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hnbdgr

Spotting improvements in the roadmap?

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Hi Guys,

 

I know variations of the spotting topic have been posted endlessly but just wanted to know if there's any word from the devs as far as looking at it in the future? Anything in the roadmap?

 

I know some people find the current system (not the alternative one) to be 'realistic' but truth is many people have immense trouble locating aircraft at the 0-2km range. The culprit imo is how the model changes contrast when it's closer vs when it's further. As soon as it comes within a certain range the LOD changes and the aircraft can effectively be invisible against some backgrounds even if in RL the contrast would be still apparent. I find it incredibly frustrating.

 

Thanks,

 

Badger

 

 

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2 hours ago, hnbdgr said:

Hi Guys,

 

I know variations of the spotting topic have been posted endlessly but just wanted to know if there's any word from the devs as far as looking at it in the future? Anything in the roadmap?

 

I know some people find the current system (not the alternative one) to be 'realistic' but truth is many people have immense trouble locating aircraft at the 0-2km range. The culprit imo is how the model changes contrast when it's closer vs when it's further. As soon as it comes within a certain range the LOD changes and the aircraft can effectively be invisible against some backgrounds even if in RL the contrast would be still apparent. I find it incredibly frustrating.

 

Thanks,

 

Badger

 

 

A while back there was a fairly wide ranging thread in the Russian forums where AnPetrovich requested feedback and bug reports, and some indication that work will be done this year to try and improve things. But quick changes were explicitly not promised.

From what I could see (through the magic of Google Translate) most of the issues that get raised here were raised there -including actual bugs and dissatisfaction with the system as it stands. Also worth noting that the users over there are nearly as feral as the ones over here, and the thread was eventually locked because of it.

So its likely that we will see at least some work on visibility in the near future. How long it may take is another story.

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That's some good news then I guess! thank for letting me know

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On 1/10/2020 at 8:25 AM, RedKestrel said:


So its likely that we will see at least some work on visibility in the near future. How long it may take is another story.

 

 

I hope it's small adjustments at a time instead of trying to dump it all at once in 1 patch.  The visibility update overall was a major step forward.  It just needs fine tuning. 

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There is also a problem where allied (uk/usa) planes shine like a christmas tree when looking from above....camo skins doesn't help.

In MP you can easily distuingish allied from the axis on great distances.

Axis planes you can barely see due to rendering perfectly and blending with the ground, while allies will render in white pixels making them easy target.

Changing to dark camo skins doesn't help they still render like nav light.

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38 minutes ago, So_ein_Feuerball said:

Apparently the devs are working on switching to deferred rendering, so maybe that´ll bring spotting improvements.

 

Huh, I have no idea what that means.  Was there an announcement I missed? Sorry, I am not well-versed in rendering tech so I don't know what the implications are there.

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42 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

Huh, I have no idea what that means.  Was there an announcement I missed? Sorry, I am not well-versed in rendering tech so I don't know what the implications are there.

 

Shamrockonefive covers the change in his Stormbirds blog.

Edited by JimTM
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4 hours ago, EAF_Ribbon said:

There is also a problem where allied (uk/usa) planes shine like a christmas tree when looking from above....camo skins doesn't help.

In MP you can easily distuingish allied from the axis on great distances.

Axis planes you can barely see due to rendering perfectly and blending with the ground, while allies will render in white pixels making them easy target.

Changing to dark camo skins doesn't help they still render like nav light.

 

This!

 

It is shocking that this has been allowed to continue for so long.  I could be wrong, but surely this one is an easy fix as I imagine it is just a mistake with the coding for the aircraft LOD's.  Surely all camouflaged aircraft should have the same LOD code no matter what side they are on.  Either all the camouflaged aircraft should shine or they all should not, apart from metallic finish.  I looks like metallic finish LOD's have mistakenly been given to camouflaged Allied aircraft :(

 

Flying camouflaged Allied aircraft is very uncomfortable, to say the least, at the moment, knowing that they shine out white from long distances in a way LW aircraft do not!

 

Please dev's, it would be greatly appreciated if you could investigate this issue.  Thank you in anticipation.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman 

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On 1/10/2020 at 5:48 AM, hnbdgr said:

Hi Guys,

 

I know variations of the spotting topic have been posted endlessly but just wanted to know if there's any word from the devs as far as looking at it in the future? Anything in the roadmap?

 

I know some people find the current system (not the alternative one) to be 'realistic' but truth is many people have immense trouble locating aircraft at the 0-2km range. The culprit imo is how the model changes contrast when it's closer vs when it's further. As soon as it comes within a certain range the LOD changes and the aircraft can effectively be invisible against some backgrounds even if in RL the contrast would be still apparent. I find it incredibly frustrating.

 

Thanks,

 

Badger

 

 

 

I'm hoping to see some changes here too. I've started writing about it but I haven't finished yet because I'm trying to approach this from a big picture perspective and I'm not done thinking or writing.

