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9900KS versus future 10900K, worth to wait?


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On 5/11/2020 at 10:27 AM, ZachariasX said:

 

As of now, the 10 series CPUs we are looking for just don't exist in the market. If they are hitting the shelves in reasonably quantity and price only toward the end of the year (my current guess), then they might be DoA, as AMD's Zen3 CPUs are expected around that time. From what I read now, It would not only far exeeed Intels offering as a platform, but also quiet likely surpass Intel at the last metric (the one we care for) which is sheer net single core performance.

 

The Intel 9 series chips currently are rather good for IL2. And you can actually buy them.

 

After having seen some reviews, I guess 10900K isn´t worth the wait. I´ll go with 9900K or KS for the future.

 

Here:

 

 

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If I could get my hands on a i9-10900K, I would disable Hyper Threading, OC the chip to 5Ghz or higher (seeing people getting to 5.3Ghz on a regular 280mm AIO) and call it a day. Ten cores won't make a difference for Il-2, but it could come in handy for MFS 2020 for example. To run 10 physical cores at 5.2Ghz would be sweet, that's for sure. HT disabled would also mean lower temps.

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Ha, I was about to post the Gamers Nexus video.

 

tl;dr: The 10600K can match the 9900K if you overclock the chip to 5.1ghz and do a bit of uncore (ring ratio) and memory overclocking. That's a pretty awesome result for a cheap (ish) chip, and given the recent deferred rendering improvements might make the 10600K the "go to" Intel chip for running IL2.

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2 hours ago, SeaW0lf said:

If I could get my hands on a i9-10900K, I would disable Hyper Threading, OC the chip to 5Ghz or higher (seeing people getting to 5.3Ghz on a regular 280mm AIO) and call it a day. Ten cores won't make a difference for Il-2, but it could come in handy for MFS 2020 for example. To run 10 physical cores at 5.2Ghz would be sweet, that's for sure. HT disabled would also mean lower temps.

 

I have 8 cores on my 9900k running at 5.2 GHz and it handles this sim in VR pretty darn good.

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The deal with the 10900K is you should be reasonably able to boost up to 5.3 Ghz on single threaded applications. I'd think, for Il-2 purposes, this would be an effective 5.3GHz chip, rather than a 5.0-5.1Ghz chip we saw in the 9900K/9900KS

 

That said, it appears that the 4.0006 patch had some significant performance improvements, and I haven't seen any looks yet on whether it has spread out the thread loading more, so testing is needed.

 

Flight Sims are a different beast from AAA console titles, and have different requirements. We need to remember that when making comparisons.

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7 hours ago, Voyager said:

The deal with the 10900K is you should be reasonably able to boost up to 5.3 Ghz on single threaded applications. I'd think, for Il-2 purposes, this would be an effective 5.3GHz chip, rather than a 5.0-5.1Ghz chip we saw in the 9900K/9900KS

 

 

Probably not as IL-2 will move around the different cores, and the 5.3 single threaded boost will not move around with it.

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According to ChipHell, there's an AMD CPU refesh inbound shortly:

 

RYZEN 9 3900XT - 4.1GHz base, 4.8GHz boost.
RYZEN 7 3800XT - 4.2GHz base, 4.7GHz boost.
RYZEN 5 3600XT - 4.0GHz base, 4.7GHz boost.

 

Basically the same we have now, but just improved manufacturing and better binning. Supposedly those chips are introduced on June 16th. That'd be a mighty kick in the crotch for Intel. But it would bridge the time until the end of 2020, when 4000-Series Ryzens are expected, codemane "Vermeer".

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This past weekend I have been testing the new updated version with the fpsVR application.

It was amazing how the CPU frametimes were well below 12.5 ms  (1/80 for Index), they were below even with several planes around, Kuban map, etc.

I see now that the bottleneck has been move from CPU to GPU now, and our long journey in trying to find the most superpowerful CPU for IL-2 VR has ended.

I think I will not upgrade my current 4790K for this year, it is doing a great job right now and the upgrade to higher chips will not bring me too much more fps than before.

 

So this game update has saved me some € for the CPU/RAM/Mobo/OS.

 

But on the other hand I could consider upgrade the GPU when new NVidia cards will arrive.

