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P47 Throttle Quadrant project.


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MadkiteMadkite

I don't know where to put this so I thought i would start here. 

 

I'm working on the cad model of a P47 thunderbolt with K14 gun sight + water injection switch handle. 

 

Intending to build with a myriad of tools and CNC + 3D printing. 

 

The thing is based on as many original drawing as i could find. Though as the quadrant itself was bought in there is little on it. But all the parts Republic added are original as possible to drawings. With some made to be done with metric equivalent sheet or thread. But still mostly original. 

 

Is anyone here interested in the 3D files or plans one I have finished this labour of love? Still some way to go.   

P47_throttle_2020-Jan-26_10-06-18PM-000_CustomizedView29816912155.png

P47_throttle_2020-Jan-26_10-08-27PM-000_CustomizedView27249227346.png

P47_throttle_2020-Jan-26_08-17-27PM-000_CustomizedView8285942353.png

3ef5339b-7c2d-416b-b85f-07bc9491cb49.PNG

P47_throttle_2020-Jan-22_10-36-35PM-000_CustomizedView11405953570.png

P47_throttle_2020-Jan-22_10-33-57PM-000_CustomizedView43218954152.png

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Legioneod

I was planning on making a working P-47 throttle for Il2 for some time. I don't know how to do cad so I was just going to scratch build it from some metal or some other material and do all the wiring/electronics to get it to function in Il2.

 

Are you making this as a working throttle or just a model? Very interested in seeing your progress.

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MadkiteMadkite

I,m making it as original as possible. So even the water injection switch on the end is being made. It a LOT of parts. But will work as original.   

 

Yes, I have an illness. Because you wouldn't do this otherwise.

 

Once its mounted I intend to put levers, and a cable connection for the handle to work axis in a box in front. Thinking sliding magnets with hall effect sensors. And enclosed in a retro utilitarian aluminium housing 1940s style. 

 

http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=94&products_id=180

 

One of these will do all the electronic side. 

 

 

The only issue on electronics I have is the original water injection switch was always on. Where IL2 works on a toggle. But if i change the contact shape I can make it do that so its not a huge issue. 

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Legioneod
32 minutes ago, MadkiteMadkite said:

I,m making it as original as possible. So even the water injection switch on the end is being made. It a LOT of parts. But will work as original.   

 

Yes, I have an illness. Because you wouldn't do this otherwise.

 

Once its mounted I intend to put levers, and a cable connection for the handle to work axis in a box in front. Thinking sliding magnets with hall effect sensors. And enclosed in a retro utilitarian aluminium housing 1940s style. 

 

http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=94&products_id=180

 

One of these will do all the electronic side. 

 

 

The only issue on electronics I have is the original water injection switch was always on. Where IL2 works on a toggle. But if i change the contact shape I can make it do that so its not a huge issue. 

There were three main versions of the water injection activation in the real P-47.

1. A toggle switch like we have in-game but this was mostly on early D blocks and N blocks iirc, later blocks had a different activation.

 

2. An automatic activation that activated once the throttle was moved nearly full forward. This was only on a few P-47D blocks and was removed until some later N blocks.

 

3. A switch similar to #1 but instead of being toggled on/off it was spring loaded and the pilot would have to hold the switch in the on position to activate water injection, once the pilot let go of the switch it would return to the off position. (This is the one we should actually have in-game but we have the toggle instead, I'm assuming for ease of use)

 

Best bet would probably be to go with #1 just so it matches up to what we have in-game.

Edited by Legioneod
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vonrickenbecker

First off, BEAUTIFUL CAD work! Well done. Secondly, YES! I would be very interested in CAD files or plans when they are complete. Looking forward to seeing how this goes!

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10 hours ago, Legioneod said:

3. A switch similar to #1 but instead of being toggled on/off it was spring loaded and the pilot would have to hold the switch in the on position to activate water injection, once the pilot let go of the switch it would return to the off position. (This is the one we should actually have in-game but we have the toggle instead, I'm assuming for ease of use)

 

 

I think this is the ideal solution for game controls - that don't work like IRL*, could be done with the use of an (MON)-OFF-(MON) switch.

 

If use use a ON-OFF switch, like original in the drawings, in game will be need turn switch ON for enable water injection, turn OFF (what don't send command for game) and turn ON again for disable. Awkward.

 

Can modify the original switch drawing internally for became momentary switch only in middle of course or an ON-OF switch in both ends.

 

Or use a keymapper software for switch press an key in ON and OFF state (JoyToKey, SVMapper, Joystick Gremlin...)

 

*IRL the switch enable/disable a electric current for water injection circuit, game use only change state, an key press turn ON, the same keypress turn OFF.

 

 

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MadkiteMadkite

Thanks.

 

Regarding the switch of this version.

 

One of the reason I picked this one, apart from it looks the coolest. Is that I can get all the original drawings for it. I can find none for the others but this version is all there.  