 

My take on spotting is this. The new enhanced spotting system that most multiplayer servers are not using is the superior spotting mechanic for the sim that has a few problems but that is immensely better than the old method that most servers are still using. A few players seem to think that "easy spotting" is too easy but frankly I think that normal/original/old spotting is not very good at all. I've been in IL-2 multiplayer scenarios where we're criss-crossing paths with someone trying to link up and just not being able to see each other. I've also been bounced or gotten into dogfights with aircraft that are only visible in a tangible way at narrow FOV and as soon as you zoom out they become invisible or nearly invisible.

 

That was just my opinion but I've heard from others and I know it's a major issue for them too. The point was driven home for me when a couple of real world pilots weighed in with similar impressions.

 

I also know that this isn't an easy issue issue for the devs to work out and I'm sure a happy medium somewhere can be found.

 

7 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

Huh, I have no idea what that means.  Was there an announcement I missed? Sorry, I am not well-versed in rendering tech so I don't know what the implications are there.

 

Deferred rendering is an alternate system for doing more realistic multi source lighting calculations that are done in multiple passes by the GPU. DCS World went to deferred rendering with their 2.0 alpha and current 2.5 version and that proved to be a major leap forward for the series visually. I'm sure it can do the same for IL-2. It provides the basis for some very impressive lighting improvements that also have performance benefits.

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On 1/13/2020 at 9:39 PM, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

I'm hoping to see some changes here too. I've started writing about it but I haven't finished yet because I'm trying to approach this from a big picture perspective and I'm not done thinking or writing.

 

My take on spotting is this. The new enhanced spotting system that most multiplayer servers are not using is the superior spotting mechanic for the sim that has a few problems but that is immensely better than the old method that most servers are still using. A few players seem to think that "easy spotting" is too easy but frankly I think that normal/original/old spotting is not very good at all. I've been in IL-2 multiplayer scenarios where we're criss-crossing paths with someone trying to link up and just not being able to see each other. I've also been bounced or gotten into dogfights with aircraft that are only visible in a tangible way at narrow FOV and as soon as you zoom out they become invisible or nearly invisible.

 

That was just my opinion but I've heard from others and I know it's a major issue for them too. The point was driven home for me when a couple of real world pilots weighed in with similar impressions.

 

I also know that this isn't an easy issue issue for the devs to work out and I'm sure a happy medium somewhere can be found.

 

 

Deferred rendering is an alternate system for doing more realistic multi source lighting calculations that are done in multiple passes by the GPU. DCS World went to deferred rendering with their 2.0 alpha and current 2.5 version and that proved to be a major leap forward for the series visually. I'm sure it can do the same for IL-2. It provides the basis for some very impressive lighting improvements that also have performance benefits.

 

I am absolutely with you in the premise that there are serious visibility issues with the sim as it stands. I think it's important to define terms and problems though in order to arrive at a realistic solution that simultaneously solves the current problem. 

 

We have two systems currently in game as described by devs. The first system, and the one that the majority of servers are using, is the so-called "expert visibility system". It was created with the idea that it would realistically render planes out to extreme ranges while still maintaining a linear and relatively realistic contact size at extreme ranges. (IE. you can still spot planes out to 20-30km if conditions are right (sun behind you, glinting off their plane) but they will be a very small spec at these ranges)

 

The second system called the "alternate visibility setting" was described as identical in every way except for the fact that it applied a scaler mechaninsm that increased plane size at longer distances so to make distant contacts easier to spot. This system allowed planes at close range to mirror the size and visibility of the "expert visibility" system at close range but only at further ranges it inflated them. 

 

The real issue that I think we can all agree on is that plane spotting at near range (lets say under 2km) is very bad and very often you miss contacts that are right beside you based on how they render and assume lighting/contrast etc. Further, there seems to be an actual documented bug where planes are simply invisible to begin with until they open fire.

 

These issues exist identically in both visibility system types (they should since both systems operate exactly the same at these ranges). I have experienced this to be the case. Even initially with the alternate setting, while I would spot planes easily at absurd ranges; as they grew near to me, I would often lose them and they would 'appear to disappear.' 

 

So, while the alternate visibility system inflates planes and makes it possible to easily see planes at ranges that you never would in real life. (not easily anyhow) It does not fix the root problem, which is how planes are displayed at close range. Further, because it allows you to 'find action' across a map at ranges you should never be able to see, it actually ruins any sort of search/sneak game-play and only serves to make things worse.  

 

I actually think the "expert view" does a fantastic and realistic job of rendering planes and spotting at all ranges except for close range. What I hope happens and I understand to be a work in progress...is simply fixing and improving spotting at near range only as well as fixing the invisibility bug.

Edited by SCG_Wulfe
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58 minutes ago, SCG_Wulfe said:

 

I am absolutely with you in the premise that there are serious visibility issues with the sim as it stands. I think it's important to define terms and problems though in order to arrive at a realistic solution that simultaneously solves the current problem. 