 

So, the answer to this post is not  9900K neither 10900K, it is 4790K  😉

 

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Deferred Rendering does put little more on the GPU, but single threaded CPU horsepower still plays a  role as well along with  ram speed and latency.

Helps make for a good balanced system. 

;)

 

Edited by dburne
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I have a delidding kit that just arrived for my 8086K, which I ordered before the patch made the CPU improvements. I'm actually thinking I might not do it. I dunno, it would be nice to use less voltage on the chip and need less cooling. How safe is delidding?

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I would say it is pretty safe if you are used to mess around with your rig. I was going to delid my i7-3770K and I bought five or six old CPUs for peanuts to practice, I think core duo ones, which also used TIM paste back then. Each cost me around 3 U$ dollars. I delided all of them with no sweat. You can also practice cleaning the TIM paste. But I ended up selling my i7 before I could delid it. This way you can have an idea how it is done and if you want to delid your chip or not.

 

The metallic paste seems to be a bit tricky to apply (never tried), but the gains in temps are tempting. Then you have to get a good silicon to glue the cap back in place (I think some people just hold the cap with the socket cap, with no glue). So you need to do some research and put in some work to find the best method for you. But the act of deliding seemed to be pretty straightforward to me if your delid kit is the correct one / is a good one.

 

But my experience ends there. I just did it once and only with the old CPUs.

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30 minutes ago, SeaW0lf said:

I would say it is pretty safe if you are used to mess around with your rig. I was going to delid my i7-3770K and I bought five or six old CPUs for peanuts to practice, I think core duo ones, which also used TIM paste back then. Each cost me around 3 U$ dollars. I delided all of them with no sweat. You can also practice cleaning the TIM paste. But I ended up selling my i7 before I could delid it. This way you can have an idea how it is done and if you want to delid your chip or not.

 

The metallic paste seems to be a bit tricky to apply (never tried), but the gains in temps are tempting. Then you have to get a good silicon to glue the cap back in place (I think some people just hold the cap with the socket cap, with no glue). So you need to do some research and put in some work to find the best method for you. But the act of deliding seemed to be pretty straightforward to me if your delid kit is the correct one / is a good one.

 

But my experience ends there. I just did it once and only with the old CPUs.

I paid some dude to do it, he has done over 50 delid so for him it was one more job, we didn't sweat a drop and for 25€ he did it at the first try.

Edited by E69_Qpassa_VR
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8 minutes ago, E69_Qpassa_VR said:

I paid some dude to do it, he has done over 50 delid so for him it was one more job, we didn't sweat a drop and for 25€ he did it at the first try.

 

That's an option as well, but I personally like to learn about everything that goes into my rig.

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17 minutes ago, E69_Qpassa_VR said:

Do you know everything about your GPU, did you replace the cooling system? The way data is being stored in the RAM? For what's everything in the motherboard? 😂

 

Whatever I can put my hands on, I'll do it, deliding included. 

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On ‎5‎/‎25‎/‎2020 at 12:19 PM, ZachariasX said:

…....the end of 2020, when 4000-Series Ryzens are expected, codemane "Vermeer".

 

This will change everything. My wallet is primed and ready to release.

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On 5/26/2020 at 11:55 AM, Alonzo said:

I have a delidding kit that just arrived for my 8086K, which I ordered before the patch made the CPU improvements. I'm actually thinking I might not do it. I dunno, it would be nice to use less voltage on the chip and need less cooling. How safe is delidding?

 

I delided a 4670k a few years back and put liquid metal on it and got marginal performance gains TBH.

as for how safe it is... I used a razor blade and used a bit too much force and broke off one of the resistors? next to the die. luckily the processor didn't mind and worked perfectly after.

 

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  • 4 months later...

guys, sorry for the slight hijack of the thread, but, still 9900K relevant: given Il-2 BoX only uses one core, is there any sense (for temperature reasons) to only overclock one core (currently have all cores at 5.2ghz on a test basis, had no issue with 5ghz so far)? Or does this not make any sense/would slow down the game?

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2 hours ago, DD_Llama_Thumper said:

guys, sorry for the slight hijack of the thread, but, still 9900K relevant: given Il-2 BoX only uses one core, is there any sense (for temperature reasons) to only overclock one core (currently have all cores at 5.2ghz on a test basis, had no issue with 5ghz so far)? Or does this not make any sense/would slow down the game?

