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eastriverman

What's missing in the BoM, BoS, and BoK careers

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HiHo!

 

Having fought my way through these battles as a german fighter pilot, I got aware of a strange fact:

 

In none of these battles a ever saw one of these ground objects:

 

# Katyusha rocket launchers

# KV-1s heavy tanks

# Trains

# Ships

 

OK, there are no ships in BoM, but I searched the whole Volga in BoS and all the Sea in BoK and THERE ARE NO SHIPS.

 

All of that is present in Quick missions but not in the careers and I really cannot understand why it has to be.

 

To be honest: After becoming a skillfull pilot all the careers become a bit boring over time and I hoped I could beef them up by spending the rest of my ammo on a supply train on my way back from the main mission or put my bomb not onto a puny artillery piece but onto an enemy ship instead or flatten out some nasty Katyushas with gunfire an so on.

 

The load screens shown when a new career mission is set up are a bit misleading, too. On one screen you can see a pair of Bf-109Fs doing a bomb run on a russian gunboat on the Volga at Stalingrad.

 

But sadly, in fighter units you only have frequent fighter bomber missions agains ground targets, never against ships which are nonexistent anyway .

 

So, question to all players who are/where active in the careers: Do you have the same experience?

 

And, yes in the options menu I've activated all types of ground targets 😀

 

best regards

eastriverman

 

 

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14 minutes ago, eastriverman said:

All of that is present in Quick missions but not in the careers and I really cannot understand why it has to be.

 

I am pretty sure limited human ressources and development priorities are the reason behind this.

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As someone who mainly flies ground attack... this is the major 'thinness' of the sim: I tried flying campaigns and found the targets to be pretty generic.

 

I would like to see multiple different layouts of aircraft at airfields. I would like to see rail marshaling yards and supply depots. I would like to see barges. I would like to see enemy camps with tents and vehicles. I want varied complex targets with a sense of reality to them. As it is I may as well fly QMB and attack the same train repeatedly - the experience is as good as the campaign.

 

It would be nice if the devs could partner with some third parties (e.g. mission builders) to increase the number and diversity of target templates (in both the campaign and in the QMB).

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I have seen KV-1s in the armored columns, but I agree on the others. Really wish naval attack missions would be included in career. Supporting/attacking river boats is the one thing I miss from the old "career mode" that existed before this improved one. 

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BoMS is my vote for the next module. Battle of More Stuff.....nothing new, just more of what we have on the screen at one time.

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I recall reading that the mission logic with the ships is too convoluted to use in the career.   Hopefully the new AI guy gets a look at those too before long.  

 

One omission I cannot understand is the Ju-52.  They should be as common as dirt behind the lines, but in the hundreds of hours I’ve spent flying and searching for them in all three Russian careers I’ve never  even seen a single one.  

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30 minutes ago, Feathered_IV said:

I recall reading that the mission logic with the ships is too convoluted to use in the career.

I could be wrong, but didn't we have anti ship missions in the old campaign system, before the career mode?

One reason that we don't have them now, might be, because it would be pretty one sided. Or did the Wehrmacht transport goods on the Don or Volga? And what about the Black Sea with the russian Black Sea Fleet, were there german ship transports?

 

35 minutes ago, Feathered_IV said:

One omission I cannot understand is the Ju-52.  They should be as common as dirt behind the lines, but in the hundreds of hours I’ve spent flying and searching for them in all three Russian careers I’ve never  even seen a single one.

This surely is because of the mission design. The career misions are not like PWCG missions, with flights somewhere on the map, which you could encounter. In the career missions you have the flights, the mission designer wants you to encounter and that's it. If you fly PWCG, you can encounter Ju 52s. At least I see them constantly in german  Kuban fighter missions, so they are there.

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4 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

I could be wrong, but didn't we have anti ship missions in the old campaign system, before the career mode?

 

Yes

 

4 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

One reason that we don't have them now, might be, because it would be pretty one sided.

 

And what about the Black Sea with the russian Black Sea Fleet, were there german ship transports?

 

One-sided? No, not hardly. There was a lot of German shipping present on the Black Sea and, with the coming Normandy map, there was plenty of German naval traffic (relatively speaking) in that area as well.

Edited by LukeFF

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I don’t have the Bodenplatte chapter, but does the allied offensive against rail traffic feature there?   

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1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

One-sided? No, not hardly. There was a lot of German shipping present on the Black Sea and, with the coming Normandy map, there was plenty of German naval traffic (relatively speaking) in that area as well.

Edited 1 hour ago by LukeFF

So let's hope we will get some anti shipping missions in the future. I would like to do some dive bombing attacks in my Ju 88 career, ... well, if I'll be able to make it to the Kuban.

