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FW190 A5 - Going at 550 Km/h. Cool, what's next?

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Posted (edited)

vs Yak7 in QMB:

 

I can't maneuver: he out-maneuvers me. I cant climb. He activates the UFO mode and climbs with me. I tried to climb at 420 kmh... Can't lose him. Try to reach 1500 m altitude, then do a 1/2 roll and pull so that I change alt. for speed and try to, at least, create some horizontal distance between us. Fail. Try to cause a intentional accelerated stall, so that he misses his shot or something. Fail, as he just performs whatever maneuver is needed to keep track on me.

 

Frontal engage is not an option to me, yeah the 190 has devastating weapons... but frontal engaging is, to me, idiotic and risky and do not worth it. Plus, AI aiming is 500340923049 times better than mine, no matter the angle between the planes or speed or blah blah.

 

I can't do what I can with a ME262 against any AI plane: create horizontal distance, do a 2000m altitude insta-climb once my plane is going at ~750 Khm, then bounce him while laughing at the stalled AI plane while The Indomitable Beast dives at 900 kmh with no problem.

 

I can't do what I can with a 109 against any plane: outclimb it or outmaneuver it, depending if its a Yak, Mig, La, etc.

 

The only situations I shot down things with the 190 are:

1) When, for no aparent or good reasons, the enemy AI decide to flight straight, even if a plethora of tracers of my plane are all around him and rekting his plane. Boring as hell, since I feel like I'm killing a pilot who fall asleep in straight flight.

 

2) In Berloga, bouncing distracted enemies (Berloga is "easy" for that).

 

Idk why I even try, ME262 is my favorite (kinda obvious) and the 109 its just the "work-horse"... but the 190 looks pretty sexy and, in good hands, its god. What should I need to have those "good hands" that make the 190 work? I tried everything that my brain can imagine, with 0 effect. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by ME-BFMasserME262
corrected some grammar and some other wrong stuff
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10 minutes ago, =BAIT=CG_Justin said:

Your roll rate is astonishing. Use that?

To evade him? yes. Just to have him in my tail again after few secs.... then repeat, and repeat again. Can evade his attacks eternally like that, but not much more.

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Turn with him if you must. Go below 300km/h, extend flaps and activate the boost. It is also crucial to always keep the ball centered or else you can spin out prematurely. Remember to have some altitude in case you do spin because it is easy to do in FW-190 (and practice spin-recovery beforehand).

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1 hour ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

vs Yak7 in QMB:

 

I can't maneuver: he out-maneuvers me. I cant climb. He activates the UFO mode and climbs with me. I tried to climb at 420 kmh... Can't lose him. Try to reach 1500 m altitude, then do a 1/2 roll and pull so that I change alt. for speed and try to, at least, create some horizontal distance between us. Fail. Try to cause a intentional accelerated speed, so that he misses his shot or something. Fail, as he just performs whatever maneuver is needed to keep track on me.

 

Frontal engage is not an option to me, yeah the 190 has devastating weapons... but frontal engaging is, to me, idiotic and risky and do not worth it. Plus, AI aiming is 500340923049 times better than mine, no matter the angle between the planes or speed or blah blah.

 

I can't do what I can with a ME262 against any AI plane: create horizontal distance, do a 2000m altitude insta-climb once my plane is going at ~750 Khm, then bounce him while laughing at the stalled AI plane while The Indomitable Beast dives at 900 kmh with no problem.

 

I can't do what I can with a 109 against any plane: outclimb it or outmaneuver it, depending if its a Yak, Mig, La, etc.

 

The only situations I shot down things with the 190 are:

1) When, for no aparent or good reasons, the enemy AI decide to flight straight, even if a plethora of tracers of my plane are all around him and rekting his plane. Boring as hell, since I feel like I'm killing a pilot who fall asleep in straight flight.

 

2) In Berloga, bouncing distracted enemies (Berloga is "easy" for that).

