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Trains Chase along the Same Track - I GIVE UP


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Set up 2 trains on the same track. each with its own Mission begin, the second train with a 30s delay, on one first WP of it's own.

Then they had the same WPs down the track, same speed set at 60km.

 

For some time all went OK, nicely pokin' along after each other. But then all of a sudden the first train looses a wagon, and the second gets stuck against it ....

did not see if there was a collision BTW.

 

Any explanation? F.i. should i  use OnSpottingStarted target linking a waypoint maybe??

Or some other kind of linking to prevent accidents and keep the second train at a distance?

 

Below train 2 is the first, train 3 the second one.

 

Train Chase 01.jpg

 

Edited by jollyjack
guess ...
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All the lines are on top of each other so difficult to say. If you use the same waypoint for two trains then once the first train passse the waypoint it will activate the next one. I suppose the common waypoints have object links to both trains. The second train coming behind should then jump to the next waypoint as the first is rendered inactive. It should work as trains cannot get out of the railway. You can launch train convoys this way. Never tried this before. OnSpotting Started event is not clear for me. Still work to do.

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First of all your trains are travelling at 60/kph which apparently is too fast for the track you are using as you had a derailment. So naturally the second train will ram into the first one.

Secondly if these trains are attacked by aircraft then cars or the engine will invariably be destroyed and detach causing another back up.

Play around with proper timers and formation stops should these things happen. As far as both trains or any group, which the train engines and their carriages are, having the same waypoint.

Good luck with that and you mission design,

Tip

 

 

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Tip, Icky, thanks, will try. But the first train looses it's last wagon already after the departure after colliding, so i think they'll need separate waypoints or target linking.

Latter does not seem to work with train 2 target linked to train 1 with a road column formation command (safe) ..

Train 2 then also bumps into 1 shortly after departure, 1 loosens the last wagon. 2 stops, and the first train moves on with less wagons. 

-----------------

 

Tip, there was a 1935 German loc capable of 160 km/h ... for the next update wishlist?

 

Train convoys should be nice ...

 

DB Class 05 1935.jpg

 

BTW Remember that old B&W movie with Burt Lancaster as French Resistance engineer sabotaging the Nazi train with stolen goedies from the Louvre museum? Nice for a Historical Mission, alas the route from Paris up east is not in Rheinland .. we'll need a tobacco pipe as weapon of mass destruction too.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Train_(1964_film)

 

 

 

Edited by jollyjack
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Trains chase: The last thing i tried was format command road columns (there's only vehicle), proximity 700 m and the second train target linked to the first ... slave train keeps bumping against the ' leader" 2 mimutes or so after they both start moving. Thus, I GIVE UP. ....

 

Train Chase 03.jpg

Edited by jollyjack
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Hi there

 

I was (or still am) working on something similar, but with much more functions.

Having trains running by random, using the same track system.
Avoiding collisions
Using the present switches (track system)
Using stations
Using ending points (DeadEnds)

And all that for 20 trains (each of them has 5 subtrains, so 100 spawning positions would be possible)

 

I've got it working on smaller parts of the 'Rheinland' map, but....

 

It requires a massive use of waypoints (9 per train and switch/station/whatelse)
It requires a massive use of timers

 

I've allready disabled all waypoints on mission start (means all waypoints for all trains)
and have them enabled in case they are needed only, afterwards deactivate again.
But that still creates a massive load for the server.

In fact for me it's faster to KILL il2 (killing the task) and restarting it than to wait after exiting the server until il2 will respond again.
Same for the server itself (hosting both on the same computer with a dedicated dServer account)

 

Maybe some of you can tell me WHAT uses dserver recources and what doesn't...

Options would be Deactivating all unused timers, too..

 

Any ideas?

 

Deci

 

PS:

Used are:

20 Trains active and spawned

84 track points (stations, dead-ends, switches)

14400 (no type mismatch!) waypoints

and uncounted timers, activators, deactivators....

 

NO use of any check zone or complex triggers for that part.

I use 5 AI bombers (He111) constantly flying circles on that map to simulate some AI planes and block the recources for them,

but using less trackpoints makes the mission run smoother.

