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Spotting improvements in the roadmap?

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As others said in VR many planes are invisible at short ranges and blend too well in the background.

Many times plane 1km away in front of me simply blends to become invisible or you can't check your six or you'll lose him.

Also as Requiem said when plane is above it also blends too well on short distances while IRL i can spot plane miles above me as a dark spot.

 

One of the main problems now is plane LOD where allied planes with camo skin render in white pixels (shine like neon sign) with ground in the background making them easy targets spotted miles away while axis planes blend to well making them impossible to spot even on really short distances.

This makes MP not good option to fly!

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On 1/17/2020 at 9:05 AM, Count_de_Money said:

 

It's not about being sneaked upon, @blitze.  The aircraft simply blends in too much.

 

Prior to this graphical patch (forgot the number) if I'm chasing someone, or just trying to follow them, i.e. the enemy is ahead of me at around 1km I could:

- take away my eyes from the target

- check my six for 3-5 seconds

- return to forward position

- easily find the target ahead of me

- continue chasing it

 

Now? I can't take away my eyes from the target even for 1 second. Because when I return to the general area where the plane should be I won't be able to find it period.

 

Talking about the target fixation here. And not because I want to, but because without it I lose the aircraft completely...

 

it shouldn't be that hard...

 

 

 

Yes, I'm having the same experience.

Look away for 2-3 secs and it's completely gone.

 

 

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I most certainly don't want to go back to the 10km view bubble but at the same time my close range visibility is worse than it has ever been before. I'm lucky if I can spot targets within 5km of me due to them being so small, sometimes it seems they don't even render or that they're only one little pixel that is impossible to see.

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Turning down the gamma a little bit can bring minor spotting improvements. I can now see a little bit better at longer ranges, but when they get closer at around 4-5 km they get almost invinsible.

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On 1/16/2020 at 6:33 PM, Count_de_Money said:

 

yeah, would have to disagree with you there..

 

In VR the spotting is a mess. I can barely spot the aircraft when it's in a turn, however if it's flying straight to/from me - forget about it. Especially the ones on my six... I simply can't see them until they are 100meters behind me... and shooting..

Have you tried This. It does not solve all problems but it sure improves spotting

Edited by No.322_LuseKofte

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For me, in VR having SteamVR Video on Auto and App on 200% seems to help.  At App100% the render res is not enough to make visibility of other aircraft reasonable.  Setting SteamVR App on 200% doesn't seem to carry a fps penalty for me.

 

Really helps on Rheinland with overcast weather.  As for Id-ing aircraft, Luftwaffe planes leave a nice dark smoke trail behind them, Allied ones don't (at least on the Western Front) 😁

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On 1/18/2020 at 2:52 PM, SharpeXB said:

I can see and ID other aircraft very well in 4K. It is not difficult at all, it’s very nice. 

It Seems your the only one in this thread that has no problems in spotting . Next your be telling me you live in the land of the free .. LOL

 

I have been away from this Game for nearly a year and i can tell you NOW its a lot harder .

Up close seems to be the problem here , i have had good sight on target checked my six and that target has vanished , !! its right in front of me . 

Edited by Con
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3 hours ago, Con said:

It Seems your the only one in this thread that has no problems in spotting . Next your be telling me you live in the land of the free .. LOL

 

I have been away from this Game for nearly a year and i can tell you NOW its a lot harder .

Up close seems to be the problem here , i have had good sight on target checked my six and that target has vanished , !! its right in front of me . 

Devs asked for data on this problems not so long ago, they got planty examples of problem and said they gona look into it, so no point in arguing with players who belive there is no problem or dont see problem, whats important thing to me is devs know there is problem and they look how to fix it if posible.

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49 minutes ago, CountZero said:

Devs asked for data on this problems not so long ago, they got planty examples of problem and said they gona look into it, so no point in arguing with players who belive there is no problem or dont see problem, whats important thing to me is devs know there is problem and they look how to fix it if posible.

 

Are you talking about the Russian thread that got flamed and was locked? Because Jason's recently response to a post seems to indicate that things are not so cut and dried as we might think. Am I wrong? I think the "if we have news" is a bit concerning. The guy wasn't bitching about it, just frustrated to see no mention to it, and then the response might contain some truth.