 

We have two systems currently in game as described by devs. The first system, and the one that the majority of servers are using, is the so-called "expert visibility system". It was created with the idea that it would realistically render planes out to extreme ranges while still maintaining a linear and relatively realistic contact size at extreme ranges. (IE. you can still spot planes out to 20-30km if conditions are right (sun behind you, glinting off their plane) but they will be a very small spec at these ranges)

 

The second system called the "alternative visibility setting" was described as identical in every way except for the fact that it applied a scaler mechaninsm that increased plane size at longer distances so to make distant contacts easier to spot. This system allowed planes at close range to mirror the size and visibility of the "expert visibility" system at close range but only at further ranges it inflated them. 

 

The real issue that I think we can all agree on is that plane spotting at near range (lets say under 2km) is very bad and very often you miss contacts that are right beside you based on how they render and assume lighting/contrast etc. Further, there seems to be an actual documented bug where planes are simply invisible to begin with until they open fire.

 

These issues exist identically in both visibility system types (they should since both systems operate exactly the same at these ranges). I have experienced this to be the case. Even initially with the alternate setting, while I would spot planes easily at absurd ranges; as they grew near to me, I would often lose them and they would 'appear to disappear.' 

 

So, while the alternate visibility system inflates planes and makes it possible to easily see planes at ranges that you never would in real life. (not easily anyhow) It does not fix the root problem, which is how planes are displayed at close range. Further, because it allows you to 'find action' across a map at ranges you should never be able to see, it actually ruins any sort of search/sneak game-play and only serves to make things worse.  

 

I actually think the "expert view" does a fantastic and realistic job of rendering planes and spotting at all ranges except for close range. What I hope happens and I understand to be a work in progress...is simply fixing and improving spotting at near range only as well as fixing the invisibility bug.

100% agreed. I think a lot of people think the alt vis/normal vis systems are completely different, but they're not. Any improvements to rendering, contrast, and reflections essentially help with both systems. I, like you, have seen all the visibility bugs in both systems: disappearing planes, poor contrast, contrast changing with zoom, etc. ...normal visibility just get hit with more reports for things like that since it is the one used on most MP servers and its the default for the 'expert' settings.

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On 1/14/2020 at 7:45 PM, SCG_Wulfe said:
Quote

 

I am absolutely with you in the premise that there are serious visibility issues with the sim as it stands. I think it's important to define terms and problems though in order to arrive at a realistic solution that simultaneously solves the current problem. 

 

We have two systems currently in game as described by devs. The first system, and the one that the majority of servers are using, is the so-called "expert visibility system". It was created with the idea that it would realistically render planes out to extreme ranges while still maintaining a linear and relatively realistic contact size at extreme ranges. (IE. you can still spot planes out to 20-30km if conditions are right (sun behind you, glinting off their plane) but they will be a very small spec at these ranges)

 

The second system called the "alternate visibility setting" was described as identical in every way except for the fact that it applied a scaler mechaninsm that increased plane size at longer distances so to make distant contacts easier to spot. This system allowed planes at close range to mirror the size and visibility of the "expert visibility" system at close range but only at further ranges it inflated them. 

 

The real issue that I think we can all agree on is that plane spotting at near range (lets say under 2km) is very bad and very often you miss contacts that are right beside you based on how they render and assume lighting/contrast etc. Further, there seems to be an actual documented bug where planes are simply invisible to begin with until they open fire.

 

These issues exist identically in both visibility system types (they should since both systems operate exactly the same at these ranges). I have experienced this to be the case. Even initially with the alternate setting, while I would spot planes easily at absurd ranges; as they grew near to me, I would often lose them and they would 'appear to disappear.' 

 

So, while the alternate visibility system inflates planes and makes it possible to easily see planes at ranges that you never would in real life. (not easily anyhow) It does not fix the root problem, which is how planes are displayed at close range. Further, because it allows you to 'find action' across a map at ranges you should never be able to see, it actually ruins any sort of search/sneak game-play and only serves to make things worse.  

 

I actually think the "expert view" does a fantastic and realistic job of rendering planes and spotting at all ranges except for close range. What I hope happens and I understand to be a work in progress...is simply fixing and improving spotting at near range only as well as fixing the invisibility bug.

 

 

 

What he said!

 

Edited by =FEW=unicus

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On 1/14/2020 at 3:45 PM, SCG_Wulfe said:

I am absolutely with you in the premise that there are serious visibility issues with the sim as it stands. 

 

Yes.

 

Quote

 

The real issue that I think we can all agree on is that plane spotting at near range (lets say under 2km) is very bad

 

 

I would say 3/4km. I have been observing choppers (small ones in general, like Robinsons 44 and slim executive ones) making tours in a central spot in Rio de Janeiro (Christ the Redeemer) and until 2.5km they look big, and I mean big. No problems to spotting them at 3/4km. This from 5pm to sunset and 500m to 1000m above my vantage point on the darkest side of the sky (where the sun rises). In fact the sky is pretty clear at sunset, when here it looks more like we are above the atmosphere in a space shuttle (very dark).

 

Quote

and very often you miss contacts that are right beside you based on how they render and assume lighting/contrast etc. Further, there seems to be an actual documented bug where planes are simply invisible to begin with until they open fire.