 

Idk why I even try, ME262 is my favorite (kinda obvious) and the 109 its just the "work-horse"... but the 190 looks pretty sexy and, in good hands, its god. What should I need to have those "good hands" that make the 190 work? I tried everything that my brain can imagine, with 0 effect. 

 

 

First thing that's important is to know your own plane. The FW190A-5 is an excellent fighter with firepower (as you noted), excellent roll rate that's effective at nearly all speeds, and is very small, compact and streamlined. It's also pretty easy on the engine management so those are all things in its corner. It's not perfect and it has some weaknesses. One of them is the high wing loading and low drag wings which make the FW190 fast but also mean that high angle of attack maneuvers and tight turns are best avoided or only done in very short duration.

 

The Yak-7B Series 36 has a higher climb rate (something you mentioned as a "UFO" but that would be a mischaracterization) until around 6000 meters so trying to out climb the Yak-7B at medium and low altitudes is not recommended. See the data:

 

Yak-7B

Climb rate at sea level: 16.9 m/s

Climb rate at 3000 m: 14.3 m/s

Climb rate at 6000 m: 8.6 m/s

 

FW190A-5

Climb rate at sea level: 15.4 m/s

Climb rate at 3000 m: 11.9 m/s

Climb rate at 6000 m: 9.7 m/s

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/25993-aircraft-flight-and-technical-specifications-and-operational-details/

 

The Yak-7B is perhaps a bit of an awkward looking fighter but it shouldn't be underestimated. Especially this early 1943 variant with the upgraded engine, lighter weight, and easy handling that was built into the series from the early trainer versions.

 

Fighting in the FW190 requires a different approach than the Bf109. While in the Bf109 you can use an excellent climb rate and power to weight ratio to mix it up with enemy fighters, the FW190 requires more of a strategic thought process to aerial engagements. Flying the FW190 in a fight is much less about selecting individual enemy aircraft and beating them than it is about hunting the whole group at the same time and making periodic feints into the target zone to overwhelm with firepower and speed. And speed it does have in spades above the Yak-7B except at medium altitude where the difference is less than 15km/h.

 

You should always seek to enter the engagement in the FW190 with more speed or more altitude (both cases having the energy advantage) and then use that to ensure separation from the enemy fighters and then engage when the opportunity strikes. If you miss your attack run, done typically at high speed and engine power, you never follow them... You always break away and reposition for another attack. A Bf109 might follow but a FW190 shouldn't.

 

IMHO, the FW190 is one of the deadliest fighters of WWII and certainly in sim. When flown to tactics fitting the FW190, it can be nearly untouchable to most Russian fighters exposing its pilot to limited periods of time where they are vulnerable.

 

In defensive flying you want to use roll rate to force an overshoot or to Split S and disengage in a shallow high speed dive. Most Russian fighters, save the La-5 (maybe) or La-5FN (probably), cannot follow such a maneuver if executed with enough room. If you do it and he's right on your six... well that's another story.

 

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Posted (edited)

It's not an easy fight if both planes start with equal levels of energy, the 190 is not supposed to engage in fair fights ^^ One thing you can try is to build an altitude advantage from the start while the AI spends it's energy in horizontal turns, the Yak has a better sustained climb rate than the Fw 190 but you can use your higher speed to build it via zooming and then diving on him to climb again.
 

 

Edited by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard
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If you think yak-7bs are bad, wait until you have to deal with those tempests in a 190a8.

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56 minutes ago, Fern said:

If you think yak-7bs are bad, wait until you have to deal with those tempests in a 190a8.

I don't even try... I prefer to play the E7 against tempests, and I get better results (against AI of course)!

I use A8 only for ground attacks... as a fighter... no thanks!

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Your Reports pretty much confirm what the Russians found against the 190s. The Russians found that Fights would often End up in a Head On Situation in which the 190s would use their superior Firepower, Ammocount, Armor and Radial Engines to defeat the more lightly armed and often unarmored Soviet Fighters.

They stopped that Practice once Fighters with heavier Cannons arrived, especially the Yak-9T, which came as a bit of a Shock.