I can make it a momentary switch by changing the contact shape. By making it only have contact when first depressed on a thin strip, then when you slide it over under the cap, it loses contact with one strip. It make contact again temporarily when you switch it off. It a simple 5 minuet file job to the part. It so easy I may not draw it in.

 

It avoids all electronic complication then for a bit of filing. Sometimes the simple things work best.  

 

When its done I may well do plans if people want. Also cad files in whatever formats are desirable.

 

People have suggested sites to sell them. Though most of this is not stable for 3D print. Which unless you are cncing it the 3D files will just be a nicety and for the knobs. The plans may be more useful. But you will need a lathe and mill. Some of it has to be really spot on to work. I'm not even sure how I will get the bends as precise as they need to be yet. Will most likely have to make special jigs. Which I would have to include in the plans.        

 

If my plans for production go well I may make a few. Absolutely no idea what it would cost but it wouldn't be cheep just for the time involved.  

 

This is a long haul project to be come a real thing. Make no mistake.      

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MadkiteMadkite

My biggest issue now seems to be fusion 360 is grinding to a halt. The thing is just getting to complex. May have to break it down for drawings. A complete assembly view seems to almost be impossible to process!  

Ok, so I cant do the knurling modded on the handle and actually work with the model. It adds way to much complexity to the 3D model. It can actually load now. That will just have to be a drawing annotation for pragmatism. But it annoys my obsessiveness like hell.    

Handle draw.jpg

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MadkiteMadkite

So the CNC router is on its way. Will be some time before I am making successful parts I think. 

 

These cheep ones usually need a bit of love and cables/electronics upgrade.   

 

Will be testing on scrap till I'm happy.  

 

Designed a parallel mount based of the original. Not much point in the crazy angle of the original unless you are mounting in a cockpit. And my wife wont allow that. 

eeb38eb3-e258-438f-a28b-f96d5e8a7df9.PNG

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MadkiteMadkite

Update. 

Have done some of the drawings for parts but mainly been working on the CNC router.  

 

As expected I need to relapse all the controllers. Its not that complicated but it more time waiting for parts and a bit of a tedious and slow job to do nicely.   

 

The quadrant itself is now completely finished in CAD. So if anyone wants to buy the fusion 360 file I'm happy to sort out putting it up somewhere. The drawings will be some time as they are quite tedious to do and require time to make sure all the information required to make the part is in them. As an engineer I all to well know the pain of having dimensions you need left off or details not explained. They may not be the nicest looking, but I am trying my beat not to miss any info you need to make it.  

But any dimensions, drawings or STL files can all be generated from the model in fusion 360. And you can have a home licence for that free. It has loads of tutorials on it so it should not take long to learn to make some plans from a 3D file.   

 

This is however designed to be as original as I think I can build. So its not a 3D printer and a few hand tools project. Its even a hard project for only manual machine tools like lathes and mills. The original had cast parts and other geometries that are very hard to make any other way without a CNC. Though arguably some of those parts could be 3D printed. Like the mount for the stop. But I'm to anal for that when the original was aluminium.         

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lightbulbjim

How is the tension control going to work? Does the one knob adjust the friction of all the levers? How do you balance the need for the main throttle lever to have more resistance than the smaller levers (due to the difference in leverage)?

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MadkiteMadkite

You cant have different tension between the leavers. 

 

I have not seen a design like this that shows that was ever done. And I am doing it as original as possible. 

 

As far as working in the aircraft as long as it didn't move due to vibration and held the position you set them in while still being able to move the lever that's all that was important.

 

The throttle being easier to move would not really be a drawback is it would be the most frequently adjusted lever. 

 

And the extra leverage comes in as when advancing the throttle, due to the clips that spring out you can be moving 3 leavers at once when you move the throttle. 

 

It would be deviating from original to change this feature. Though I have changed the mechanics a little to allow the use of conventional springs, it still pushes on the stack in exactly the same way. 

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Its interesting looking at Aviation company solutions to parts.The P51 used 2 mechanisms,the throttle lever can be tightened by the middle front T knob which pulls the rear splined cylinder against the clutch pack towards the middle.The prop and mixture round knob pushes the front splined cylinder against the clutches against the middle..

51 throttle parts.jpg

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  • 1 month later...
MadkiteMadkite

Update.

So I have been playing with my CNC and am about ready to start making stuff for this. 

 

Sadly with all this going on I am not that flush right now to get all the material. I have some to make a start but its going to be a tight few months.   

 

Still at least I get to use my time off. 

Will post some pics of parts once I start. Probably next week.  

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MadkiteMadkite

Could do. Was looking at late spitfire one that has twisty handle for gyro gun sight.  

 

Am now looking as making the radius bits that have the writing on between the leavers out of aluminium. They were brass but its very expansive and i just can get it right now. They are painted and have brass plates either side so wont know and mechanically will make 0 difference. 

