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DFLion

Medium and Long-Range Artillery not working in the Mission Builder

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I have been trying to get an artillery bombardment working for one of my missions, sadly to no avail. I have carefully read all the support documents, read other posts where members are having similar problems, still no luck?

I know you are all flat out, (really liked the new Panther V released today) though with the Normandy campaign coming up, the Mission building community need this feature to work. In the original IL2 Sturmovik I really liked creating the ground battle under the air battle - and it worked!

Could somebody have a close look at this situation in the Mission Builder and give me a detailed solution if possible.

DFLion 

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Posted (edited)

No answer to your question,  DF Lion ? 

I'm also interested in the "ground battle" problem and I have also posted something about the related difficulties, only yesterday.

This is the text of my post:

"Dear friends, I find it difficult to create ground combat situations within my missions.
Despite having made some situations that work well, in a certain scenario, when I intend to copy it to insert it on another mission, it takes a lot of time to fix it and put it back in place. And, often I can't.
By "OK situation", I mean Soviet cannons and tanks that shoot German ones and vice versa. Cannons often remain silent, sometimes only one side attacks.
I have experienced that some weapons are able to perform a self-attack (IL-2 46 style...), without the need for the Attack Area, others do not, some have a limited range, some only fire "on sight", even if, theoretically, by placing a visible Attack Area above the target, they should attack.
So, I ask some of you, if you have created a typical situation in which, for example, a Soviet tank brigade attacks German positions defended by anti-tank artillery (PaK).
A situation that you can copy and insert on a mission reliably.
Thanks, Stebas

PS. Or, if the template does not work automatically in the new mission (apart from its activation, via MCUs etc.) what are the variables or parameters that prevent this and for this to be verified and possibly modified."

For the moment it seems that the community is not interested in what is happening on the ground...

We hope someone comes to our aid...

Stebas.

Edited by Alfaunostebas11

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On 1/22/2020 at 1:59 AM, DFLion said:

I have been trying to get an artillery bombardment working for one of my missions, sadly to no avail. I have carefully read all the support documents, read other posts where members are having similar problems, still no luck?

I know you are all flat out, (really liked the new Panther V released today) though with the Normandy campaign coming up, the Mission building community need this feature to work. In the original IL2 Sturmovik I really liked creating the ground battle under the air battle - and it worked!

Could somebody have a close look at this situation in the Mission Builder and give me a detailed solution if possible.

DFLion 

 

@DFLion, since it's not clear what long-range artillery is not working for you, or how far away the artillery is from the target area, please see the test mission attached here.  Different types of long-range artillery fire at a target area from distances of 8 Km and further.  There are also some anti-tank positions which have shorter range.  One of my problems was I was inadvertently using AT guns in the long-range positions, because I am not a learned individual when it comes to artillery equipment. Each position has markers of certain types, explained in the mission briefing, to indicate distance from the target.   I created this test mission because I had issues understanding how to get long-range artillery to work, and in the end I was happy to see it works fine when implemented the right way by the mission builder. :)

 

Feel free to look at the mission and how things are set up, and use it as you see fit.  If it still doesn't make sense, then the best thing to do is ask more questions in the Mission Editor forum, and be sure to post your mission so others can take a look and advise on what may be going wrong.

 

@Alfaunostebas11, I wouldn't exactly come to the conclusion that the community isn't interested in helping.  The thing with the Mission builder is  to keep trying and experimenting, in my view.  Making a simple test mission like this one helps to focus on the core question without worry that some other component in a complicated mission may be causing a problem. 

 

Artillery Test.zip

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Thank you Stoopy.

Unfortunately I am experiencing a problem with your file, in the sense that, after saving it, while I can upload it and examine it on the BoS Mission Editor, it does not appear on the IL-2 mission screen, so I cannot launch it.
It's a problem I've had on other occasions. Sometimes I solved it by simply changing the file name and saving it again, but this time it doesn't work ...
Basically, a file is loaded into the Editor, but not into the IL-2 program, so it cannot be tested.
I specify that the name of the file and the mission are identical.
Stebas.
PS. In the meantime, however, I am working on the study of the various artillery units, their characteristics and their maximum useful range. My intent is to prepare a summary table of all types of artillery, so as to facilitate their use in the construction of missions.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Alfaunostebas11 said:

Thank you Stoopy.