And every added trackpoint makes it run worse


 

 



 

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And you did not give up?  Hats off ! At least you got me curious. 14400 waypoints?

Q: what's a track point, a DeadEnd? An Entity active Station block? Switch you mean a railway switch? Did not know they existed?

 

This IL2 train business programming is far more fun than than in a graphically nice Train Simulator like Train Sim World or TS2020.  

Hopefully they will plan some more added stuff for IL2 on that, like switches (?) for the routes, more type locs etc. especially WW1 trains.

A train transport with tanks would be nice to chase down  ...

And tunnels to hide from the Spits like in the movie clip posted above ...

 

PS i only tried SP missions so far. Not that much of a dogfight fan.

Edited by jollyjack
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Switches are the railway switches (and they have no basic logic, it's just a connection between 3 incoming rairlay tracks)
DeadEnds are used to mark the end of a railway track (used for despawning and spawning trains)

 

And for every switch (3 tracks connected) i need 10 waypoints for each train (and I use 20 trains)

 

Every train blocks the track it is using for every other train (and they don't know about the other ones9
So it's a very complex logic, but it's working (until I use too many of these logical groups)

 

Actually I have covered about 10% of the Rheinland map and reached the servers limit...

 

 

Deci

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OK thanks. Just disconnected the first and the second train, to run with their own waypoints on the same track ...

Set the first to 55 km, and the second to 45, starting 1 minute later ..... No 2 still over takes no 1, and again bumps into it ... Must be the snow slowing no 1 down.

 

I wonder if using activation and proximity MCUs can make it work ....

Edited by jollyjack
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  • 2 weeks later...

If you want to be sure they will not bump in then first check what is the effective maximum speed you get for each train along the planned track. The speed number you set is just approximate, and real train speed in the simulation changes a lot according to terrain and game load. Second do multiple waypoints for each train, and vary the speeds at waypoints to slow down the second train if necessary and avoid bumping in the first one. It is all a matter of fine tuning and coordination.

 

I manage criss crossing trains without any problem by using one train to act on another train. Do not forget that you can use a waypoint to trigger something else than just the next waypoint.

 

 

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You can even make the first train to act as Master and the second train as Slave. The waypoints of the slave train must not be connected, only object connected to the second train loco..

Here is how to proceed. The waypoints of the first train when they are triggered they will trigger waypoints of the second train. In this way the second train will only move when the first train will have passed its waypoint. In case the second train arrives at its waypoint and the next is still not triggered by the master train then the second train stops and waits. Playing with all these things, very complex train movements can be controlled. Its unfortunate that on the Rheinland map we do not have more complex railways, railway stations and depots.

The only limitation in all this is unfortunately when trains get partly destroyed and leave behind  rogue railcars on the railway that we cannot have access to. Those railcars become the grain of sand that will block the otherwise nicely tuned train control mechanism.

 

One additional comment: if you have two trains that will do one behind the other exactly the same journey, then the simplest way is to have the locomotive of the second train target linked to the locomotive of the first master train. In that way the second train will follow the first. Just use the normal waypoints of the first train, the second needs no waypoints. Careful to allow enough distance between the locomotives to ensure that there is space between for the trains. You can have any distance between the locomotives. they can be a mile apart. The second will do exactly as the first does. But here your second train cannot be controlled it is a complete slave. Yo have to pay attention to the following. If the two trains are very near to each other I mean meters between the last cariiage of the master and the loco of the slave, then if the first train is heavy and the second light, the second loco may bump into the carriages. To avoid this and if you want the two trains to follow each other in a dense formation then have the first train lighter, it will accelerate faster. After when the two trains are at same speed then no problem the second keeps a certain distance and will not bump. But when you will brake the heavier train will brake longer and decelerate slower. This time the second train may bump in the first.

So if you have enough distance no problem, if you want a tight convoy then have the same number of carriages in each train.

 

Edited by IckyATLAS
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I take it that when a leader train is destroyed the master-slave system thus collapses. Good tip on weight/mass of a train and it's behavior, never noticed that.

One Q regarding heavy trains: i tried to add a second loc as banker to a heavy train. Doesn't appear, only it's tender. Not possible??