 

-------

QeIzuAp.jpg

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I also expected some news that they are working on it, since the visibility update was done almost four months ago and spotting is the bread and butter of this game. Yesterday I patrolled for two hours in a map with 54 players and basically did not see a soul. We were with the sun on our backs, past 4pm, and the contrast bug makes it virtually impossible to see nearby contacts, especially if they are a couple hundred yards above.

 

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22 minutes ago, SeaW0lf said:

Yesterday I patrolled for two hours in a map with 54 players and basically did not see a soul.

Multiplayer has always been this way. The missions are all designed with the targets too far apart which spreads players all over a huge map. So it’s an effect of poor mission design, if anything the longer visibility range should have helped. 54 players isn’t enough for a game when all the missions are designed for 84 or more like 184. For practice seeing other aircraft it’s better to play SP where there actually are other aircraft to see. 

4 hours ago, Con said:

It Seems your the only one in this thread that has no problems in spotting .

I have never felt I had trouble spotting in any of these sims. Honestly I could not tell the difference between pre and post patch (Alternate Vis off) unless maybe I put both versions of the game on monitors in front of me. I have noted and reported an actual bug but otherwise I can’t say. If that bug existed before the patch I couldn’t say either. 

Edited by SharpeXB

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1 hour ago, SeaW0lf said:

 

Are you talking about the Russian thread that got flamed and was locked? Because Jason's recently response to a post seems to indicate that things are not so cut and dried as we might think. Am I wrong? I think the "if we have news" is a bit concerning. The guy wasn't bitching about it, just frustrated to see no mention to it, and then the response might contain some truth.

 

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QeIzuAp.jpg

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I also expected some news that they are working on it, since the visibility update was done almost four months ago and spotting is the bread and butter of this game. Yesterday I patrolled for two hours in a map with 54 players and basically did not see a soul. We were with the sun on our backs, past 4pm, and the contrast bug makes it virtually impossible to see nearby contacts, especially if they are a couple hundred yards above.

 

 

Yes i read what was said on russian forum by dev who have task to fix this problem, and i see no conflicting info with it from post you quoted, it was hollidays i dont expect anything was done so what new thing they can then post if no time to work on it . They said its not quick fix.

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Here's one example. See if you can find the airplane in this picture.

776291242_IconsOFF.thumb.jpg.1024fc4f488fa5476ca1d71c5308b365.jpg

 

Click the spoiler to see where it actually is with the distance.

Spoiler

 

2.38km is only 1.3nm for reference.

695104028_IconsON.thumb.jpg.382731e4da84da76aa0ccc8b3c05ae4e.jpg

 

 

Edited by SYN_Requiem
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28 minutes ago, SYN_Requiem said:

Here's one example. See if you can find the airplane in this picture.

776291242_IconsOFF.thumb.jpg.1024fc4f488fa5476ca1d71c5308b365.jpg

 

Wow, not even rendered, and that's with me zooming in on the image. I can see the shape of the clouds behind where the 109 is supposed to be, but not the aircraft...  A Bf-109 with a wingspan of ~9.85m at a distance of 2.38km has an angular size of about 0.237 degrees. For reference: A 24" 1920x1080p monitor (since the picture provided is 1920x1080) has a pixel pitch of around 0.27mm. An observer sitting 0.5m away from said monitor sees each pixel with an angular size of 0.03 degrees, so there should be approximately 8 pixels showing the wingspan of the Bf-109. Even for a worse profile, the height of the 109 should be approximately 1 pixel at this distance. Even a 737 flying at an altitude of over 10,000m is fairly easy to spot and that has an angular size of 0.19 degrees, smaller than what this 109 could be perceived as. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, SYN_Requiem said:

Here's one example. See if you can find the airplane in this picture.

776291242_IconsOFF.thumb.jpg.1024fc4f488fa5476ca1d71c5308b365.jpg

 

Click the spoiler to see where it actually is with the distance.

  Hide contents

 

2.38km is only 1.3nm for reference.