Unfortunately I am experiencing a problem with your file, in the sense that, after saving it, while I can upload it and examine it on the BoS Mission Editor, it does not appear on the IL-2 mission screen, so I cannot launch it.
It's a problem I've had on other occasions. Sometimes I solved it by simply changing the file name and saving it again, but this time it doesn't work ...
Basically, a file is loaded into the Editor, but not into the IL-2 program, so it cannot be tested.
I specify that the name of the file and the mission are identical.
Stebas.
PS. In the meantime, however, I am working on the study of the various artillery units, their characteristics and their maximum useful range. My intent is to prepare a summary table of all types of artillery, so as to facilitate their use in the construction of missions.

 

Do you own the IL-2 model 41 (from Battle of Moscow) and Battle of Stalingrad? Both of those are used in the mission.

Edited by JimTM
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Thanks Jim!
Your intervention is as always precious, as is your experience.
I did not believe that the lack of possession of an aircraft was identified by the program before the file was launched, thus inhibiting its appearance in the list of available missions ...
This is an important thing to keep in mind for the future ...
And thanks to Stoppy. The mission works and it seems that almost all cannons fire towards the Kalach base (although most of the victims are procured by Lefh 18). Now I will try to test them in other situations and places, to see if and how they work.

Grazie !
Stebas.

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20 hours ago, JimTM said:

 

Do you own the IL-2 model 41 (from Battle of Moscow) and Battle of Stalingrad? Both of those are used in the mission.

 

Thanks for coming to the support rescue, Jim.   I need to keep basics like that in mind when throwing together a simple test mission for myself.   When everything is already in your library, It's too easy just to grab whatever you feel like. Lapino map and no flyable A/C should be my rule of thumb. 

 

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You're welcome Alfaunostebas11 and Stoopy.

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I think the range is something like 30 km.  Just tonight I got some code working to make artillery fire.  

OL artillery to Attack Area MCU

Move Attack Area MCU to target position

Set radius to whatever your error possibility is

Set target type to ground (not ground target)

Set fire time to whatever you want but something long enough to create a barrage

 

With target type set to ground, the artillery will fire into the specified area, regardless of what may or may not be in the space.

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I made very precise tests and if the distance of the Attack area object linked to the artillery is further than maximum range the artillery units will just not fire.

The Lefh 18 will fire up to 10km and the ML20 up to 17 km give and take a few hundred meters. If you have a mixed set of artillery types all target linked to a master artillery unit, like a mix of Lefh 18 and Ml20 as an example, and you set the range to 9 km, they will all fire. If you set the range at 14 km, you will see only the ML20 firing.

 

To ensure a good rate of fire always use a Force Complete MCU with priority to low and object linked to the master or leading artillery unit.

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, IckyATLAS said:

To ensure a good rate of fire always use a Force Complete MCU with priority to low and object linked to the master or leading artillery unit.

 

Icky, please do you want to explain better why you are using this MCU ?

I normally use Force Complete to stop an action, as an Attack, not to ensure a good rate of fire... but...

Edited by Alfaunostebas11

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Force Complete tells the gun “do your thing” basically.

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To add to Gambit's message... Force Complete tells the artillery to stop doing whatever they're doing and to start shooting.

 

So, you're correct in that you use the Force Complete MCU to stop actions. In this case, it's to stop everything else (force complete) and to start shooting (attack area).

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Force complete is a kind of Swiss knife, and has many functions. 

1) Stop an attack for the planes.

2) Switch ON and OFF the Searchlights

3) For all things that do fire, like artillery ground and AAA, vehicles, boats etc. the priority parameters can define the firing rate.

 

Priority = Low means Fire at Will maximum rate of fire (Barrels red hot glowing)

Priority = Medium means average rate of fire (allow the barrels to cool)

Priority = High means go and have a cup of coffee.