 

I disagree on that. Lighting and contrast do play a huge part in it, and there is a report bug about it, but I also think that contacts are just sub-dimensioned. From the videos I made with my cell phone, what happens is: on my screen, the choppers have half the size or less of the contacts I see in real life. It seems to happen the same with Il-2. A contact at 2km should look big, not a pixel that is virtually unspottable while in combat. So to me it is not just how they are rendered and how there is no contrast to it. Their size also appears to be sub-dimensioned, which then contradicts, in my opinion, that the scale is right for 2d monitors.

 

For example, I just fired the game to get this screenshot. A plane at 1.3km would look like a whale in my field of view. I'm not sure how they got that small in my screen, but they sure look to be some 3km away.

 

MyY38xG.jpg

 

-------

 

Quote

So, while the alternate visibility system inflates planes and makes it possible to easily see planes at ranges that you never would in real life. (not easily anyhow) It does not fix the root problem, which is how planes are displayed at close range. Further, because it allows you to 'find action' across a map at ranges you should never be able to see, it actually ruins any sort of search/sneak game-play and only serves to make things worse.  

 

This is not accurate either. Many of us, including some veteran Spad aces, experience contacts ballooning and shrinking while using zoom in servers with Alternate Visibility. So while you are zooming in on a plane, it will shrink and then balloon up (or vice versa) from 0 to 100% zoom. The result is that planes seem to teleport, thus making out spatial perception look like a Star Trek voyage with spaceships teleporting all around. There is no way to determine distances while using zoom. Plus, while planes shrink and reappear when you scan the sky, you don't know if they are the same or just another plane that came out. It is just unplayable, broken to me, and J5 left it enable for a week for us to compare and several people where complaining about this issue and praying for the 'expert visibility' to come back. I also understand that the ordinary fella won't notice these things and think it is that way because they don’t know any better, but especially who flies in real life or who works with design, film making, etc, will notice these things right the way.

 

 

Quote

I actually think the "expert view" does a fantastic and realistic job of rendering planes and spotting at all ranges except for close range.

 

I disagree on this as well. I think contacts are sub-dimensioned. Like I said, when I watch the recordings I made of those choppers in my 2560X1080p screen, they look smaller than my perception of them in real life.

 

Before making these real life observations, I was on the bandwagon of 2km. Now I think it is more like 3/4km. Under that radius, we should have a pretty good visual of what goes round above the horizon, which is something nonexistent here. I have a video of a Bristol disappearing at 1.5km here in one of the bug reports. In real life, a contact at 1.5km is like a London bus floating around. And choppers don't have butterfly wings like a Bristol.

 

Then I think the notion that we shouldn't spot objects with ease is flawed. I know that people have different eye sights, but damn, I'm not young and my glasses are not slim! Also, someone here said that it is better to have spotting a bit off to the better than to the worse [impossible to get it 100% right], since we are not simulating a real life danger of getting killed. It is just a game. ROF has a much better spotting / rendering system and people were able to sneak a bounce with no problems as well.

 

And we did not even talk about spotting below the horizon line, which is another can of worms. So I do really hope that things change for better this year, and that the issue does not drag for years, because it does impact on game play big time and we came here to play after all.

Edited by SeaW0lf
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S! 

 

Spotting has always been the Achilles heel of BoX, since day one. RoF has it better in some ways. 

 

The most prominent issue seems to be the LOD transition causing problems. The shine on surfaces disappears abruptly after certain range turning the plane into a dark blob with less detail. This causes them to blend into the background thus practically invisible. Add to this the skin flicker aka chosen vs default skin alternating if looking away and then back. 

 

Yesterday I was engaging ships in MP. I could see them in the distance just fine, but when I zoomed in to maximum they vanished! A slight zoom out and they appeared again. Same applies to ground targets, you can not see them from a 1km distance unless you zoom in. 

 

Another thing affecting visibility is the strange smear/film/whatever on the cockpit glass. At certain lighting conditions it looks out right horrible, like a low resolution effect or banding. You see better if opening the cockpit than thru the glass. Also devs could remove the fingerprints, or whatever they are, on glass from all planes. Even back in WW2 the mechanics kept glass clean as seeing is crucial. And last, the scratches. Random lines drawn around the glazing, sigh. "The other game" makes this better and more like what I have seen during my career with planes, and counting. 

 

Current visibility/rendering just causes a lot of frustration and forces people to use 3rd party programs or other gimmicks to gain at least some visibility. I really hope devs sit down and take a hard look in the issue as it is very annoying, detracting from the otherwise rather enjoyable gaming experience. 

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1 minute ago, Ala13_UnopaUno_VR said:

Against all those problems, use VIRTUAL REALITY, sell your 2d monitor
 
 
 
 

Can you lend me some money? 🤣

I am sure the team will improve this down the road

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7 minutes ago, Ala13_UnopaUno_VR said:
against all those problems, use VIRTUAL REALITY, sell your 2d monitor

 

How does that fix anything? You are just porting the problem to another interface. The player base is huge, so that type of comment sounds strange to say the least, plus we have people that got a VR set and went back to a monitor for several reasons.

 

We just would like to see it fixed, that’s all. Be it for monitors, VR sets, whatever comes our way or that we like or can afford.