695104028_IconsON.thumb.jpg.382731e4da84da76aa0ccc8b3c05ae4e.jpg

 

 

This is the main problem imo, contacts not rendering or being very small pixels on the screen when they are close range.

I've been able to spot contacts at long ranges but as soon as they close in they either render out or become so small that they are impossible to see anyways.

 

Close range rendering definitely needs some adjustment, hopefully they can do it without causing any problems to long range spotting.

Edited by Legioneod
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2 hours ago, SYN_Requiem said:

Here's one example. See if you can find the airplane in this picture.

776291242_IconsOFF.thumb.jpg.1024fc4f488fa5476ca1d71c5308b365.jpg

 

Click the spoiler to see where it actually is with the distance.

  Hide contents

 

2.38km is only 1.3nm for reference.

695104028_IconsON.thumb.jpg.382731e4da84da76aa0ccc8b3c05ae4e.jpg

 

 

I have to wonder if dialing back the scaling between alternate visibility and normal visibility has resulted in the strange 'under-rendering' for lack of a better term, in short range contacts. 
 

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3 hours ago, SeaW0lf said:

 

Are you talking about the Russian thread that got flamed and was locked? Because Jason's recently response to a post seems to indicate that things are not so cut and dried as we might think. Am I wrong? I think the "if we have news" is a bit concerning. The guy wasn't bitching about it, just frustrated to see no mention to it, and then the response might contain some truth.

 

-------

QeIzuAp.jpg

-------

 

 

 

I also expected some news that they are working on it, since the visibility update was done almost four months ago and spotting is the bread and butter of this game. Yesterday I patrolled for two hours in a map with 54 players and basically did not see a soul. We were with the sun on our backs, past 4pm, and the contrast bug makes it virtually impossible to see nearby contacts, especially if they are a couple hundred yards above.

 

There's really nothing incompatible about the statements Petrovich made in the Russian thread and the statement Jason is making here. Even in that thread, it ended with essentially the same statement,"We know you're having issues, We'll look into it and it will take some time, no promises one way or another". 

 

 

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Here are a few examples (Ultra settings, 4AA, expert visibility) of how limited is my visibility at the Arras map in some situations that correspond to a big portion of our spatial perception. This is why planes comes from nowhere, and you have to add the fact that in-flight we are not just analyzing a screen as we are doing now, but managing all the aspects of combat and sometimes looking at the wrong direction, then you can discount a couple seconds as reflex, which will reduce these distances at least by a few hundred yards, which is already too close to call.

 

Best viewed in 1440p for me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

These angles, horizontal and lateral passes at the same level or below the target (when you are above you are likely to see nothing against the ground) accounts for a big portion of our spatial perception*. In other words, I’m personally flying blind most of the time. We can count with flak, but what’s the point then? Better to enables icons, which then it is the same to say that we can’t play missions online.

 

*For who read about my experience spotting small choppers (Robinsons 44 for example) in Rio de Janeiro, yesterday I went for a even further vantage point (near the Sugar Loaf, noon, sky partially clouded), and I was spotting choppers and paragliders from 3.5km to 5.5km with no problems over the Christ the Redeemer. In fact the paragliders have a very thin profile, but I could see the half moon shape beyond 5km (they wore past the statue, from 4km to 5.5km away). when they banked, those things looked big in my field of view. Choppers also have a very clear signature against the blue sky, even past 5km. against the clouds they blend more over the dark patches due to lighting, but even then they were perfectly visible. I had no problems going from paragliders to choppers alternately without missing them. Mind you, this from an average distance of 4.5km.

Edited by SeaW0lf

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9 minutes ago, SeaW0lf said:

Better to enables icons, which then it is the same to say that we can’t play missions online.

 

To aid spotting, it would be far better just to enable padlock.

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12 minutes ago, Cynic_Al said:

To aid spotting, it would be far better just to enable padlock.

 

But that, or even icons, would be the death of multiplayer missions, or even multiplayer (as if we haven't enough problems already).

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2 minutes ago, SeaW0lf said:

 

But that, or even icons, would be the death of multiplayer missions, or even multiplayer (as if we haven't enough problems already).