 

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4 hours ago, IckyATLAS said:

I made very precise tests and if the distance of the Attack area object linked to the artillery is further than maximum range the artillery units will just not fire.

The Lefh 18 will fire up to 10km and the ML20 up to 17 km give and take a few hundred meters. If you have a mixed set of artillery types all target linked to a master artillery unit, like a mix of Lefh 18 and Ml20 as an example, and you set the range to 9 km, they will all fire. If you set the range at 14 km, you will see only the ML20 firing.

 

To ensure a good rate of fire always use a Force Complete MCU with priority to low and object linked to the master or leading artillery unit.

 

Salutations,

 

Here is a chart I put together some time back, 🌝

GroundUnitReference.zip

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Well job, Thad !

Only a small correction: I think LeFH 18 is German and not Russian.

 

On 3/25/2020 at 3:44 PM, IckyATLAS said:

Force complete is a kind of Swiss knife, and has many functions. 

1) Stop an attack for the planes.

2) Switch ON and OFF the Searchlights

3) For all things that do fire, like artillery ground and AAA, vehicles, boats etc. the priority parameters can define the firing rate.

 

Priority = Low means Fire at Will maximum rate of fire (Barrels red hot glowing)

Priority = Medium means average rate of fire (allow the barrels to cool)

Priority = High means go and have a cup of coffee.

 

Sorry Icky but I didn't know about this third function for Force Complete, as I don't think the Manual mentions it.
But it intrigues me.
Normally I place an Attack Area (maybe with high priority) and Object link it to the guns. So this is not enough?
And where do we put the Force Complete, before, after or in substitution of Attack Area?

Thank you.
 

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As 'Force Complete' tells the units to stop everything they are doing
it should be placed before any new orders

And the new orders should have a delay to make sure the 'Force Complete' was accomplished by the units...

 

Deci

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The two are complementary. If we take artillery the Attack area will define the zone where your rounds will land. This the main function. The larger the zone the more dispersed the hits will be the smaller the zone the more concentrated they will be. Depending on the Attack Ground or Attack ground targets the hits will aim specific enemy targets example linked entities with an opposed nationality (say soviet artillery against german vehicle targets). If you tick both you get a kind of mixed result between hits on targets and on the area.

The priority parameter of the Attack Area when used for the Artillery is not clear for me and this is why I use a Force Complete in addition because I know exactly the effect. I trigger the Force Complete 3 seconds after the Attack Area has been activated. This seems logical to me, like first you aim your artillery in the right direction and then you decide the rate of fire.

It should be the same for Ships like the destroyer.

 

By the way the priority parameter in waypoints has also the same meaning as the Force Complete. If you have a train with artillery, you do not need a Force complete command just use the Low priority on a waypoint to have the artillery on the train fire at will. On the next waypoint just set it to High and guns will stop. This is the same for ships, Tanks.

 

The priority parameter behavior of the Attack Area has similar effects to Force Complete when used with planes. With planes Force Complete does interrupt an Attack or AttackArea MCU probably by deactivating it, and by that disconnects the link between the attack area and the previous waypoint. In this way you can trigger a new waypoint.

 

In waypoints for planes the priority parameter has a double function hence many misunderstandings. It will define if the plane will take evasive action if attacked (Low and Medium priority) and come back to its initial course afterward, or if he will fly straight to the next waypoint impervious to enemy attacks (High priority). For a simple fighter this is ok. But for bombers or other planes that have gunners on board that can fire in different direction this creates an absurd situation. On a bombing run where you must fly straight if you use the High priority then all guns on the plane will remain silent and bombers will be downed by the enemy fighters without defending themselves. So the Medium priority seems okay, except that bombers may sway from their trajectory.

 

All this to say that you must try, try and try to find the combinations that will suit your scenario. There is no free lunch here, just test, try, experiment, test and play with your parameters and combinations of them. Sorry can't help you  more than that.

 

 

 

 

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49 minutes ago, Alfaunostebas11 said:

...

Sorry Icky but I didn't know about this third function for Force Complete, as I don't think the Manual mentions it.
...

