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Beebop

Stuka's Won't Attack Target

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I'll check this out.  Thanks for going to the trouble to make this test mission.

In my screenshots the planes were set to 2500 meters but in mission testing the results are still a shallow dive.  After observing your mission I will try a higher altitude in my mission.

Report after lunch.

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Watched the mission.  An interesting observation....

"... if they are carrying multiple bombs, they only release the main bomb in the dive, then they will "fly around the chicken pen" and revert to doing the shallow divebomb technique for the other bombs ..."

One of the planes in the 2800 meters groups, in a snow camo, had multiple bombs and on the first pass dropped them all.  As far as I could tell the setup for that flight was no different than any of the others (except for altitude of course) and all the other planes did as you said, drop only one bomb at a time.  Any idea why?

 

Anyway, as for my mission, I played around with the distance of the waypoint prior to the attack area and moved the altitude up, first to 2800 meters then down to 2600 meters but when they got to the attack area they actually started to roll over on their back then at about a 100 degrees of roll straightened up and just flew toward home base not dropping any bombs.  Interestingly they did not travel to Waypoint 3, the waypoint on the other side of the attack area where they should have turned around.

Next thing to try is to rebuild the entire flight from scratch.  And if that works then I guess you can't import flights from another map, place them and expect them to work.  Shame, it would save a lot of mission building time.  The Devs should get someone to work exclusively on the ME in my opinion and either fix any issues or at least clarify how to use the individual elements of the ME. (or, start giving discounts to those of us who do figure out how to make things work reliably and pass that info on.)

Just sayin'.

Edited by Beebop

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Interesting observation about the lone Stuka dropping it's whole payload.  I wonder if what it's targeting is different from the others (there are some old M5 tanks, some trucks, some cars and a gunner, so maybe that ties into it).  

 

While the ME is known to be far from perfect... in my experience, every time I'm tempted to blame the tool I end up losing an opportunity to learn about a fixable problem I could have solved myself.  In this case, where you've made steady progress getting toward the goal, it's likely that some continued scrutiny will get some results.   This interrupted dive bomb attack  sounds intriguing.   The timing would be extremely coincidental but is there a downstream waypoint after WP3 that may have gotten activated some other way?  Is there a shared "Land" command back at the base they fly to, that is object linked to other aircraft that could have activated that command?   In my example, I am sharing the "Land" command with all the other planes in the other flights and that is IMHO not the way to go, just pure laziness on my part in trying to set up an example mission to demonstrate the other stuff - but not good, since any aircraft returning early can then influence the behavior of all other aircraft that are object linked to it. Can you pause the game at that very moment when the Stuka calls off the attack, and see what other objects and aircraft are doing?  Anyone getting close to landing?

 

Just for fun, how large is the Stuka's attack area?  They're not flying out of it as they roll on their back, are they?

 

 

 

Edited by =[TIA]=Stoopy
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16 hours ago, Beebop said:

@jollyjack, if your Ju-52's are below ground, in the ME select the plane icon and then click on the Green down arrow in the toolbar.  It's under the words "Draw" and "Tools" between the 'F' (Focus on selection) and 'Zoom to cursor'.  HTH

 

 

yep, i know, but it does not work, the wingmen are OK, but the leader stay below ... must be some map error, or a FMB bug.

PS when i click on the wingmen they also go below ground ...

 

Ground level bug.jpg

 

EDIT: I found it with Notepad, had to manually set the season to "su", as it was always "" (no season), in the *.mission file

 

Edited by jollyjack

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40 minutes ago, jollyjack said:

 

EDIT: I found it with Notepad, had to manually set the season to 'su', as it was always "" (no season), in the *.mission file

 

It's been a while since I've seen that problem crop up.