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16 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

I recall reading that the mission logic with the ships is too convoluted to use in the career.   Hopefully the new AI guy gets a look at those too before long.  

 

One omission I cannot understand is the Ju-52.  They should be as common as dirt behind the lines, but in the hundreds of hours I’ve spent flying and searching for them in all three Russian careers I’ve never  even seen a single one.  

 

It's the same as any other vehicle.  In PWCG I treat ships more or less the same way.  They spawn on proximity and then they have a waypoint somewhere far away, so they are moving when you attack.  I'm not trying to do anything sophisticated like naval battles but if you just want a moving target on the water it's not a big deal.

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Gents, all these issues with target types and density, lack of shipping, etc...  all are the severe limitations of this (old) game engine coming home to roost.  You just cannot have large numbers of AIs running around, even in single player.

 

We all want these things, and I believe the devs would like us to have them, but there are some very hard limits set by the game engine that simply cannot be ignored.  The pie is only so big, no matter how thin you make the slices, it still adds up to the same, small, pie.

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15 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

I don’t have the Bodenplatte chapter, but does the allied offensive against rail traffic feature there?   

Not in my experience in the career mode. Marshaling/Classification yards are non existent on the Bodenplatte map so rail attacks aren't too common in-game.

Railyards are something that are sorely needed in the Bodenplatte map, the one thing I was looking forward to is attacking rail yards like in guncam footage, but it's not possible with the way the map is now.

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1 hour ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

 the severe limitations of this (old) game engine coming home to roost.  You just cannot have large numbers of AIs running around, even in single player.

 

This is particularly puzzling to me as RoF (which as far as I know was built on the same engine) clearly had in the mission generator more AI getting spawned and running their own missions, often having an impact on the mission generated for the player unit (random fighter sweep/ recon flight) or responding to it (fighter spawning on the airfields to intercept player flight). At the same time on both sides there were always truck convoys/trains/tanks assaults going on the ground...

 

More than the game engine itself (which surely also had some initial problems compared in the transition from RoF, remember the 10km fog?) I still think that the AI-demanded resources are what are bogging down the missions so easily...

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Quote

I still think that the AI-demanded resources are what are bogging down the missions so easily...

 

Going multicore is essentiell IMHO. No trivial task I know. But there is hope....

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I don't actually mind the number of AI flights in your average career mission. The skies over Moscow can be plenty busy, and I have memories of missions where my flight was bounced on the way to some target or ended up in a twisting dogfight against bomber escorts. Maybe I'm just not as competent as the rest to mop them up quickly, because those are usually knock-down, drag-out fights.

 

I do echo the desires of others for more varied ground targets. I've gone up against rail hubs on Moscow when flying in ShAPs, but not in IAPs or IAP PVOs. In general most of the targets I end up shooting at are trucks and the occasional tank or flak half-track, though fixed AAA positions come up every now and again based off of the target area. I would like to see other targets show up, such as artillery pieces and ships and what-not.

 

To the career mode testers, I have a question - what is the process of making a career mode template? I know you guys probably don't see it from the developers-eye-view, but I'd be curious how that goes about, just to understand the backend of the game better.

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2 hours ago, Legioneod said:

Not in my experience in the career mode. Marshaling/Classification yards are non existent on the Bodenplatte map so rail attacks aren't too common in-game.

Railyards are something that are sorely needed in the Bodenplatte map, the one thing I was looking forward to is attacking rail yards like in guncam footage, but it's not possible with the way the map is now.

 

This is especially an issue in '44-'45 for realistic allied campaigns. If the Allies have 48 sorties to every Luftwaffe sortie during Normandy... one would feel very lucky to encounter German aircraft at all... most of the activity is strafing and bombing. In 1945, with a few exceptions (e.g. Ardennes, a couple of massed bomber intercept over Germany itself) the situation is even more skewed... so the obvious conclusion:

 

Having diverse and realistic strafing targets matters for British/Commonwealth & American fighter pilots as much as it does for Soviet Sturmovik pilots.

 

 

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On 1/29/2020 at 11:32 PM, Feathered_IV said:

I don’t have the Bodenplatte chapter, but does the allied offensive against rail traffic feature there?   

Cannot answer THAT question since I'm on the german side but while being commanding officer of the KG51 equipped with the fighter bomber version of the Me 252 there were railway attack missions.

 

However, the trains were stationary within urban areas with some trucks and tanks araound them, probably to simulate unloading troops.

 

In other words: trains yes, moving no.

 

So, probably there are "stationary" missions also available on the allied side in BOBP.