 

Could we have a rationale for that?

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42 minutes ago, Cynic_Al said:

 

Could we have a rationale for that?

 

Isn't padlock to lock your view onto enemies? Why fly in [full] missions if we can't devise tactics and positioning and people bounce you from nowhere? It reduces the game to furball servers in small areas, when the visibility problem still exists, but it affects less the players since everything is already compacted into a small area of the map.

Edited by SeaW0lf

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Well spoting and stuttering online in high end systems is what stoped me to support the game. I already have my favorites planes so until they fix the engine, clouds, spoting and optimize the game I would not buy any new module.

Edited by SJ_Butcher

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27 minutes ago, SeaW0lf said:

 

Inst’ padlock to lock your view onto enemies? Why fly in [full] missions if we can't devise tactics and positioning and people bounce you from nowhere?

 

You have demonstrated a spotting issue with the game.  Padlock is only assistive at the ranges in which the spotting problem exists.  Any further and it doesn't work, any nearer and it would be a hindrance.  Under those circumstances I cannot spot how it's availability would compromise gameplay.

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6 minutes ago, Cynic_Al said:

You have demonstrated a spotting issue with the game.  Padlock is only assistive at the ranges in which the spotting problem exists.  Any further and it doesn't work, any nearer and it would be a hindrance.  Under those circumstances I cannot spot how it's availability would compromise gameplay.

 

Did know that, but it is an atmosphere killer anyways and not always you are supposed to see the enemy, especially on your blind sides. It would not stick in full real missions and it would not solve the cases when we are supposed to see well beyond 1.5/2km (which is a common thing in real life) and we can't.

 

They either fix or don't. We can't start bringing arcade settings to full real missions just because spotting is broken. There is no point in that.

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On 1/18/2020 at 11:52 AM, SharpeXB said:

I can see and ID other aircraft very well in 4K. It is not difficult at all, it’s very nice. 

You are right .

The big question is .

We are 10 friends, 6 of us loved flying red, 4 loved flying blue.

For two years most of us play online in servers.
Not everyone had an Nvidia 2080 to play 4K, but everyone was always flying on online servers. at least 2560 × 1440 for a long time.

Many bought better video cards and larger monitors 27 inches  , 32  monitors and screens 4K 40 inches, 43 inches and 50 inches .

The video card limited them to play 2560 × 1440. 

All of us / them ...  after a long time left the flight.

And they don't fly anymore. 

There is a problem in Spotting.  

Well it's just a game only  for Nvidia 2080 in 4K. 

I do not know.

But all of us who couldn't play 4K, we don't play anymore . 

You must be proud to be able to play 4K, it belongs to an elite in spotting, Whitouts preoblems.

Stay  yourself proud !  

2560 × 1440 is Shit !

Be proud ! 

None of us fly anymore.
Or buy anything else. 

Only 10 less pilots flying online.

Off topic . My great uncle loves to fly a P51 in South America, many years ago.

Panzer nickname  means  nothing.

But I tell the truth, Sportting it broke

 

 
 
 
 

 

 

Edited by [LAS]URU-Panzer

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1 hour ago, [LAS]URU-Panzer said:

 

The video card limited them to play 2560 × 1440. 

It’s better to run the native resolution of your monitor rather than upscale. It will look sharper. Even 1440p upscaled to 2160p looks noticeably soft but the same 1440 signal on a 1440 screen will look really nice. 

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So for the doubters out there: I thought to myself... If I go on Youtube and watch a [edited] ton of PVP videos, what are the chances I can find this bug?

I didn't think I would find it...

This was literally the first video I watched. 

Slow this down and watch it from the time stamp that I have linked.  Watch that chase from 7:22 to 7:35. 
 


... Maybe I am crazy... I don't think so though. 

Der Sheriff here is one of the more prominent and arguably skilled pvp players in the sky at the moment. 

A person could say that Der Sheriff also "Does not have problems spotting targets".  That however is not mutually exclusive from the existence of the bug. 