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@Stoopy
"is there a downstream waypoint after WP3 that may have gotten activated some other way?  Is there a shared "Land" command back at the base they fly to, that is object linked to other aircraft that could have activated that command?"
I don't think so.  At this time I have three different flights going.  A Ju-52 flight that takes off at player spawn and land s at a forward airfield.  The Para Ju-52 flight that spawns at mission start, drops on the target city then returns to a further back airfield and the Stuka's which also spawn at mission start and after bombing (supposedly) return to yet a third rear airfield.  Each flight has it's own, separate set of MCU's and waypoints.  Each flight has it's own Land MCU.  Nothing is shared.  I have seen several posts on other subjects that say it's not a good idea for many of the type of reasons you mention.

 

"how large is the Stuka's attack area?  They're not flying out of it as they roll on their back, are they? "
The Attack Area radius is 250 meters, just big enough to encompass a small artillery group of 5 guns (zis3), their hauler trucks (static zis truck) + 1 tank (t70), at the outskirts of town guarding the road into it while the Red Army is fleeing from it.  (A large convoy with it's own MCU's and waypoints).  Although I can't see them go outside the Attack Area radius during gameplay I would imagine they do go outside of it during the roll over.  That wasn't a problem for the test group I used for a screenshot.  As stated earlier I deliberately kept the Suka's Attack Area small so it doesn't overlap the Para drop Attack Area radius.  But as pointed out earlier, overlapping radius's shouldn't matter.  I will enlarge it and see what happens.
 
"While the ME is known to be far from perfect... in my experience, every time I'm tempted to blame the tool I end up losing an opportunity to learn about a fixable problem I could have solved myself."
Yeah you're probably right but I still wish the Dev's had done a better job of documenting the ME other than saying it was "powerful" as it is much more complex than the 46 FMB which Oleg did document and it was riddled with holes.  Still a flawed document from them would be better than nothing.  (I still think any owner who posts a workable solution for a game problem that's not a mod should get a discount on their next purchase).

But for all that said I am far from giving up on this.  I'll beat this problem if I have to use a stick!  And with everyone's help.

 

@jollyjack:

Good find.  Odd as I assume you set the terrain presets for summer as well as choosing the summer map.  Is the mission date not a summer date?  Could that have affected it?

Also, in case that happens to someone else, (like me for instance), what file did you find that it?

 

Another 'Thank You' to everyone who posts for continuing to assist.  Without this help and encouragement I might have given up long ago.

 

EDIT:

Here's how it's currently laid out with enlarged Stuka Attack Area radius:

1495760418_AttackLayout.thumb.jpg.4fe22b9b7d531ec280acca8f6edda4ac.jpg

Edited by Beebop

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3 hours ago, Beebop said:

@jollyjack:

Good find.  Odd as I assume you set the terrain presets for summer as well as choosing the summer map.  Is the mission date not a summer date?  Could that have affected it?

Also, in case that happens to someone else, (like me for instance), what file did you find that it?

 

 

Actually i think it was a tip from JimTM i all of a sudden remembered when i has another situation with an underground plane some months ago ...
Aha Erlebnis; it usually happens when you wake up in the morning and your brain has been working al night cleaning up the messy info from the day before .....

 

PS your piccy from above would be maybe more helpful if all essential settings were not hidden in groups? Post it's mission file?

Edited by jollyjack

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@jollyjack

" your piccy from above would be maybe more helpful if all essential settings were not hidden in groups? Post it's mission file? "

Done.

 

The Breach.zip

Edited by Beebop

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Okay I read the post through and y'all are all over the place with this...

That you are discussing how the AI perform differently using different CMDs is important.

 

Didn't realize this was a Dogfight Mission until I downloaded it.

And yes there are structural things within logic that need to be taken into account because of this.

You didn't ask but here is your Breach mission Beebop with the following corrections and suggestions from my experience.

The Breach New.zip

 

First you are attempting to have your Ju-87 and Ju-52 Flights as started but linked together as a group.

These now are activated (note logic within new mission) and then targeted to their respective leaders and behave properly.

 

*Stukas form up in V Formation then roll over and dive on the Artillery positions then continue to 1st RTB Waypoint which is now triggered by On Bingo Bombs Event from Leader. This RTB Waypoint is now in line with the Group coming out of its dive and at a much lower altitude. The 2 wingmen still are a bit rambunctious coming out of the dive but you could play with the distance and altitude if you'd like for the RTB Waypoint. They then Re-gain Formation and head to the house.

