine ...

Edited by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

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14 minutes ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

@ZachariasX Interesting about wires drag , I would like to see ZLD charts for Fokker D7 and Pfaltz DXII . We have in game  same engine in Albatros DVa and D7 but they do have much difference in speed.

 

I think this book:

Loftin, Laurence K., Jr.: Subsonic Aircraft: Evolution and the Matching of Size to Performance

would be the thing to look for. I haven‘t found it online, but maybe it is available.

 

He features the table of these values online here, and in his book „Quest for Performance: The Evolution of Modern Aircraft“.

 

Even Wiki states almost identical speeds for BMW (180 hp) powered Fokker D.VII and the Mercedes DIIIau (185 hp) powered aircraft respectively. It is of note that the aircraft are of almost equal weight. Hence if we knew the propeller and rpm of both configurations, the difference in theoretical flight speed would be your actual drag penalty. You could tell directly from that. But AFAIK the BMW and the Mercedes engine differ 100 rpm at mentioned rated power, hence propellers may be different as well. But generally, the closer the aircraft gets to its theoretical speed, the less drag it has.

 

What would be interesting are the flight speeds at partial power. It would give an indication of how well the aircraft does with increasing altitude, namely how much of a penalty it gets. In principle, wing area is identical as well, hence I‘d really expect the engine making the difference. It would depend on the wing profile how much induced drag rises at progressively lower speeds.

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On 1/31/2020 at 8:55 AM, CB77Don246 said:

Ok I am no expert at how  flight sims work but surely it can't be that much of a problem to take a aircraft from ROF and transfer it to FC for the development team and then they charge us for it, the two sims are so much alike.

Maybe someone can shoot me down and say it is a big job I don't know, one thing I do know and I have all ROF content and FC and ok FC is the better sim BUT ROF still has a lot to offer just look at the channel map probably in my opinion the best offering of Dover in any sim today including X-plane and P3D, WOFF, ect.

 

New flight model using different math

Teaching AI to fly the new flight model

New damage model using different criteria

New 3d models

New skins

 

That is just the planes - every plane.  Of course the research already put into these planes helps, so it's not quite like starting from scratch.  However, the amount of work is not trivial.  

 

Edited by PatrickAWlson

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On 1/31/2020 at 1:54 AM, Zooropa_Fly said:

SOMETHING ENTENTE THAT TURNS1

Bristol M.1C, Monoplane.
The best turner of all ww1 planes according to records from pilots who flew it.
A quick excerpt from wiki: Perhaps the most successful M.1C pilot amongst those that served on the Macedonian front was Captain Frederick Dudley Travers DFC of No. 150 Squadron RAF, who became the only ace on this type. Travers switched from the Royal Aircraft Factory SE.5a, in which he had scored three of his four kills, and scored the last five of his victories between 2 and 16 September 1918, possibly all in the same M.1C, serial number C4976. One of his victims was a Fokker D.VII, widely regarded as the best German fighter of its day.

As for my own opinion: Add one plane at a time, RoF style.
Dont go big package volume depending on huge sales to finance the next.

Edited by Red_Von_Hammer
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10 hours ago, Red_Von_Hammer said:

Bristol M.1C, Monoplane.
The best turner of all ww1 planes according to records from pilots who flew it.
A quick excerpt from wiki: Perhaps the most successful M.1C pilot amongst those that served on the Macedonian front was Captain Frederick Dudley Travers DFC of No. 150 Squadron RAF, who became the only ace on this type. Travers switched from the Royal Aircraft Factory SE.5a, in which he had scored three of his four kills, and scored the last five of his victories between 2 and 16 September 1918, possibly all in the same M.1C, serial number C4976. One of his victims was a Fokker D.VII, widely regarded as the best German fighter of its day.

As for my own opinion: Add one plane at a time, RoF style.
Dont go big package volume depending on huge sales to finance the next.

Cecil Lewis flew that thing too and came to really love it.  

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Yes I've heard the M.1C was a great plane but the Air Ministry (or whoever it was at the time) didn't have a lot of faith in monoplanes... 

 

Anyway put me down for Bloody April with at least four 2-seaters.

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18 hours ago, Adam said:

Cecil Lewis flew that thing too and came to really love it.  

It was Morane-Saulnier L parasol I think.

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4 hours ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

It was Morane-Saulnier L parasol I think.

Copy that partner

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On 1/31/2020 at 11:33 AM, JG1_Butzzell said:

S!

 

my turn.

 

FC Vol 2 "The battle of Verdun"  ( new map )

 

DH2, N-11, N-17, Pup, Tripe, SPAD 7, RE8,    Fok E3, Halb D2, Alb D2, Alb D3, DFW and Roland Cl.2.

 

 

 

This gives enough basic planes to cover the time line of the war.

 

I'm with Butz on this one! I really want to see the N11 and N17 in the FC engine.

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I would just like to see any thing for FC I have a nasty feeling FC VOL1 will end like ROF and at 76 I will not be around for ever to see my dreams fulfilled WW1 is the only thing for me.

I do hope I am wrong, so ANY WW1 stuff is ok by me.

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On 2/18/2020 at 10:01 PM, CB77Don246 said:

I would just like to see any thing for FC I have a nasty feeling FC VOL1 will end like ROF and at 76 I will not be around for ever to see my dreams fulfilled WW1 is the only thing for me.

I do hope I am wrong, so ANY WW1 stuff is ok by me.


Not to contribute to the misery, but I recently read about a New Wings pilot that departed us in 2018 over at their forums, and come to think of it I flew in one or two scraps with that man.
Taken from us all too soon :(
Point being, people aren't getting younger, and I see pilots dropping out due to health all the time.
Joined in with a couple of other guys for chipping in on FC Vol.1 for the old RB3D clique here and there as we get in contact with them.
Depending whether they're active or not, hoping we can bolster numbers a bit more and just get to relive those good times a bit more.
But it's a slow process, FC wasn't marketed very well, most of them have been dying to fly but didn't know of anything else out there.
It also depends on whether more content is added, certainly more two seaters wouldn't go amiss, along with some more early/mid-war stuff (what most of the old guard likes best).
If they play it right, and I sincerely hope they do, FC could be the final hurrah with the established guard.

Edited by Red_Von_Hammer
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