 

Indeed a pity that the train tracks for Rhineland are are too simple and scarce; the railways actually were the backbone of the nazi war machine as for conquering the continent.  

 

 

 

Edited by jollyjack
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7 hours ago, jollyjack said:

I take it that when a leader train is destroyed the master-slave system thus collapses. Good tip on weight/mass of a train and it's behavior, never noticed that.

One Q regarding heavy trains: i tried to add a second loc as banker to a heavy train. Doesn't appear, only it's tender. Not possible??

 

Indeed a pity that the train tracks for Rhineland are are too simple and scarce; the railways actually were the backbone of the nazi war machine as for conquering the continent.  

 

 

 

Second loc tried already but not possible. Like having a carriage in front of the loc does not work too. And I agree that the rhineland rail system is far too scarce.

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Well. at least we've got some trains. Now we need some new stuff like an armored loc, staff cars with bobos, hospital wagons ....

And for Arras: were are they, those old fashioned locs like the bonderocket lol ....

 

Edited by jollyjack
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  • 3 months later...

Ok, I've got it working (almost)

 

Chasing is still not implemented

But a completely random spawning/moving system (track based) IS possible.

 

Unfortunately I ran into a bug (or better possible and reported bug)

 

Deci

 

BTW:

 

A 'chasing' should be possible with my system

but the resources used are massive...

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I am done with trains for now. -.- They simply don't work as intended atm. Even a single slow train looses its waggons when there is a slope or when there are objects or trees near the tracks. Some stations are bugged too, so the trains spawn even without waggons, or the waggons are on another random track. The tunnels also don't work, the two sides are just dead ends ... 

I hope this get fixed someday because they look very cool and are a lot of fun to shoot. (Especially while moving 😁). 

Edited by Nihilion
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20 minutes ago, Nihilion said:

...

I hope this get fixed someday because they look very cool and are a lot of fun to shoot. (Especially while moving 😁). 

Sadly that topic is a pain over years now. Railroad transport has been the backbone of WW2-logistics in Europe. Just a few corrections and add-ons and it would be so much more easy to simulate logistics, the flow of supply. It would bring campaigns to life, offering campaign-mechanisms, meaningful targets for bombers, escorts and interceptors.

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  • 1 month later...

Ok, I did not giveup and continued investigating

 

And state of NOW is, I declare it as a BUG..

 

I've created the most complex logic I ever did

and it was (or better IS) working

 

Having

- 10 trains run independently

- never more than 1 train on the same track

- spawning/despawning included

- stations (spawning / drivethroug directly without stop / waiting / despawning) working

- switches / signals (connection of railroad tracks) working

- checkpoints (passing by / despawning and respawning) implemented cannot be continued due to bug

 

But I've noticed strange behaviours of the trains a long time ago.

- Derailing carriages after passing a bridge (reported as bug)

- Trains turning 180 degrees after the next waypoint has been triggered

  (my first thought was I've made a mistake within my mission logic. Now I know I didn't)

 

Attached you'll find a very small part of the most complex logic I've ever created....

I've simply delete all tracks/station/spawnpoints not used to show what happens (knowing that the logic will still work!)

 

I've debugged everything.

Tracks are set free/busy by the trains (working)

Following waypoints are triggered by the trains at switches, stations and checkpoints (working)

 

Here is what happens

Trains spawn at 'Bielefeld' and 'Guetersloh', driving towards the next waypoint

For trains from 'Bielefeld' it is allways the 'Checkpoint' between 'Bielefeld' and 'Guetersloh'

For trains from 'Guetersloh' it is (after passing a 'switch') either the 'Checkpoint', or the 'Station' at 'Versmold'.

In most cases the track 'Versmold - Guetersloh' is allready used, so the train will use the way to the 'Checkpoint'


Trains entering the 'Checkpoint' from 'Bielefeld' continue as intended.

Next waypoint is triggered and trains continue as wanted.

 

Trains entering 'Checkpoint' from the 'Guetersloh' after passing the 'Switch' behave strange.