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You should try the fw190a3/A5 on berloga a bit more...

First get used to the guns. High angle deflection shoots should be your bread and butter. Dont try to follow a plane to shoot at it. Get used to "cut" across his path, send a wall of bullets and watch the results while speeding away. Almost like setting a course to crash into him, and adjusting slightly. You might not be able to follow a 360 degree turn with a yak. But you can go damn fast and have plenty of control autority to roll and pitch sharp for an instant.

 

If you have a six and it's not extremily close,  put your nose just below the horizon (I'm assuming you are not too slow, YOU SHOULD NEVER BE) and try to enter into a scissors fight, he can't roll fast enough, so in 2 or 3 reversals he is either un front of you or climbing to get away.

 

If you have a yak on your sight, you should be quite aweare of the relative speeds/enery of both you and he.  If you are way faster, snap shoot and get away/climb. If similar or you are a bit slower, you can try to turn with him long enough to send a salvo of cannon round His way. The first step of flaps can help if you are arround 300kmh, but even then, dont try to turn for More than 1/4 of a turn. maybe 1/2 a turn. That is where being good with your shooting really gets important, you Will have 1 good oportunity to shoot. Afther that you are gambling...

 

 

Good luck!

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what you both replied only confirms it: you need to have a master aiming capabilities. And I don't have that.

That's why I like the 109 more, you can do mistakes and still survive and win the battle or at least evade safe 99% times.

190 skill cap its far beyond the 109's, and I dont seem to find the way to reach that.

But I won't give up, I really want to master it someday.

 

With the community help I guess I will... after all that's what the community did in my post about the Mig 😆

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In my experience, the 190 does not fare well in a 1v1 situation where the end goal of disengaging is not an acceptable outcome unless -

  1.  You are in a significantly advantageous position and can get the job done before loosing that advantage
  2. The pilot you are fighting against is of a significantly lower skill level

The 190 fares much better in numbers.

 

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39 minutes ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

what you both replied only confirms it: you need to have a master aiming capabilities. And I don't have that.

That's why I like the 109 more, you can do mistakes and still survive and win the battle or at least evade safe 99% times.

190 skill cap its far beyond the 109's, and I dont seem to find the way to reach that.

But I won't give up, I really want to master it someday.

 

With the community help I guess I will... after all that's what the community did in my post about the Mig 😆

As one who definitely does not have master aiming ability but loves the 190, please allow me to contradict :) 

 

I do what Fernando advised a few posts up: use the excellent handling of the 190 to aim my plane at a spot where the enemy will be.  Pull the trigger.  Let him fly through it.   By doing this I am not making sustained maneuvers that bleed my speed.  I'm just pointing my plane in his general direction and shooting.  It uses a lot of ammo but the 190 has a lot of ammo.  

 

If I can't do that then fly straight at full power.  When I want to return I like a half loop to gain altitude that I can turn into speed as I reenter the fight.  I do not do a 180 degree horizontal turn as this bleeds speed and loses alt at the same time.

 

YoYos are also nice to set up the angle for said wall of lead.  If the other guy turns horizontally, pull up, pull the plane through to create an intercept path, use the altitude that you gained to rebuild speed, pull the trigger.

 

This is the opposite of the precision shooting required in the 109 with its single cannon.  

 

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Posted (edited)

I have been playing a lot with the 190-A5/A8 lately against a variety of allied planes. The current BoX 190 performs closer to RL pilot accounts IMHO. It was already more maneuverable than the old il-2 1946 version and the new physiology tends to nerf the turning ability of turn fighters like the Yak. (Plus the cockpit is awesome in VR).

 

That said, it is not a turn fighter, I have read combat reports of 190s vs Yaks in late 43-44. Whenever the 190s got into turning fights with Yaks, they would lose. 190s won when they did a surprise bounce since with their heavy firepower, they could take out multiple ACs in one pass. (note however that most 190s on the Eastern front at that time were the heavier JABO version).