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50 minutes ago, SeaW0lf said:

 

¿Cómo soluciona eso algo? Simplemente está transfiriendo el problema a otra interfaz. La base de jugadores es enorme, por lo que ese tipo de comentario suena extraño, por decir lo menos, además tenemos personas que obtuvieron un equipo de realidad virtual y volvieron a un monitor por varias razones.

 

Solo nos gustaría verlo arreglado, eso es todo. Ya sea para monitores, sets de realidad virtual, lo que sea que se presente o que nos guste o podamos pagar.

 
 
Currently in VR, the visualization of contacts is very good, but it is true that they have to fix many things for monitor and vr the same

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3 hours ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

S! 

 

Spotting has always been the Achilles heel of BoX, since day one. RoF has it better in some ways. 

 

The most prominent issue seems to be the LOD transition causing problems. The shine on surfaces disappears abruptly after certain range turning the plane into a dark blob with less detail. This causes them to blend into the background thus practically invisible. Add to this the skin flicker aka chosen vs default skin alternating if looking away and then back. 

 

Yesterday I was engaging ships in MP. I could see them in the distance just fine, but when I zoomed in to maximum they vanished! A slight zoom out and they appeared again. Same applies to ground targets, you can not see them from a 1km distance unless you zoom in. 

 

Another thing affecting visibility is the strange smear/film/whatever on the cockpit glass. At certain lighting conditions it looks out right horrible, like a low resolution effect or banding. You see better if opening the cockpit than thru the glass. Also devs could remove the fingerprints, or whatever they are, on glass from all planes. Even back in WW2 the mechanics kept glass clean as seeing is crucial. And last, the scratches. Random lines drawn around the glazing, sigh. "The other game" makes this better and more like what I have seen during my career with planes, and counting. 

 

Current visibility/rendering just causes a lot of frustration and forces people to use 3rd party programs or other gimmicks to gain at least some visibility. I really hope devs sit down and take a hard look in the issue as it is very annoying, detracting from the otherwise rather enjoyable gaming experience. 

This^^^

Canopy glass filter when compared to open canopy view feels a bit too strong.

 

And yes, one of the main things ground crew does in preflight checks where VFR is crucial is cleaning the canopy glass.

Edited by EAF_Ribbon

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9 hours ago, SeaW0lf said:

 

Yes.

 

 

I would say 3/4km. I have been observing choppers (small ones in general, like Robinsons 44 and slim executive ones) making tours in a central spot in Rio de Janeiro (Christ the Redeemer) and until 2.5km they look big, and I mean big. No problems to spotting them at 3/4km. This from 5pm to sunset and 500m to 1000m above my vantage point on the darkest side of the sky (where the sun rises). In fact the sky is pretty clear at sunset, when here it looks more like we are above the atmosphere in a space shuttle (very dark).

 

 

I disagree on that. Lighting and contrast do play a huge part in it, and there is a report bug about it, but I also think that contacts are just sub-dimensioned. From the videos I made with my cell phone, what happens is: on my screen, the choppers have half the size or less of the contacts I see in real life. It seems to happen the same with Il-2. A contact at 2km should look big, not a pixel that is virtually unspottable while in combat. So to me it is not just how they are rendered and how there is no contrast to it. Their size also appears to be sub-dimensioned, which then contradicts, in my opinion, that the scale is right for 2d monitors.

 

For example, I just fired the game to get this screenshot. A plane at 1.3km would look like a whale in my field of view. I'm not sure how they got that small in my screen, but they sure look to be some 3km away.

 

 

-------

 

 

This is not accurate either. Many of us, including some veteran Spad aces, experience contacts ballooning and shrinking while using zoom in servers with Alternate Visibility. So while you are zooming in on a plane, it will shrink and then balloon up (or vice versa) from 0 to 100% zoom. The result is that planes seem to teleport, thus making out spatial perception look like a Star Trek voyage with spaceships teleporting all around. There is no way to determine distances while using zoom. Plus, while planes shrink and reappear when you scan the sky, you don't know if they are the same or just another plane that came out. It is just unplayable, broken to me, and J5 left it enable for a week for us to compare and several people where complaining about this issue and praying for the 'expert visibility' to come back. I also understand that the ordinary fella won't notice these things and think it is that way because they don’t know any better, but especially who flies in real life or who works with design, film making, etc, will notice these things right the way.

 

 

 

I disagree on this as well. I think contacts are sub-dimensioned. Like I said, when I watch the recordings I made of those choppers in my 2560X1080p screen, they look smaller than my perception of them in real life.

 

Before making these real life observations, I was on the bandwagon of 2km. Now I think it is more like 3/4km. Under that radius, we should have a pretty good visual of what goes round above the horizon, which is something nonexistent here. I have a video of a Bristol disappearing at 1.5km here in one of the bug reports. In real life, a contact at 1.5km is like a London bus floating around. And choppers don't have butterfly wings like a Bristol.