The first waypoint IS reached

The next waypoint IS triggered (and NO other waypoint)

The train turns around instantly 180 degrees

The train moves for a while (planned destination unknown) and then stopps.

The desired waypoint is NEVER reached

 

I've noticed this strange behaviour before within a different logic (Switch logic) at a different position.

And I can confirm that every other 'Switch' inside the complete mission uses the same things and IS working...

 

To see what happens start the mission on a dServer

activate debugging subtitles by using the console (serverinput -> Checkpoint ON)

grab a plane at 'Observer'

switch to 'Outside view'

and move directly upwards.

You'll see 5 smokes. Reg, green, yellow, blue and black (hard to see)

And you'll get subtitles (same colours) whenever a waypoint is triggered...

 

Deci

 

PS:

Trains loosing carriages after passing a bridge should be no problem within this mission (no bridges on track)

but is still a present bug

Buildings on track should also be no problem (as the track is not used)

but the building on track at 'Lippstadt' is still present in the provided templates

 

 

 

__Test.zip

Edited by JG4_Deciman
added .mission file to the zip
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@-DED-Rapidus

I've tried it on Rheinland only, but the complete train logic uses much more tracks.

And as the groups containing the logic are identical and the problem has been noticed (up to now)

at 2 waypoints only it is very strange.

Waypoints are checked again and again. They an on track and on ground...

 

Deci

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Something happened to trains a couple of updates ago.

The carriages jiggle back and forth frantically most of the time, often initiated by any small 'bump' in the track.

I think it's the cause of some de-railments.

It's one of them immersion killer thingy's - puts me off going near trains.

 

S!

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17 hours ago, JG4_Deciman said:

Ok, I did not giveup and continued investigating

 

And state of NOW is, I declare it as a BUG..

 

I've created the most complex logic I ever did

and it was (or better IS) working

 

Having

- 10 trains run independently

- never more than 1 train on the same track

- spawning/despawning included

- stations (spawning / drivethroug directly without stop / waiting / despawning) working

- switches / signals (connection of railroad tracks) working

- checkpoints (passing by / despawning and respawning) implemented cannot be continued due to bug

 

But I've noticed strange behaviours of the trains a long time ago.

- Derailing carriages after passing a bridge (reported as bug)

- Trains turning 180 degrees after the next waypoint has been triggered

  (my first thought was I've made a mistake within my mission logic. Now I know I didn't)

 

Attached you'll find a very small part of the most complex logic I've ever created....

I've simply delete all tracks/station/spawnpoints not used to show what happens (knowing that the logic will still work!)

 

I've debugged everything.

Tracks are set free/busy by the trains (working)

Following waypoints are triggered by the trains at switches, stations and checkpoints (working)

 

Here is what happens

Trains spawn at 'Bielefeld' and 'Guetersloh', driving towards the next waypoint

For trains from 'Bielefeld' it is allways the 'Checkpoint' between 'Bielefeld' and 'Guetersloh'

For trains from 'Guetersloh' it is (after passing a 'switch') either the 'Checkpoint', or the 'Station' at 'Versmold'.

In most cases the track 'Versmold - Guetersloh' is allready used, so the train will use the way to the 'Checkpoint'


Trains entering the 'Checkpoint' from 'Bielefeld' continue as intended.

Next waypoint is triggered and trains continue as wanted.

 

Trains entering 'Checkpoint' from the 'Guetersloh' after passing the 'Switch' behave strange.

The first waypoint IS reached

The next waypoint IS triggered (and NO other waypoint)

The train turns around instantly 180 degrees

The train moves for a while (planned destination unknown) and then stopps.

The desired waypoint is NEVER reached

 

I've noticed this strange behaviour before within a different logic (Switch logic) at a different position.

And I can confirm that every other 'Switch' inside the complete mission uses the same things and IS working...

 

To see what happens start the mission on a dServer

activate debugging subtitles by using the console (serverinput -> Checkpoint ON)

grab a plane at 'Observer'

switch to 'Outside view'

and move directly upwards.

You'll see 5 smokes. Reg, green, yellow, blue and black (hard to see)

And you'll get subtitles (same colours) whenever a waypoint is triggered...