 

In game, you don't want to get into an equal fight, you will lose. My rules:

 

1.You want to be higher where you can decide if and how you want to attack. If the Yak is below you, try to maneuver into an attack position, if not extend away and live to fight another day.

 

2. If the Yak is at the same or higher distance, only attack if you think you can surprise him, otherwise extend away and live to fight another day;

 

3. If all else fails, try to attack head on, you have a better chance of winning/survival.

Edited by Sgt_Joch
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Spend some time flying the Yak.  You will then better understand how to fight against it.

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Hey Me, don't give up the 190 is an awesome lady ;) Here is a video that probably helps you a bit :)

 

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Posted (edited)

The Yak7B has similar, and sometimes superior performance specs than the 190-A5. It will out-turn you at most altitudes a Yak can actually play at because it has a lighter wingload, and higher PWR than the 190 has (at SL). At altitudes up to 3k the 190-A5 will even have to use combat engine power to keep up with the 7B.

 

Naturally this all translates to better turn rates, higher turn speed, and higher climb rates for the 7B until you get into higher altitudes. The 190 is a heavy aircraft, it's even out-climbed by the humble I-16. You have to make use of your high altitude performance if you want to beat out an aircraft with better low altitude specs. Fight the usual waffle way: Clobber your foes with absurd excesses of energy. (This is what you said you basically do in your 262, so do the same thing except you actually have to start with the advantage and not give it up by trying to turn fight a turn fighter at low altitudes).

 

The AI is also superhumanly good at a few things, mainly coordinated flight, SA, and reading their gauges. Aiming they're okay at i guess. Most head-on's i've ended up in against an AI i've been able to dodge with just a little rudder and roll. 

 

 

Edited by Kataphrakt

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2 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

@6FG_Big_Al How did you get your gunsight so bright?  Mine is this pale thing that barely shows up.

Sorry to disappoint you, my gunsight looks the same in Il-2 GB. This video was not made by me and is from Il-2 1946 (possibly with graphic mods).
But the core content shown by the creator is still valid :)

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Posted (edited)

It's simple.

 

1 v 1 Fw is inferior (vs almost anything, not only Yak).

4 v 4 (or more) Fw turns into a brute - it is made to clear the wingman's tail, not own one!

 

Find 3 wingmen, and take on 4 aces in Yaks. You'll massacre them.

 

In other words - Fw isn't meant to turnfight, it isn't meant for E-fighting (that's NOT bnz!), however it shines (and that's an understatement) in drag'n'bag.

Edited by CrazyDuck
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Posted (edited)

Once that you'll be able to maneuver and especially change direction sharply without entering accelerated stall, cut E/A's turn rather than following them, and manage your energy to the point that you will know exactly when to break a fight to create a tactical separation... then, like many, i'm sure you're never going to go back to 109s.

 

No plane is as fun to fly and deadly at the same time, none.

Edited by Dr_Molem
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19 minutes ago, Dr_Molem said:

Once that you'll be able to maneuver and especially change direction sharply without entering accelerated stall, cut E/A's turn rather than following them, and manage your energy to the point that you will know exactly when to break a fight to create a tactical separation... then, like many, i'm sure you're never going to go back to 109s.

 

No plane is as fun to fly and deadly at the same time, none.

I guess so. I do admit 190 > 109, but it's just 100 times harder to master imo

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37 minutes ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

I guess so. I do admit 190 > 109, but it's just 100 times harder to master imo

 

190 is primarily bomber/ground-attacker killer so you should learn to engage heavy and medium planes first and only then try attacking Yaks.

In this way you won't get discouraged too fast.

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12 hours ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

what you both replied only confirms it: you need to have a master aiming capabilities. And I don't have that.

That's why I like the 109 more, you can do mistakes and still survive and win the battle or at least evade safe 99% times.

190 skill cap its far beyond the 109's, and I dont seem to find the way to reach that.

But I won't give up, I really want to master it someday.

There is really no getting around it if you want to use the FW190. Whatever you do, it always ends up in having to make that shot, obviously the first time. Some 190 pilots get multiple opportunities in one df but that is not the way to fly it anyway.