 

Then I think the notion that we shouldn't spot objects with ease is flawed. I know that people have different eye sights, but damn, I'm not young and my glasses are not slim! Also, someone here said that it is better to have spotting a bit off to the better than to the worse [impossible to get it 100% right], since we are not simulating a real life danger of getting killed. It is just a game. ROF has a much better spotting / rendering system and people were able to sneak a bounce with no problems as well.

 

And we did not even talk about spotting below the horizon line, which is another can of worms. So I do really hope that things change for better this year, and that the issue does not drag for years, because it does impact on game play big time and we came here to play after all.

 

 

Thank you for your well thought out and reasoned response. I'm willing to accept there are some issues in spotting even out to 3-4km. I think they are the same problems that affect spotting under 2km as well. That said, I'm going to have to agree to disagree about the ease of spotting planes at those ranges. My own real life experience  is that a fighter sized object at 3-4km away is a small object indeed and certainly even at 1.5km it's not like a "London bus floating around". 

 

I think your shrink and then balloon effect in alternate did not have anything to do with close contacts being sub-dimension-ed and had everything to do with a set point occurring where objects at range were over-dimension-ed.

 

This all said, I would be willing to live with an effect that increases object size very slightly at close ranges as well as improves contrast and the handling of surface lighting. Basically the exact opposite of what is done with the alternate visibility setting. I say this as a compromise with those that want object scaling as I really do not find it difficult to spot contacts until they are closer than 1-2km. This sort of effect would also still allow you to naturally gauge approx distance to contacts which is also utterly destroyed with the alternate vis setting. 

 

Anything that increases distant contact size (let's say contacts past 7km) above what we currently have with the expert visibility setting is a no-go and destroys game-play in my book. 

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Just now, SCG_Wulfe said:

My own real life experience  is that a fighter sized object at 3-4km away is a small object indeed and certainly even at 1.5km it's not like a "London bus floating around"

 

Figure of speech, but they do look surprisingly big.

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9 hours ago, Ala13_UnopaUno_VR said:

Against all those problems, use VIRTUAL REALITY, sell your 2d monitor
 

 

yeah, would have to disagree with you there..

 

In VR the spotting is a mess. I can barely spot the aircraft when it's in a turn, however if it's flying straight to/from me - forget about it. Especially the ones on my six... I simply can't see them until they are 100meters behind me... and shooting..

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6 hours ago, Count_de_Money said:

 

yeah, would have to disagree with you there..

 

In VR the spotting is a mess. I can barely spot the aircraft when it's in a turn, however if it's flying straight to/from me - forget about it. Especially the ones on my six... I simply can't see them until they are 100meters behind me... and shooting..

I think it depends on many things like VR headset and settings.

 

One thing I have found that has helped me in VR with spotting is to reset my Nvidia Graphics Options back to default.

 

I also did this for my headset resetting PiTool IPD and Vertical Offset settings back to default.

 

I found it helped a lot and my thinking is that the Devs are designing their software to the common baseline settings and sometimes, some of us, myself included - faff about with many options on out systems and end up making issues worse.

 

Then again, my headset has poor panel RGB matrix and also 1440p upscaling so I find it hard to discern aircraft at distance with it.  I hear call outs for enemy fighters at such and such position at x kms and I am like WTF?  Can't see it.  I usually follow a friendly into the fight or look for tracers / flack instead.  Bumping SS helps but one is limited by GPU hardware.

 

As for spotting behind at close range, I find if flying solo RTB, curve flying and constant checking helps there.  If there are bullets then forward the stick goes and then defensive to attack.

 

Further work on the render engine will improve things down the track as well.

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Anybody noted that silver polish aluminum skin of a real P-51 shine a lot of more in a sunny day, than we have in game??
these shine flashes can be seen from miles of distance, in a real airplane. ...and of course a lot of more than an aircraft with matt mimetic paint.

image.thumb.png.d00de0d61ad82555c930afaeaadab855.png

This pictures was screen capture from the folowing video of a real P-51 

Spoiler

aa
Noted the next video of  Me-262 and Fw-190 that they almost do not shine except for the canopy glass.

 

 

Edited by III/JG52_Otto_-I-
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13 hours ago, blitze said:

I think it depends on many things like VR headset and settings.

 

One thing I have found that has helped me in VR with spotting is to reset my Nvidia Graphics Options back to default.

 

I also did this for my headset resetting PiTool IPD and Vertical Offset settings back to default.

 

I found it helped a lot and my thinking is that the Devs are designing their software to the common baseline settings and sometimes, some of us, myself included - faff about with many options on out systems and end up making issues worse.

 

Then again, my headset has poor panel RGB matrix and also 1440p upscaling so I find it hard to discern aircraft at distance with it.  I hear call outs for enemy fighters at such and such position at x kms and I am like WTF?  Can't see it.  I usually follow a friendly into the fight or look for tracers / flack instead.  Bumping SS helps but one is limited by GPU hardware.

 

As for spotting behind at close range, I find if flying solo RTB, curve flying and constant checking helps there.  If there are bullets then forward the stick goes and then defensive to attack.

 

Further work on the render engine will improve things down the track as well.

 

It's not about being sneaked upon, @blitze.  The aircraft simply blends in too much.