 

*The Attack Area MCU radius needed to encompass just the position you want attacked. It was way too large and encompassed all sorts of VVS Linked Entities.

-I don't like using a Attack Area Command for this mission. You give them too much leeway to screwup. If you want AI to behave in a reasonable fashion then you must keep them on a very tight leash. An Attack Group Command would better serve you as all you want from them is to drop in the middle of the position and bug out. Set up and activate a couple Fake_Vehicles as the target with their heading the same as the Artillery guns. Yes, vehicle heading direction does affect Stuka and other attack aircraft Dive Bombing and attack runs. Make sure they are activated before the Stukas are.

 

*Added a Waypoint after Ju-52 Paradrop so they can keep formation on the egress turn better.

-You had the speeds of the Ju-52s as 100/kph. Speeds have been set to 225/kph. You would be better served as a Mission Designer to fly along side the AI at times to understand their limitations. Their Land CMD was not object linked to the Ju-52 Ldr. That needs to be done. Didn't check on the Stuka Land CMD but it too should be linked to the Ju-87 Ldr.

 

Just a note...

You also had a huge convoy with 16 vehicles started and just linked together. Basically 7 to 8 is the limit if you wish them to behave. Additionally you have several different kinds all supposed to be running at 55/kph up a large hill right after a bridge crossing. On first run they cracked up so I removed 8 IIRC and they have now been reset to be activated and the speed has been reduced.

 

Didn't look at anything else within the mission.

Keep pugging away and Good Luck with your Mission Designing,

Tip

 

 

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Tip,
WOW! 

ThankyouThankyouThankyou!!!!


Thanks for taking the time to correct my errors and improve my (lack of) logic and do it in such a way that I understand how you did it.  Not to say I understand why it's done that way but I can use your example(s) as templates for future work.  Certainly not expected but greatly appreciated.
Some of the shortfalls you noted I lay on the fact that in this ME there are many different details that need attention and while trying to solve some of the larger problems I overlooked the smaller ones.  Some I would have discovered in testing, like the CMD Land not linked to the flight, others like the speed might have gotten overlooked altogether until I finally figured out it might be a contributing factor to the missions lack of success.  You have given me a quick lesson in mission making that I probably would have taken weeks to accomplish on my own but more importantly have shown me how to get some of the results I desire and given me a new way to approach problems.
You have also given me valuable information regarding the makeup of convoys and that is good information to have.

 A lot of what you did is not explained in any of the manuals or I don't know where to look for it and if I did find it I didn't understand it.  After all my years building missions in 1946 moving to this mission editor is like going from basic math to Abstract Algebra in one huge leap.  I will be spending more time in the manual reading up on the MCU's, their function and how to use them.
There are so many different ways you can put things together and the "special circumstances" that require certain sequences messages and MCU's and connection priorities to accomplish that if I can understand the why then the application would be easier.  It's going to be a long journey but you have pointed me in the right direction.  Now this mission plays as I envisioned it and I can now continue building on it (and probably running into more missteps, but at least I have some more tools to work with.

 

What I am attempting to do is recreate the kind of overwhelming force Germany brought to bear on Russia during the opening months of Barbarossa.  Flying as Russian the idea is not to win but to give your best effort doing so.  Your help brings me closer to that goal.

 

ThankyouThankyouThankyou!  👍👌🎖️🏆:dance:

 

 

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Well, i looked at it (breach original that is), but i am still struggling with the Ju52 CMD AttackArea droppings in my mission setup.

It works OK if you set height the same as the planes (1000m), althought the para's go down quite a bit later than that the 400m area set in the AtackArea CMD, BingoCargo etc set. (Tip has some great Tips on this ..... i'll have a look later!)

 

But after setting the s Command Area stuff ALAS the planes would't RTB after they dropped, and fly off in a straight line off the map.

 

If i do something that the paras won't drop like too close WP, the planes oveshoot without dropping, cycle a little and then RTB OK.