 

Best to have all cores running the same, as IL-2 will move that thread around to different cores constantly.

I have always had my 8 cores all running at  5.2 GHz.

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On 10/2/2020 at 10:20 PM, DD_Llama_Thumper said:

given Il-2 BoX only uses one core

 

This is not true.

IL-Box has many threads and one of them is the heavy one. That heavy one thread is jumping from core to core.

Having 4 cores is quite OK for IL-2 VR. There is no evidence of having more cores benefits the performance of IL-2 VR.

 

If I would have an 9900K (or 9900KS or any other CPU with 8 cores) I would do the following experiment:

 

1. set OC to 5.0GHz in all 8 cores (no hyperthreading)

2. Create a Flight record of 2-3 minutes and run it following a similar approach to the old Remagen benchmark test. Take note of the fps.

3. Disable 4 cores in the BIOS, set OC to 5.00 in the 4 cores. And run the test. Check if performance is decreased.

4. Try to achieve a better OC (with only 4 cores running you will achieve a higher OC). Then run the test.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/20/2020 at 2:31 AM, Alonzo said:

I think your best bet is probably to buy a pre-binned, pre-delidded 9900KS along with a 360mm AIO, or even consider more exotic cooling solutions (Linus had some kind of active chiller thing, a preproduction model, or you could go with a custom loop). A motherboard that is known-good for overclocking especially of RAM and the north bridge too (I thought I had a good motherboard for overclocking, it turns out I can't tune as much as I would like when it comes to memory OC). And some DDR4-4000 CAS16 or something.

 

Sorry Alonzo for exhumating your old post but is it possible to give some general direction on what to look for when selecting a motherboard?

 

I am mainly interested in the highlighted section above. Is it possible to objectively see the overclocking capabilities in the specs or is it only reliably available in the reviews (which can be subjective unfortunately)?

 

I can find my way around CPUs and GPUs but I am totally lost when it comes to motherboards.

 

Thanks

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5 hours ago, HunDread said:

Sorry Alonzo for exhumating your old post but is it possible to give some general direction on what to look for when selecting a motherboard?

 

I am mainly interested in the highlighted section above. Is it possible to objectively see the overclocking capabilities in the specs or is it only reliably available in the reviews (which can be subjective unfortunately)?

 

Great question. It's not easy.

 

Generally, there is a correlation between good power delivery and overclocking ability for a motherboard. Power delivery is measured in "phases" which is the number of discrete 'filtering' steps the power goes through before it gets to the CPU. Entry level boards have 8-phase, high-end ones have maybe 14-phase. But as with many things, not all "phases" are equal. Sometimes there's a "motherboard round up" web page that lists the number of power phases for all of the boards (I used this to find myself a Z370 motherboard back when I bought my 8086K).

 

The other thing to look at is reviews. This is difficult too because often a reviewer knows jack-all about real overclocking ability or stability, and they just use motherboard "auto overclock" settings and say "it's a good overclocker". Yeah. So I try to read some reviews but often the overclocking section is lightweight.

 

Finally price. To a certain extent, you get what you pay for. You don't want the cheapest board but you don't need the most expensive. A rough rule of thumb that I use is to look at the cheapest board and add $50, then try to spend around that price point. Usually a "gaming" or "pro" branded board is going to be alright at overclocking.

 

For myself, I bought an MSI Z370 SLI Plus board. It was available from the local supplier I usually use, it had 10 or 12 phase power delivery, and reviews seemed decent. It does overclock well, but the auto settings are a bit trash. It used a lot of voltage for system agent and CPU IO, and it doesn't seem to like super-fast RAM. So although I got my CPU to 5.1ghz, some of the other features on the board were less-than perfect. But not bad.

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5 hours ago, HunDread said:

I am totally lost when it comes to motherboards.

 

I am also lost with MoBos for best CPU/RAM OC.

But you can take a look of the tested xmp profiles of Intel where they indicated the Mobo of the Test, so you can´t be wrong with that:

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/gaming/extreme-memory-profile-xmp.html

 

You can download the excel sheet and select you CPU. You will see really nice RAM speeds with 1.5 volts. I have also noted that those Mobos only have 2 DIMM slots.

Mobos.thumb.png.198f6753655978a0c7f0d6749840a8f5.png

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