 

Prior to this graphical patch (forgot the number) if I'm chasing someone, or just trying to follow them, i.e. the enemy is ahead of me at around 1km I could:

- take away my eyes from the target

- check my six for 3-5 seconds

- return to forward position

- easily find the target ahead of me

- continue chasing it

 

Now? I can't take away my eyes from the target even for 1 second. Because when I return to the general area where the plane should be I won't be able to find it period.

 

Talking about the target fixation here. And not because I want to, but because without it I lose the aircraft completely...

 

it shouldn't be that hard...

 

 

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2 hours ago, Count_de_Money said:

 

It's not about being sneaked upon, @blitze.  The aircraft simply blends in too much.

 

Prior to this graphical patch (forgot the number) if I'm chasing someone, or just trying to follow them, i.e. the enemy is ahead of me at around 1km I could:

- take away my eyes from the target

- check my six for 3-5 seconds

- return to forward position

- easily find the target ahead of me

- continue chasing it

 

Now? I can't take away my eyes from the target even for 1 second. Because when I return to the general area where the plane should be I won't be able to find it period.

 

Talking about the target fixation here. And not because I want to, but because without it I lose the aircraft completely...

 

it shouldn't be that hard...

 

 

 

Exactly, you have to keep your eyes on that little dot or you loose it.

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3 hours ago, Count_de_Money said:

 

It's not about being sneaked upon, @blitze.  The aircraft simply blends in too much.

 

Prior to this graphical patch (forgot the number) if I'm chasing someone, or just trying to follow them, i.e. the enemy is ahead of me at around 1km I could:

- take away my eyes from the target

- check my six for 3-5 seconds

- return to forward position

- easily find the target ahead of me

- continue chasing it

 

Now? I can't take away my eyes from the target even for 1 second. Because when I return to the general area where the plane should be I won't be able to find it period.

 

Talking about the target fixation here. And not because I want to, but because without it I lose the aircraft completely...

 

it shouldn't be that hard...

 

 

I've already made a large post about this issue in another thread so not repeating myself here, but along with what you say here is when an airplane either climbs above after an attack, or is already above you by only a few thousand feet, if that.... You totally lose them against the sky as they blend in which is absolutely crazy and should not happen. Spotting airplanes against the sky is incredibly easy in RL because there's nowhere for it to hide with plenty of contrast. In Il-2 once that airplane blends in with the sky above me I literally count about 10-15 seconds and start another break turn as even though I can't see them it's likely they're on their way back down.

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15 hours ago, III/JG52_Otto_-I- said:

Anybody noted that silver polish aluminum skin of a real P-51 shine a lot of more in a sunny day, than we have in game??
these shine flashes can be seen from miles of distance, in a real airplane. ...and of course a lot of more than an aircraft with matt mimetic paint.

image.thumb.png.d00de0d61ad82555c930afaeaadab855.png

This pictures was screen capture from the folowing video of a real P-51 

  Reveal hidden contents

aa
Noted the next video of  Me-262 and Fw-190 that they almost do not shine except for the canopy glass.

 

 


That one is polished while others have silver paint. The P-51 in game is depicted as having the silver paint over it, it doesn't shine like the P-38 and P-47. I don't know which one was used in higher quantity.

Some are polished for airshows, here is a pic of one silver painted and the other polished

unknown.png

 

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6 hours ago, Count_de_Money said:

Prior to this graphical patch (forgot the number) if I'm chasing someone, or just trying to follow them, i.e. the enemy is ahead of me at around 1km I could:

At 1km away you should not be having those issues.

 

Are you running Restored Nvidia Control Panel settings?

 

What are your in game graphics settings?

 

What is your monitor you are using and at what Resolution?

 

Actually, all that are having this visibility issue should assemble these details so that info can be examined and the issue rectified. 

Edited by blitze
a brain fart

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7 hours ago, Count_de_Money said:

 

It's not about being sneaked upon, @blitze.  The aircraft simply blends in too much.

 

Prior to this graphical patch (forgot the number) if I'm chasing someone, or just trying to follow them, i.e. the enemy is ahead of me at around 1km I could:

- take away my eyes from the target

- check my six for 3-5 seconds

- return to forward position

- easily find the target ahead of me

- continue chasing it

 

Now? I can't take away my eyes from the target even for 1 second. Because when I return to the general area where the plane should be I won't be able to find it period.

 

Talking about the target fixation here. And not because I want to, but because without it I lose the aircraft completely...

 

it shouldn't be that hard...

 

 

I run into this a lot, I try to not zoom in too much so i can maintain SA, but then i end up where a target can completely blend in with the ground even as i'm trying to watch it from only about 1km away (checked with markers)(as my headtracking changes bringing my eyes off target). On multiple occasions in SP i've taken the time to pause the game, then search every square mm of my 4k monitor to find the buggers and just see what my spotting problem is. Generally it's that the contrast between aircraft and ground is not. 