 

Purely for offline - you should force AI to overshoot as it likes to keep E advantage even while flying yaks.

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Posted (edited)

Mostly as others have said, fight with friends covering, engage with an energy advantage, and maneuver gently to sustain energy advantage. More or less goes for all fighters though right?

 

More to your point, when you're being chased without E advantage, lean on that superior roll rate a lot. If they get in real close, the 190 can easily flop into and back out of a quick spin that will induce overshoot. You'll have time for a snapshot on the other side of it that is often enough to at least panic the other guy, if not get the kill.

 

I don't fly German much, but A-5 with the extra wing-mount cannons is my definite go-to when I do. I find it to be an absolute killer.

Edited by 69th_Bazzer

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1 hour ago, 69th_Bazzer said:

 

I don't fly German much, but A-5 with the extra wing-mount cannons is my definite go-to when I do. I find it to be an absolute killer.

 

  Also the A-3 is an absolute beast on its time period, a bit under apreciated in my opinion.

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I prefer the A3 over the A5 anyways. I like how I feel it more maneuverable.

But the outcome its often the same: rekt by red guns.

Now the D9 its another story...

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Posted (edited)
On 1/6/2020 at 10:01 PM, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

It's not an easy fight if both planes start with equal levels of energy, the 190 is not supposed to engage in fair fights ^^ One thing you can try is to build an altitude advantage from the start while the AI spends it's energy in horizontal turns, the Yak has a better sustained climb rate than the Fw 190 but you can use your higher speed to build it via zooming and then diving on him to climb again.
 

 

 

so, just Immelmann after each pass, then go into a slight dive to pick up speed for the next one, until you have the upper hand?
Also, what convergence are you using?

 

To OP:

i went from enjoying FWs but not being particularly good with them to being useless after the physiology changes, as it's not possible to wrench your plane into position any more.

I've found I enjoy them much more now by:

 

1. starting duel QMB with a 1-2000m height advantage. You wouldn't engage at equal energy in a FW and would instead need to take time to run and climb to get into a proper stance for attack, so just cut to the good part so you can practice your passes and energy retention.

 

2. play multi plane QMBs, with at least one wingman, so you can use your buddy to drag and bag. I do this with an advantage too.

 

This seems to line up with what people are saying here on their proper use.

Edited by von_Michelstamm

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I flown FW not too much online. But it is the only plane I never been shot down in online. I was running on a good one with the P 51 also until I got cocky. 
I have to add that I used it as a fighter bomber where the idea was to drop a bomb and get away. My impression is that there are no better ac for that purpose in game. 
While in offline I again get disappointed by the radial engine lack of ability to take damage. It seize very quickly unlike water-cooled engines. That I continue to get impressed by getting home with liquid vapor leaking from it 20 minutes or more

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, von_Michelstamm said:

 

so, just Immelmann after each pass, then go into a slight dive to pick up speed for the next one, until you have the upper hand?
Also, what convergence are you using?


That's what works for me against the ace AI at least, I use 300 meters convergence.

Edited by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

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23 hours ago, WheelwrightPL said:

 

190 is primarily bomber/ground-attacker killer so you should learn to engage heavy and medium planes first and only then try attacking Yaks.

 


I think all the guys from the JG51 and JG 54 would completely disagree with you...😅

https://www.luftwaffe.cz/

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On 1/7/2020 at 3:15 PM, Bremspropeller said:

Put the thing on the thing and pull the trigger:

 

 

This guys flying with keyboard? 

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On 1/7/2020 at 5:11 PM, 6FG_Big_Al said:

Hey Me, don't give up the 190 is an awesome lady ;) Here is a video that probably helps you a bit :)

 

It actually helped me a lot. Watching that I realize I was flying the 190 in a very wrong way: always looking for my enemy's 6. And thats difficult or even impossible in many cases. So I had to "cut" my enemy's trajectory... And It worked greatly.

I even tried a G4 vs Yak7 battle and flown it like a 190 (somewhat), "intercepting" and "cutting" my enemy's trajectory and it worked too.