 

On 1/20/2020 at 3:40 PM, SharpeXB said:

I have never felt I had trouble spotting in any of these sims. Honestly I could not tell the difference between pre and post patch (Alternate Vis off) unless maybe I put both versions of the game on monitors in front of me. I have noted and reported an actual bug but otherwise I can’t say. If that bug existed before the patch I couldn’t say either. 



So Sharpe... Do you see that plane snapping in and out of render or is your eyesight better then mine?

I hope you don't mind me calling you out specifically.. It's just that it seems to me some people in this thread are bringing... At least what we believe to be valid... issues to the table. It seems by your tone and responses that you're arguing there is no real issue. Is it just us? 

Edited by SYN_Haashashin
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7 hours ago, Petrik_Drosik said:

So Sharpe... Do you see that plane snapping in and out of render or is your eyesight better then mine?

I hope you don't mind me calling you out specifically.. It's just that it seems to me some people in this thread are bringing... At least what we believe to be valid... issues to the table. It seems by your tone and responses that you're arguing there is no real issue. Is it just us? 

I see it in the video. But in actual gameplay I can’t say I’ve ever seen a plane vanish with the zoom level at this range. It’s hard to say from YouTube because the video appears quite blurry to me either through compression or upscaling to my monitor which is 2160p.

I have noticed and reported a bug where the aluminum reflections or layer in the skin will vanish with zoom level but in that case the plane is still visible. 
 

It’s worth noting Jason’s recent statement that visibility within 10km has not changed pre and post patch, the changes were to 10km+

Myself I don’t notice any difference spotting within that range either. Aside from that bug. 

Edited by SharpeXB

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7 hours ago, Petrik_Drosik said:

 



Do you see that plane snapping in and out of render or is your eyesight better then mine?
 

I'm pretty certain it's not snapping in and out of render, you can see subtle pixel changes when Sherriff has zoomed, out where the plane is. It's just YouTube compression crushing the fine detail. 

But I can see how you thought that.

 

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7 minutes ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

I'm pretty certain it's not snapping in and out of render, you can see subtle pixel changes when Sherriff has zoomed, out where the plane is. It's just YouTube compression crushing the fine detail. 

But I can see how you thought that.

 

 

I think you are wrong. YouTube does not work that way unless you are using the wrong format, but Sheriff’s video seems fine to me. All my videos regarding these bugs portray what I see in-game with a very small margin of error, and when contacts disappear is because they do disappear. Just small 'pixels', as in 'pixel hunting', get affected by loss of quality, not aircraft profiles like the ones we are seeing [not seeing by the way].

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Hey at least I confirmed they be trolling 😛

 

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9 hours ago, Petrik_Drosik said:

  Watch that chase from 7:22 to 7:35. 

 

 

Er.....didn't see any problem between 7.22 and 7.35?:scratch_one-s_head:

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9 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

 

Er.....didn't see any problem between 7.22 and 7.35?:scratch_one-s_head:


*Shrugs* You can lead a horse to water. Can't make it drink. 

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3 hours ago, SeaW0lf said:

 

I think you are wrong. YouTube does not work that way unless you are using the wrong format, but Sheriff’s video seems fine to me. All my videos regarding these bugs portray what I see in-game with a very small margin of error, and when contacts disappear is because they do disappear. Just small 'pixels', as in 'pixel hunting', get affected by loss of quality, not aircraft profiles like the ones we are seeing [not seeing by the way].

image.thumb.png.f0c286d35071022bad22909d43573883.png I screenshotted a frame where you can see the contact when Sheriff has fully zoomed out. Not ideal I know, screenshots of YouTube videos of flight records are going to miss stuff. But trust me, it's there. It's just a single pixel but it's definitely there.

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5 minutes ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

image.thumb.png.f0c286d35071022bad22909d43573883.png I screenshotted a frame where you can see the contact when Sheriff has fully zoomed out. Not ideal I know, screenshots of YouTube videos of flight records are going to miss stuff. But trust me, it's there. It's just a single pixel but it's definitely there.

 

You took a print when he was zoomed in. That's not the problem. The plane had just merged with the terrain (another problem).

 

Then I think you did not quite get it. The problem is when he zooms out and the plane just vanishes from the screen. From 7:22 to 7:30 the contact disappears three times when he zooms out. 