 

3 hours ago, SYN_Requiem said:

I've already made a large post about this issue in another thread so not repeating myself here, but along with what you say here is when an airplane either climbs above after an attack, or is already above you by only a few thousand feet, if that.... You totally lose them against the sky as they blend in which is absolutely crazy and should not happen. Spotting airplanes against the sky is incredibly easy in RL because there's nowhere for it to hide with plenty of contrast. In Il-2 once that airplane blends in with the sky above me I literally count about 10-15 seconds and start another break turn as even though I can't see them it's likely they're on their way back down.

I've noticed IRL that even something as small as a cessna is incredibly easy to spot at 8+km out, and i spent many-a-day on the playground watching for the old warbirds from Willow Run airport in Michigan From where i'd watch their landing approach would usually put them 6-7km out. At those ranges i'd spot them in about 3-5 seconds of scanning the sky. Generally any colored aircraft except the polished aircraft look like a dark dot at far distances, and they're very easy to spot with the ol mk-I eye. Anyway, that's a great tip for dealing with the issues though!

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18 hours ago, III/JG52_Otto_-I- said:

Anybody noted that silver polish aluminum skin of a real P-51 shine a lot of more in a sunny day, than we have in game??
these shine flashes can be seen from miles of distance, in a real airplane. ...and of course a lot of more than an aircraft with matt mimetic paint.

image.thumb.png.d00de0d61ad82555c930afaeaadab855.png

This pictures was screen capture from the folowing video of a real P-51 

  Reveal hidden contents

aa
Noted the next video of  Me-262 and Fw-190 that they almost do not shine except for the canopy glass.

 

 

This level of brightness is not achievable on a PC monitor unless you want it to be literally as bright as the real sun and burn your retinas 😎

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1 hour ago, blitze said:

Are you running Restored Nvidia Control Panel settings?

 

What are your in game graphics settings?

 

What is your monitor you are using and at what Resolution?

 

Actually, all that are having this visibility issue should assemble these details so that info can be examined and the issue rectified. 

Good idea here. 

 

I'm running default Nvidia options for the game (havent changed anything in the Nvidia options for this game) In-game graphics settings are all at max, i think i have bloom and depth of field off. Dell ultrawide 4k monitor, its number is something like "U3415W" but it's 3440x1440 resolution. Running factory default color settings on "game" mode with dynamic contrast off. 

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@ Kataphrakt - I did some 2D testing on my 4K 28" samsung monitor.  I must admit, things were on the small side and I was using mouse look with HOTAS to look around / fly but smallness aside, there wasn't an issue for me with loosing aircraft in short to med distance against sky/background.  It was more just, having to zoom in and out FOV and dealing with flying one hand on stick and the other between mouse look and throttle.

 

The 2D benefit at 4K - lovely sharp image, the minus - lack of depth and 1 to 1 scale compared with VR.  With VR, with my setup, at 1km out planes become a bit of an aliased mess but still visible and if detected earlier (0.5km) then they can be tracked easily.  Need to have them in at 0.5km to Id them at the furthest as beyond that - the image is too pixelated to discern detail at least on smaller planes.

 

As for aliasing in VR - only cure for that is a better quality headset with the grunt to power it at SS res.  If I use in game MSAA in VR then everything blurs out at distance and is harder to see.  My test with 2D was without AA as well and I wonder if AA might be part of the issue with viewing against background issues people in 2D are experiencing.👻

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Anyone have any good graphics settings for spotting? Spotting seems to have gotten worse and for the life of me I can't find any solution.

This is what I see, my buddy was only a few km in front of me yet I couldn't see him at all. He was for sure within 5km yet I could barley see him, he was right next to that flak.

 

20200117174641_1.thumb.jpg.a61618c0948a5fe05407f7e407b1452d.jpg

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I am also running an ultra wide monitor at 3440X1440.... It's a blessing to have that much real estate... but damn most my contacts are 2 pixels.

I have ran the game at a lower resolution but still at 21x9 aspect 2560x1080. It helps spotting a ton because it blows up the image a bit... but the fine detail suffers. Crappy trade-off. 

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14 hours ago, Legioneod said:

Anyone have any good graphics settings for spotting? Spotting seems to have gotten worse and for the life of me I can't find any solution.

This is what I see, my buddy was only a few km in front of me yet I couldn't see him at all. He was for sure within 5km yet I could barley see him, he was right next to that flak.

 

20200117174641_1.thumb.jpg.a61618c0948a5fe05407f7e407b1452d.jpg

 

I can't find anything that works well any more.  :(

This and other visibility issues, like camouflaged allied aircraft shinning white like they have a metallic finish when they don't, have pretty much ruined what was a very enjoyable flight simulation before.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman 

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Been away for a while and have returned back to il-2 and the first thing i noticed was the change in spotting it was hard before but now its harder online servers only . Many people now have good monitors and are flying in high res 2k and above some say they fly in 4k . Must be very difficult . 

A year ago it was hard as the enemy would blend into back ground colour . As mentioned .

I hope things pick up as it seems we have along way to go with the new campaigns that are coming up .  

Edited by Con

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5 minutes ago, Con said:

Many people now have good monitors and are flying in high res 2k and above some say they fly in 4k . Must be very difficult . 

I can see and ID other aircraft very well in 4K. It is not difficult at all, it’s very nice. 

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