So I guess I will have to improve my aiming, since its crucial when flying the 190.

 

 

On 1/7/2020 at 7:18 AM, Fern said:

If you think yak-7bs are bad, wait until you have to deal with those tempests in a 190a8.

yesterday I tried it, 2 times.

I actually feel it "easy" to shot down Tempests (AI). The problem started when I wanted to fight a mustang with the A8. There, I felt my advantages were almost 0 against him.

 

Then I tried the Dora against the mustang and against the Tempest...

The Dora its just to UFO for me. I like it, but I feel like I'm being unfair with the poor AI.

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You will find that you use more ammo that way, but that is one of the many great things about the 190 - it has plenty.  The Russian planes that I have flown, as well as the 109, I do not feel comfortable blazing away like that.  You can also see how that plays into the 190s other strengths.  Because you can shoot like that you don't have to maneuver for a 6:00 kill.  Not having to maneuver means you don't have to bleed speed in the 190.  Not bleeding speed means you can stay fast and and use the 190s exceptional high speed handling to make that last adjustment, cut inside your opponent, and line up that shot.  Put it all together and combine it with a rugged airframe, then combine that with teamwork, and you can see how effective the 190 can be.  

 

Just don't duel with it.  It's a mace and not a rapier.

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Fw 190 can perfectly engage 1v1 with equal energy, since i do it and i'm far to be the best here i'm sure anybody can do it with a bit of practice.

 

The key as said above is to cut enemy's turn and this means burning literally ALL your energy to get that monstruous 1-2 seconds shot with your 2x 8/13mm and 4x 20mm.

 

In case you miss you may have a chance to get a second shot but rarely a third one, you will have to disengage at that point.

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On 1/6/2020 at 11:02 PM, WheelwrightPL said:

Turn with him if you must. Go below 300km/h, extend flaps and activate the boost. It is also crucial to always keep the ball centered or else you can spin out prematurely. Remember to have some altitude in case you do spin because it is easy to do in FW-190 (and practice spin-recovery beforehand).

Alright, so the real money question is how do y'all keep the ball centered in combat? I'm still learning the basics, but whenever i do dogfight it seems like i have to chose between keeping my eyes on the enemy, or keeping coordinated flight.

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6 hours ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

It actually helped me a lot. Watching that I realize I was flying the 190 in a very wrong way: always looking for my enemy's 6. And thats difficult or even impossible in many cases. So I had to "cut" my enemy's trajectory... And It worked greatly.

I even tried a G4 vs Yak7 battle and flown it like a 190 (somewhat), "intercepting" and "cutting" my enemy's trajectory and it worked too.

So I guess I will have to improve my aiming, since its crucial when flying the 190.

I'm glad that video helped you. :)
Of course the manoeuvre works with other planes as well, but surely the 190 will benefit most from it. 

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6 hours ago, Kataphrakt said:

Alright, so the real money question is how do y'all keep the ball centered in combat? I'm still learning the basics, but whenever i do dogfight it seems like i have to chose between keeping my eyes on the enemy, or keeping coordinated flight.

 

You don't have to look at the inclinometer constantly, like you don't have to look at your altitude and other gauges constantly. Do a quick glance only after you have changed your flight vector. Also you have to be more "on the ball" (pun intended) in combat situations because smooth flying can give you an edge. That's why it is so much fun to fly those WW2 planes because they reward skill, in modern jets you hardly ever use rudder.

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I hear ya alright, it's not easy no.

But most my successes have been head-on passes though. 
I know you don't like to do this, but i have to mention that i think you should reconsider.

 

I had a 1v1 with an AI pilot yesterday and i also had trouble with him, but eventually i ripped him up via a head-on pass.

The rollrate of the FW-190 is just so damn good, it amazes me every time, i use it to extend and then try to do my magic trick.

 

That big cockpit edge is blocking the view sometimes so i move my face forward as much as i can to have the best view and then hide behind the cowl and blast away.

Edited by Fastbikkel

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