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KPnutskgwanchos

Losing low level Dogfights multiple enemies - Ten Days of Autumn Mission 2

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So Im not new to combat flight sims but I would say I have a lot to learn regards tactics in dogfights!

 

In mission 2 of BlackSix’s Ten Days of Autumn Im escorting a JU52 at 800m and we are jumped by a large force of enemy fighters. Im really struggling to maintain enough energy to close on the enemy fighters…. Im beginning to get the hang of split S turns etc but with so many enemies perhaps Im over reacting.

 

In a 4 on one fight at low level in a 109 F2 (engine management full auto) what would you folks suggest ….. extend away and try for height first? … Am I wasting time trying to turn with them? …. Should I just try to escape?

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Dont worry. You'll get used to it.

Sometimes even very basic topics have little but important tips!

 

Also if you can fly MP with a buddy/wingman on cons, that's a great way to learn new stuff

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109F-2 can wipe the floor with those fighters in that mission. That is actually a fun little campaign.

 

Fly the F-2 like a jet - use your speed and firepower.

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If I remember that mission correctly, you're going up against I-16's?  Pesky little buggers that can turn on a dime. So I wouldn't turn with them, keep your speed up and fight more in the vertical, until at least you get down to one remaining and want to play around with him a little bit.

 

One interesting thing I've wondered about it, there have been big improvements in the AI dogfighting abilities since many campaigns such as this were originally developed and tested.  So the dogfights you are having now are not necessarily the dogfights the developer was able to test with or maybe even intended you to have...things should be tougher.   Which makes re-flying these campaigns for those who have previously completed them, worth considering...  

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4 hours ago, KPnutskgwanchos said:

So Im not new to combat flight sims but I would say I have a lot to learn regards tactics in dogfights!

 

In mission 2 of BlackSix’s Ten Days of Autumn Im escorting a JU52 at 800m and we are jumped by a large force of enemy fighters. Im really struggling to maintain enough energy to close on the enemy fighters…. Im beginning to get the hang of split S turns etc but with so many enemies perhaps Im over reacting.

 

In a 4 on one fight at low level in a 109 F2 (engine management full auto) what would you folks suggest ….. extend away and try for height first? … Am I wasting time trying to turn with them? …. Should I just try to escape?

109F-2 has decent performance advantages at low level against anything the Soviets can throw at them at that time in the war, but its not quite the beast that the 109F-4 is. You have to be a little more careful burning energy in a fight.

 

The I-16s are insane turnfighters and engaging them in the horizontal at similar energy is a recipe for disaster. That being said, they are also the only soviet fighter until you get the La-5FN that can climb with the 109s in a sustained climb. The 109F-2 just barely outclimbs the I-16, and the I-16 actually outclimbs the 109E-7.

For the most part, and to simplify, Good climb rate = good low speed acceleration, which means that once you burn off your excess speed, the I-16 regains speed and altitude nearly as fast as you do while also being able to out-turn you. While you are technically 'faster' at top speed, for most of a dogfight you are not flying at your top speed, and then they can catch you.

So against the I-16, you have the advantage of much higher top speed and a slight advantage in climb, but the I-16 rolls and turns like a demon, so in a knife fight you're at a disadvantage. Good thing the 109 brought a gun.

If you are escorting the Ju-52, you should be doing so from well above it if possible. Keep your speed up and weave to stay with the -52, rather than matching speed with the slower plane, so that if you get jumped you can use your higher speed to 'boom and zoom' the I-16s. When lining up for shots, don't pull hard to put them in your crosshairs - rather, stay high and fast and when you have the opportunity, dive at the point where you think the enemy plane is going to be, adjust, and as they approach your crosshairs pull the trigger and let them fly through your bullet stream. Then, dive through pull up and extend and reset. Do not try and get a tracking shot by pulling hard, and keep your speed above the I-16s.

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I HONESTLY dont get it how people say to stay vertical and use your speed to your advantage. Every time I fight Ratas in the F2, I feel like insta-suicide. No matter what, those ******* always, I mean ALWAYS no exception, they reach my 6 and stick to it like if they are glued to my ass. Cant out dive, out turn, out anything. Yeah the F2 can reach 500 kph but the damned Rata will Snipe you to death before than happen. They just find the way to stay glued to my ass. Actually its the most difficult "1v1 battle" for me. People say Tempest... Pfff, fighting AI tempests is easy as hell. But Ratas.... I try to fly with "discipline": not doing extremely hard turnings, climbing efficiently, flying fast and doing smooth maneuvers, etc. But anything of that works.

MY advice, and only against AI, as I noticed it work only against AI (I barely play MP and didn't try this) and only against Ratas, is to follow this simple 3-words rule:

"Abuse the Rudder". Thousands of pages were written from "experten" about tactics, maneuvers and such... But I cant make them work. Instead, I noticed that abusing the rudder like there's no tomorrow, works pretty fine against Ratas. Dont touch the stick, or do it really softly. Against a Rata, I fly the F2 almost purely with the rudders, no matter how "anti-aerodinamical" that is, I turn using just rudders. What for? To go for a "head on attack". No matter how maneuverable the little plane can be, the F2 (any 109 actually) can and will turn faster (killing Energy in no time, I must admit), allowing you to position yourself in an advantageous position in front of him and shot him in his precious engine (luckily, few shows in Rata engine and its dead) doing turns with full rudder input.