 

Deci

 

PS:

Trains loosing carriages after passing a bridge should be no problem within this mission (no bridges on track)

but is still a present bug

Buildings on track should also be no problem (as the track is not used)

but the building on track at 'Lippstadt' is still present in the provided templates

 

 

__Test.zip 474.96 kB · 1 download


Hi Deciman. Thanks for your researching train bugs. Hopefully the devs will be doing something, as i enjoy messing with trains in the ME.

I noticed the train reversing issue before, among some other issues i never resolved.

 

BTW, i played in a band in this place in Bielefeld some 15 years ago, now a theater, music, pub and arts center. Still breathing trains a little ..

 

 

Lockshuppen_Bielefeld 1.jpg

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I had also a problem with trains loosing carriages when going on a bridge in the Krasnodar region, on the Kuban map.

I checked this and found the reason (in my case).

The bridge tracks where not well aligned with the ground track, this was due to the bridge misalignment.

I just deleted all the bridges of the map and reimported the bridge template file, and all was fine again.

 

A good method when developing a complex mission is to have all your groups under the hat of one main group that contains all the mission groups.

Because when working with subgroups it may happen that you move slightly a group of objects. It may become difficult and even impossible to reposition them, if this group contains objects spread on a large region. This is why it is important to save that major group regularly as you save the mission itself. 

You can then delete your mission group and import it again and all will be fine.

In some cases I had to recreate the mission from scratch. That is easy, just set again the map and the various conditions you had defined (description , date, time, weather, sea etc.) and then import all the templates and your mission group and there you are, in five minutes a completely news perfectly map positioned mission. I go by that you have all your mission descriptions saved in text files, and so it is a quick copy and paste.

 

On the Kuban map there are two wooden bridges (for vehicles) in a swampy region south east of the map north of Tuapse, that have a wrong elevation and are a little above ground, maybe  0.5 meter or so, but on one side only. Some vehicles coming towards the bridge from the defective side will go through the wooden planks of the bridge into the water under the bridge. It will depend on the vehicle type. I tried many ways by moving the bridge turning it etc but impossible to correct this defect. The pitch rotation and elevation of the bridge are slightly skewed and we do not have access to those coordinates. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by IckyATLAS
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So I've looked up this mission, an impressive example of the mission building and demonstration of gameplay mechanics, no doubt. But this is not a working testing case it is a mess of various MCU's for me to find bugs in some of them. And each of these MCU's is a pile of raw code for our programmers to read and debug.

 

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11 minutes ago, Regingrave said:

So I've looked up this mission, an impressive example of the mission building and demonstration of gameplay mechanics, no doubt. But this is not a working testing case it is a mess of various MCU's for me to find bugs in some of them. And each of these MCU's is a pile of raw code for our programmers to read and debug.

 

 

I’m getting reports of derailed train cars in a current project. I haven’t had time to chase it down yet, but I’ll see if I can isolate the problem and send over a simple demo mission soon.

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1 hour ago, Regingrave said:

So I've looked up this mission, an impressive example of the mission building and demonstration of gameplay mechanics, no doubt. But this is not a working testing case it is a mess of various MCU's for me to find bugs in some of them. And each of these MCU's is a pile of raw code for our programmers to read and debug.

 

Trying to bring some 'light' into the mess....

 

There are 10 Trains (and each has 5 'Subtrains', used for different spawning positions only)

There are different 'Action Points' (station, switch, checkoint and deadends (which are not included in the example mission))

There are 'Tracks' (connection between 2 'Action Points')

 

Each 'Action Point' has a 'Master logic' (feeded by and sending to the trains) and an identical logic for each train

So whenever a train reaches a waypoint the internal logic is performed, and at the end the final action is handed over to the master logic

Also the master logic feeds all internal logics (simply grouped into Train1-5 and Train 6-10 to remove entire logic for half of the trains by deleting groups)

 

On mission start all internal actions and all waypoints (for all trains) are disabled (no check if active)

'SETTING Offline' does the same but only for the specific train

 

Everything else is triggered by the trains.

A train activating a waypoint sets the connected 'SETTING' and performes intrnal actions

So is a Train#01 enters the Checkpoint, the setting for this train is modified.