 

best

eastriverman

 

 

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On 1/30/2020 at 4:29 PM, ACG_Alexmarine said:

 

This is particularly puzzling to me as RoF (which as far as I know was built on the same engine) clearly had in the mission generator more AI getting spawned and running their own missions, often having an impact on the mission generated for the player unit (random fighter sweep/ recon flight) or responding to it (fighter spawning on the airfields to intercept player flight). At the same time on both sides there were always truck convoys/trains/tanks assaults going on the ground...

 

More than the game engine itself (which surely also had some initial problems compared in the transition from RoF, remember the 10km fog?) I still think that the AI-demanded resources are what are bogging down the missions so easily...

I'm with you!

 

Things have become worse which is pretty obvious when comparing Great Battles with another spawn within the Sturmovik universe, let's say RoF.

 

In RoF, the planes of any squadron present on the map, no matter if AI or player's squadron, have skins with historically correct makings of these squadrons. There are even aces present which you can duel with and their planes have individual markings. Cool!

 

In GB none of that. All planes only have a a single dull camouflage paint job (winter/summer in BoS, BoM, Bok; bare metal in BoBP) and national insignia,  no squadron markings, no aces no individual markings. Dull and boring...

 

In RoF, all ground objects present in the quick missions are also present in career mode and they are "attackable". This especially incudes moving trains AND ships! In GB some ground objects are missing, especially ships and trains.

 

Though, that's not completely correct: In BoM, BoS, BoK trains and ships are completely missing, but in BOBP you have some fighter bomber missions against stationary trains in urban areas (german side, don't know about allied side).

 

In RoF, as a commanding officer you are allowed to fly a "lone wolf mission" at your own will after the duty missions of that day are completed and on that mission you can act as you like. Adds a little bit of freedom. In GB...........guess what.

 

In RoF, the AI occaisonally showed a glimpse of intelligence. For example, sometimes just after lifting off the airfield for a mission, I found myself in the middle of an attack on my airfield.

That evolved into a thrilling encounter in which I had to fight hard to keep my digital pilot avatar alive. Never saw something even close to that in GB.

 

May it be helpful to ask the people who made RoF how they did it and put it into GB? Maybe....

 

I also noticed a fading quality in the GB careers.

 

 In BoS and BoM the phases of the battles were introduced by animated cutscenes with underlying audio text. Not groundbraking, but ok for me

 

In BoK only bad animations, no audio, only some dull lines of text displayed.

 

Finally, in BOPB there are no cutscenes at all but a lot of bugs which are known since months but still not fixed. You remember this bug where AI pilots stand upright in the canopies instead of sitting in them? It's still there, just saw it yesterday.

 

There are more serious bug, real show stoppers, that can ruin your pilot career. I found one myself but did not report it. Why should I when it's not fixed anyway?

 

Though, don't ask me why, I'm still a faithful fan. I even bought the Normandy content without having seen even a single piece of artwork.

 

However, believe me this, I'm afraid asking myself what I can expect from Normandy Battles.

 

All of the above is not big news.

 

It's pretty much identical to the verdict of game testers from numerous computer game magazines who made reviews of the first IL-2 and it's reincarnations.

 

All of them were highly impressed by the graphics and and the realism of any technical detail but they were much less impressed by the singleplayer experience offered by the game.

 

It's all about presentation and longterm motivation. That's what makes an outstanding game.The recipes to reach that goal are simple and well-known, but not realised here.

 

On the other hand,  there are always two sides and, strangely enough, I can understand the developers, too.

 

They are passionate, engaged, hard working  and very talented people which created an amazingly complex piece of software.

 

Unfortunately, compared to the blockbuster games from the big studios like electronic arts or UBIsoft, selling in the millions, there is only a small market for flightsims.

 

Bugfixing is then a tedious but also a neccessary task. However, it makes only those people happy who already bought the game but it does not generate income.

 

Therefore, since the develeopers have to make a living from what they are doing, they have to publish new content. New content introduces new bugs.

 

With limited manpower this creates conflicts. There's simply no time at all to fix the new bugs and the known ones as well and to improve the singleplayer part of the game and, and,.....

 

So, what now? Game over?

 

As a single buyer I can cannot do much more to financially support the developers because I already bought pretty much every content ever offered since the first IL-2.

 

But what about the community?

 

It's fantastic!

 

So many helpful and talented people which put a lot of time and effort into the improvement of the game and they are faithful fans.

 

I suppose they are willing and capable to support the developers in many ways with the improvements.

 

There are skinners , mission builders, tool makers, content testers.........

 

Only a very stupid thought: What about teaming up?

 

Hopefully

eastriverman

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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