If he is approaching my 6, I dont let him to reach my ass, instead, I press full right (or left) rudder accordingly. After he misses, I dont extend or climb or anything, because he gonna kill me anyway. Instead, I pull the rudder the opposite way looking to reach a good position from where I can smash his engine from the front with my bullets. If I fail on getting a good position, I repeat the process. I find its the only way I can shot them down in the almighty F2.

 

Someone here in the forums made me watch this video:

https://youtu.be/Df5_N5WTlNw

 

That "inspired" me, and mixing that with my "tactic", I, to my great surprise, started bringing down Ratas with the F2. Even in 1v4 battles. 

 

I actually laugh in a macabre way every time I see one of those ***** smashed against the floor, or their engines fail after getting hit with few shots... its so beautiful to my eyes and my soul.

 

Sorry for the bad English and the wall.

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1 hour ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

I HONESTLY dont get it how people say to stay vertical and use your speed to your advantage. Every time I fight Ratas in the F2, I feel like insta-suicide. No matter what, those ******* always, I mean ALWAYS no exception, they reach my 6 and stick to it like if they are glued to my ass. Cant out dive, out turn, out anything. Yeah the F2 can reach 500 kph but the damned Rata will Snipe you to death before than happen. They just find the way to stay glued to my ass. Actually its the most difficult "1v1 battle" for me. People say Tempest... Pfff, fighting AI tempests is easy as hell. But Ratas.... I try to fly with "discipline": not doing extremely hard turnings, climbing efficiently, flying fast and doing smooth maneuvers, etc. But anything of that works.

The I-16 is one of the most nimble aircraft out there. Attempting to turn-fight an I-16 with any 109 is a great recipe for disaster. It beats the F2 in power-weight ratio by 40%(437 vs 314 kw/ton), beats out turning rate by 3.6 seconds, and holds a slightly higher climb rate at sea level. By all means the I-16 will out-turn just about any mono-wing aircraft in the game

 

Conversely the I-16 is very draggy, it does not hold onto speed from dives very well at all. At 3k up it has a maximum speed with boost of only 477 kph, while the 109 F2 can reach 568 kph in level flight without boost, or 594 kph with boost. 

 

If you're opting to engage an I-16 without already being near your top speed without boost, then you've done something very wrong, and remember that choosing your battles is just as important as maneuvering skills.

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2 hours ago, Kataphrakt said:

The I-16 is one of the most nimble aircraft out there. Attempting to turn-fight an I-16 with any 109 is a great recipe for disaster. It beats the F2 in power-weight ratio by 40%(437 vs 314 kw/ton), beats out turning rate by 3.6 seconds, and holds a slightly higher climb rate at sea level. By all means the I-16 will out-turn just about any mono-wing aircraft in the game

 

Conversely the I-16 is very draggy, it does not hold onto speed from dives very well at all. At 3k up it has a maximum speed with boost of only 477 kph, while the 109 F2 can reach 568 kph in level flight without boost, or 594 kph with boost. 

 

If you're opting to engage an I-16 without already being near your top speed without boost, then you've done something very wrong, and remember that choosing your battles is just as important as maneuvering skills.

I was talking about QMB battles, 1v1 or 1vN enemy planes anyway, where I play to actually engage my enemies. I like setting QMB with my plane already on runway against attacking enemies coming to my base in few seconds, I just like to suffer like that.

 

Still, the maneuvers I mentioned worked in the campaign as well, where situations are different from those you find in QMBs.

Anyway, I don't dear to say those maneuvers are "the" right ones. Just saying they work for me against AI. Against humans is a totally different story, and I usually fail there so can't talk about that😄

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11 minutes ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

I was talking about QMB battles, 1v1 or 1vN enemy planes anyway, where I play to actually engage my enemies. I like setting QMB with my plane already on runway against attacking enemies coming to my base in few seconds, I just like to suffer like that.

 

Still, the maneuvers I mentioned worked in the campaign as well, where situations are different from those you find in QMBs.

Anyway, I don't dear to say those maneuvers are "the" right ones. Just saying they work for me against AI. Against humans is a totally different story, and I usually fail there so can't talk about that😄

Just expect that 1v1 in a situation where you do not start with an energy advantage and the enemy aircraft out-specs you in most ways is a pretty painful situation to get into (also assuming equal skill, i'm sure that many of the pilots here would wipe the floor with me even if i had all the advantages). 

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Thanks for replies folks all very useful and interesting.... pretty sure the opposing aircraft in mission 2 are Yaks and the AI was really hot on my ass! .... Im doing some more training in the F2 first following your suggestions before I re attempt it

 

Cheers! 

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7 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

If you are escorting the Ju-52, you should be doing so from well above it if possible. Keep your speed up and weave to stay with the -52, rather than matching speed with the slower plane,

 

I think this is the critical part.  If you are flying close support you won't have much to work with.

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6 hours ago, jarg1 said:

 

I think this is the critical part.  If you are flying close support you won't have much to work with.

Yes I would agree.... However mission briefing states to maintain 800m which is the cloud ceiling.... I guess I might need to use common sence

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7 hours ago, KPnutskgwanchos said:

Yes I would agree.... However mission briefing states to maintain 800m which is the cloud ceiling.... I guess I might need to use common sence

another option is to fly a zig-zag pattern over the aircraft you're escorting. This pattern means you have to fly a lot faster to keep up with the aircraft, and more speed = more energy. 

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