 

I discovered that behaviour long after writing the manual.

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You said very fair things Icky. I had already experienced many things, others not of what you say. But the fairest thing you say is that there is nothing 100% certain, you just have to try, try and try.
This is, in my opinion, the beauty of this Mission Editor, where everyone has their own way of working and where the same actions and identical objectives can be achieved through different procedures and logics ...
Nobody has the truth in the pocket and there is no text that is the Gospel.

1 hour ago, JimTM said:

 

I discovered that behaviour long after writing the manual.

Yes Jim, naturally I didn't mean to give you any fault.

I had understood that this function emerged after the writing of your manual, as it also appears from the fact that currently the Force Complete command has now three priority levels, while you had described only two, reffered to the on/off lights.
 
 
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In the meantime, I have experienced what we are discussing in a small ground attack mission, where two ML-20s shoot from a convenient distance (about 7 km) to an airfield where some vehicles are stationed.
I tried using the classic Attack Area method (setting HIGH priority, Ground Area AND Ground Targets) and then putting a Force Complete command (setting HIGH priority), 3 seconds after activating Attack Area function.
The classic solution works and the two cannons each fire with a rate of fire of about 3-3.5 shots per minute, achieving some kills.
The second solution paralyzes the two ML-20s which evidently interpret Force Complete as a stop to the previous command and don't fire.
I also tried to place the Force Command before the Attack Area, but in this case it is ignored and the cannons fire with the same rate of fire that they have in the absence of the Force Complete.

Ultimately it seems to me that the artillery follows the last command it receives, ignoring the previous ones (moreover, as it would seem logical ...)
But, maybe I'm doing something wrong.
I attach the files with the two different solutions.
Stebas.

Artillery Test.rar

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One hypothesis that I would like to verify is that Force Complete can be applied, to adjust the rate of fire to those individual artillery units that shoot alone, without the need for the Attack Area command... perhaps it could be possible...

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Posted (edited)
On 3/27/2020 at 2:39 PM, Alfaunostebas11 said:

One hypothesis that I would like to verify is that Force Complete can be applied, to adjust the rate of fire to those individual artillery units that shoot alone, without the need for the Attack Area command... perhaps it could be possible...

Maybe but not very logical. Artillery units if they fire they must know the direction and distance if we speak of covering an area, or with a direct attack command that targets a specific entity. Otherwise if they just fire at random the risk is having shells coming down either on friendlies or on civilians, because if an artillery unit fires a round the shell will end somewhere. We cannot have the choice of firing blanks. 

My guess is that if you set Force Complete to low for one artillery unit, it will not fire if there is no enemy object at range and in the global direction in which it can fire. For a fixed unit there is a lateral angle tolerance. If there is an enemy at range and well placed it will fire until it is destroyed and then stop.

Edited by IckyATLAS

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On 3/27/2020 at 6:39 AM, Alfaunostebas11 said:

One hypothesis that I would like to verify is that Force Complete can be applied, to adjust the rate of fire to those individual artillery units that shoot alone

 

Force Complete has nothing to do with -adjusting rate of fire.

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16 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

Force Complete has nothing to do with -adjusting rate of fire.

 

Don't say that to me Gambit, but to IcklyATLAS ...

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9 minutes ago, Alfaunostebas11 said:

 

Don't say that to me Gambit, but to IcklyATLAS ...

 

I choose to say it to you based on your post. 

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OK Gambit, but if you read the discussion, I am of your idea, that Force Complete has no effect on the rate of fire ...

 

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No problem - I was just adding my experience on the matter. ;)

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Posted (edited)

As usual things are a little more complicated.

There are two types of artillery:

- Anti Aircraft Artillery be it on the ground or on a vehicle, the rate of fire controlled by Force Complete applies.

- Ground based artillery, and here Force Complete does not control rate of fire and Gambit is right.

My fault not being clear and mixed it up because I have combinations of both in complicated combinations.

For artillery or machine guns on trains the Waypoint Priority does to control the rate of fire.

 

 

Edited by IckyATLAS

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