 

Taking it frame by frame, here's what happens. So you can see that this is not a "YouTube" problem, but a game problem.

 

X3J6H5l.jpg

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BTW Barnacle you are proving my point. All of our points. That plane at that range should not be 1 pixel. The forced perspective threshold in these situations is under rendering the object. 

Remember we are dealing with 2d images. So distance is a factor of size in comparison to your point of perspective. 

I made some crude examples of this. I did it in crayon so it might be easier for everyone to grasp. 

1.jpg

2.jpg.43f7479c4c35b5af1cf61941507d81ba.jpg

Untitled.jpg.4596f6967e058c0fb17dc9c01c3aebbc.jpg

4.png.1237db315ebf3ffb5ee39d597e90d71a.png

So the smaller an object gets... The father away it appears. 

We are contending that there is a very momentary threshold around... What are we saying? 1k to 2k area? Where planes are at the wrong ratio of size on the screen as compared to our FOV. 

I admit I don't understand the spotting but I would guess this is the moment the game is switching from "at distance render" to "Engagment render" And there is something off about that switch. ( I am making those terms up). 

AND If you happen to live in that grey area between the two ranges (around 1.7k) Say you are chasing a contact at about the same speed.  The object you are tracking will shift in and out depending on your FOV. 

You can see this in the Der Sheriff Video. 

He is trying to get closer to the contact, the contact is trying to create distance. There is a moment around 7:22-7:26 that they are stuck in this range I am talking about. THEN because the target starts to climb and Sheriff is still accelerating, the engagement distance becomes close enough that the object is properly rendered. This starts to happen as the contact climbs towards the horizon. BTW that is where Barnacle cherry picked his screen shot. The moment that Sheriff begins to close on the target and the target returns to proper size. 

IF Sheriff would have been traveling much faster.. It is likely this bug would not have been noticed as that change in engagement distance happened so quickly. 

The fact that they were going at about the same speed when they hit that exact range is what caused the bug to stand out. 

Does that make sense?

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You guys completely disregard how youtube compression (or video compression in general) works. That plane could have been removed by the lossy video codec of youtube.

While Lods are or were screwed in this game, youtube videos are the wrong source to prove or show the problem. You will even mislead devs.

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All my bug reports have tracks and the behavior is the same. From what I see, for YouTube to 'eat' a plane, it has to be at the near pixel level. You do lose some quality, but you can very well display these behaviors in video.

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21 minutes ago, DerSheriff said:

That plane could have been removed by the lossy video codec of youtube.

That does not hold up against other artifacts and items on the screen. If fine detail is lost in part of the image it is lost over the entire image. 

Unless of course you are claiming that certain assets are being rendered cleaner then others (like the plane) which is causing it to drop out faster then other images on screen when effected by quality loss.... If that is in fact the case... It proves our point further as we are claiming the plane is not being properly rendered at that distance. 
 

22 minutes ago, DerSheriff said:

While Lods are or were screwed in this game, youtube videos are the wrong source to prove or show the problem

You are correct if this was our only evidence. It is not.

This thread has an overwhelming amount of varied examples and evidence. This is just a single perspective on the potential problem. Adding or taking this piece away changes nothing.

22 minutes ago, DerSheriff said:

You will even mislead devs.

Unlikely. No Dev is reading my bullshit and making serious decisions based on my bad understanding of how things are rendered. 

This is not even the correct place to discuss with Devs about this problem. That type of thing belongs in proper bug reporting. It has already been done by smarter players then me. That also was said earlier in this thread. If you take the time to read back on the first page that would be clear. 

The question was asked IF this type of issue was addressed in the dev blog. 

It has since devolved in to a stupid argument about whether part of the player base is lying/complaining/having mass hallucinations about a bug. 

The above examples are not for the Devs. They are for players who are arguing that we are all suffering mass delusions and should keep our mouths shut. 
 

Here is the jist of how this has gone:

Player A: I think I might be experiencing a bug where planes disappear. It is effecting my immersion and enjoyment.
Player B: No you aren't cause I'm not. 

If this keeps up this thread will be locked because there is no useful discourse going on. 

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