 

And i have a load of big aluminium lumps and plate that should do for it laying around. 

 

Been making up the g code for the domed cap. Because why start with something simple! Just sorting the tool paths has take quite a while as have to do it with whatever cutter i have. Not what i would like. 

 

Getting anything is a long process at the moment. 

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MadkiteMadkite

So did the first machining operation today. 

 

 

The video is rubbish as only had the phone. 

 

Part came out ok considering it was my first go. Confident get a ball mill in to do the inside as has to have sharp edge transition between ball and cylinder. Designed to be turned really. 

So used flat end mill and just did layers of 0.05 mm on the fine pass. 

Also get weird diamond flats in the dome. This is an issue with fusion 360 cam but wont matter. A bit of wet and dry and it will be more than serviceable. Outside will all need polish finishing anyway and I do not have my buffer wheel so all that will have to wait.   

 

Have to do the jig to hold it and do the outside next. The superglue it on. Mill and separate.  

 

Superglue is fantastic as on clean metal, it sticks massively. And heat to about 120c and it gives up so it comes apart no problem. Just have to make sure the part does not get that hot when cutting. 

 

This is one of the complicated bit so the others should not be too bad. The precise bending for the arms will be the next challenge.   

 

Shame I had to use such big stock, but beggars cant be choosers.  

 

20200415_152354.jpg

 

 

Better video quality. 

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MadkiteMadkite

So first complicated bit done. 

Came out very nice. Don't think I will over polish it. Want it to look a bit like its used not perfect. 

 

20200417_150652.jpg

20200417_150646.jpg

20200417_143444.jpg

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Barrett_g

This is outstanding work!!!  Will you be selling copies?  I’m sure I’m gonna want one when you get this throttle done!

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MadkiteMadkite

Been considering it making 3 and selling 2. 

 

Depends how machining goes.

 

They wouldn't be cheep. This kind of this is very very expensive to have such low volume. I mean we are easily talking 1 to 2K for one. 

 

Its a very complex thing to make from scratch. 

 

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MadkiteMadkite

Another delicate bit done. 

Very pleased how this came out. was a fiddle. Had to glue it to a sheet of steel to keep it flat and cool. But got there in the end.  

 

20200428_130611.jpg

20200428_132234.jpg

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spitfirejoe

that is a very cool Project, Looks really nice. I hope you get a very good result at the end, after so much work.

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Barrett_g

Hope this project is still going strong!  I check this thread daily (okay truthfully I check back every few hours) for updates!

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Spitty

Have you tried double sided tape for attaching the aluminium plate to the waste board?Looking amazing.Id kill for something that does that level of engraving.Have a few Spit bits that need engraving.

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MadkiteMadkite

https://www.facebook.com/groups/652767882243811/

 

You can follow progress on my Facebook page for it. 

 

Been upgrading the router bearings so have to align everything again and resurface the spoil board. 

There is aligned, and aligned.

Should stop a lot of the chatter and maybe allow quite a bit more MRR. So can actually use the power in the motor.   

 

Had a really nice guy who had the exact model of throttle on his desk. He very kindly took all sorts of photos and films so have been able to design some of the bits I couldn't.  

 

The cast throttle stop for which I had no plans and also the catches for the leavers with the lock unlock function. 

 

Still have all the parts for the other one in the drawing so have multiple versions of it all in one now. 

 

If somebody has details, or better drawings of the square type handle with the water injection switch that would be cool as fits on the same lever. Could do a third with the original round knob as well if somebody knows how it goes together.     

P47 throttle unknurled locking catches v16.png

P47 throttle unknurled locking catches v9.png

 

On 5/8/2020 at 1:06 AM, Spitty said:

Have you tried double sided tape for attaching the aluminium plate to the waste board?Looking amazing.Id kill for something that does that level of engraving.Have a few Spit bits that need engraving.

 

Yes and its ok for wood. But metal parts you often have to add a little cutting oil and that can kill the glue. And its too soft to hold parts cutting hard materials as it tends to have a little flex and give in it. Also if the part gets hot that can make it let go. Mechanical fixing becomes the only way. Or superglue to a solid metal backing. Superglue holds 100 times stronger. 

 

Its ok for holding wood as it cuts like butter but that is about it. 

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  • 1 month later...
MadkiteMadkite

So not been able to do a lot on the project front as have been working like a demon. 

I have and order for the two mixture plates. So hoping to make it all this weekend as I need  large one anyway. 

 

Still eye candy. 

Got the plate painted and have the g code all ready to make a few. 

20200528_193507.jpg

Autodesk Fusion 360 (Personal - Not for Commercial Use) 12_06_2020 16_51_47 (2).png

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For the levers and smaller flat parts Ive gone for waterjet cutting now.A lot tidier and saves a lot of time...Bringing it all inhouse for you gives a lot less heartache..
Throttle looks amazing :)

Edited by Spitty
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