After handing the result over to the master logic all train logics are triggered, but only the modified one reacts.

 

So for debugging you can ignore any train except Train#01 (because the rest is completly the same)

 

And as a fun fact...

I've tried to duplicate the 'Checkpoint' logic for the second track (from 'Versmold').

Same result (train from the switch flipping arround)

Next I've tried to turn the logic by 180 degrees (so waypoints are completely exchanged)

Also same result (train from the switch flipping arround)

In both cases a train from 'Versmold' proceeds to next waypoint!

So bug inside my 'Checkpoint' can be sorted out.

 

What I can assume is:

Triggering an action by waypoint, triggering a new waypoint AND disabling the triggered (for action) waypoint at the same time can cause problems

because that is what happens, but the problem does not occur allways.

 

 

Deci

 

Edited by JG4_Deciman
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21 hours ago, Regingrave said:

So I've looked up this mission, an impressive example of the mission building and demonstration of gameplay mechanics, no doubt. But this is not a working testing case it is a mess of various MCU's for me to find bugs in some of them. And each of these MCU's is a pile of raw code for our programmers to read and debug.

 

@Regingrave

@-DED-Rapidus

 

Here is a special version for you to debug...

 

Removed all subgroups and waypoints except the ones for Train#01

Modified my spawning logic so that the only present train gets a 100% possibility.

Set the track from 'Guetersloh' to 'Versmold' offline.

So a train spawning at 'Guetersloh' must now drive towards 'Bielefeld'

and enter the 'Checkpoint'

 

The entire 'Masterlogic' is still present and in use

but as everything is looped from the trains via masterlogic to the trains that makes no difference in functions.

 

The train still drives crazy.

 

And as a final assistance here is what happens

 

On mission startup ALL settings are set to 'Offline' (all waypoints, triggers etc disabled for all trains)

 

Train spawner activated the only present train

(maybe a different subtrain will spawn, but after a while a train will spawn at 'Guetersloh')

 

Spawn Train#01_2 (461)
- SET Spawntrack Busy (blocks station for further entering/spawning)
- Move Train#01_2 (1 minute delay)

Next Actions are located in 'TrackSystem' -> '__-2_STATION 1034-6-5' ->
-- TR#01_EXIT_st (473)
-- Orientation 1 ON (474)

Setting for Train#01 is prepared
Orientation for Train#01 is prepared
Train reports 'Train at station' (250ms delay) to Masterlogic
Masterlogic handles the rest and orders train to move
Settings for Train are prepared (Outbound Track...)
Waypoints are triggered (only active trigger is PreSignal...)

Train reaches waypoint.
Station is set 'Free' for next entry/spawn
Train reports 'Moving' to masterlogic (aborting timeout timers)
TR#01_EXIT_... is triggered

- Settings adjusted to 'Offline' for that train (ALL Waypoints are deactivated, ALL waypoint triggers are deactvated)
So I can be 100% safe, there should be no waypoint or waypoint active inside the station and no waypoint should be triggered for that train

Train is handed over to the 'Switch' and proceeds on track.
Same here...
After final waypoint ALL is deactivated and the train is handed over to the 'Checkpoint'
Here the train reaches the first waypoint, the next waypoint (and only that one) is triggered and the train turns arround driving somewhere, but not to the desired waypoint...

 

Deci

 

__Test_small.zip

Edited by JG4_Deciman
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12.08.2020 в 18:45, Gambit21 сказал:

 

I’m getting reports of derailed train cars in a current project. I haven’t had time to chase it down yet, but I’ll see if I can isolate the problem and send over a simple demo mission soon.

Don't bother, we're already fixing this problem now. :)

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4 часа назад, JG4_Deciman сказал:

It is still quite messy down there. :(

The problem here is Bodenplatte map alone will take around an hour to load in debug mode because in this mode game runs without any optimization, not to mention this complex logic you have there. There should be a bare minimum of objects on map: no blocks or bridges, smallest map possible (not in this case since there are no railway junctions on Lapino, but in all other cases it's better to use Lapino) and no entities or MCU's other than ones that cause the bug.

image.png

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