I am now trying incorporating a counter, activate, complete, but quite ready yet.

 

I really begin to HATE that the FMB can't run at the same time as the game. It sucks.

Anybody tried a game installation twice? Different folder & naming possible?

 

------------

Edit: imported the Breach New mission file in to my missions game folder, but it was not recognized or loadable.

Erased the ctreecache and mtreecache files, still not there .. Re-saved all missions in folder, also no show ..

The FMB loads them OK, saving under a different name did not help either with game loading, dito changing Deathmatch to Single ...

Reloading Moscow autumn map, still no show .. put the folder in a new position, renamed it .. no go.

 

Tried loading the saved msnbin by naming manually (& erasing the mission file): no way.

 

What fixed it was double checking the mission properties: single setting, maps re-applying and loading, AND THEN RENAMING the whole mission.

Worth remembering this !

 

BTW This is a great file, quite a lot to learn, thanks Tip, Beebop !  Going to get some USSR planes up for messing up these nasty Nazi actions.

Pity these paratroopers disappear after landing on the ground. In real life they would group together, and shoot the enemy instead. 

Something for Tank stuff and ground battling? I saw some walking soldiers in Rise of Flight moddings.

 

 

Edited by jollyjack

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I'm having a similar problem on a straight bombing mission with two groups of B25's. I can get them drop bombs on the target via the Attach Area command perfectly. I can't get them to fly to the first RTB waypoint after bombing. It is att the same altitude and speed as the one before dropping bombs. The bombers don't circle they just drop their bombs and fly straight afterwards. 

I even lined up the first RTB waypoint with the waypoint prior to bombing and each waypoint has the lead bomber object linked to it. There is no target link from the prior waypoint to the first RTB waypoint as seen in many missions and in the FMB. 

I have the second RTB waypoint at a different direction from the first RTB waypoint as I'm trying to get the bombers to turn toward home in a gradual circle not severe. 

The attack area command get deactivated via a complex trigger via on bombs dropped so the bombers fly straight after dropping as mentioned. 

I only have two prior waypoints before dropping and these are fairly close to target so as to make testing easier and less time consuming and the bombers adjust positions to form up and fly for a number of minutes perfectly toward the target so that is not a problem. It is just after bombing that is driving me nuts. 

Any suggestion?

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@jollyjack
I had the same problem with the mission not loading but just used "Resave All Missions in Folder" fixed it.  
What I did was made a new folder for this version (I make separate folders for each, helpful if the name stays the same,  you know by folder title which version you are loading), so "Resave All Missions in Folder" had only one mission in it and much quicker.  Also, and I mentioned this when I uploaded an earlier version in a previous post, it's a Dogfight/Deathmatch mission.

 

Glossary for next section:

TL - Target Link

OL - Object Link

 

@Tip
You have done so much for me I hate to ask any more but I am curious,

 

JU-87 Flight-
* You used more logic to start the planes than I.  Why did you have the 'Mission Begin' MCU go to a 'New' Trigger Timer  >TL > 'New Activate' MCU > OL > 'ju87 leader' and it's also  >TL >  to my '2s Start Timer which is also OL to the ju87 leader?  Is that what sets the flight behavior to dive bomb?  I saw no other differences in the Attack Area MCU except the reduction of radius.  Was that also a factor in their bombing behavior?

* The ju52 paras were doing what I wanted.  Again you added logic which, when I observed it, did not change anything in their behavior.  What is the advantage to your method over my simpler method in this instance?

* Why is an 'Event Message separate and waypoints to Land used for the ju87's and the Ju-52 paras to finish their route?  Again was that to assist them in proper bombing/para dropping  behavior?

* Is there a reason why you ordered the planes in the positions to did?  Again my 'V' positioning seemed to work fine in getting them into formation.

* Finally, you said, "...I don't like using a Attack Area Command for this mission. You give them too much leeway to screwup. If you want AI to behave in a reasonable fashion then you must keep them on a very tight leash. An Attack Group Command would better serve you..."  I don't see an "Attack Group" MCU in the list.  And why do you like it better?

 

I know I am asking a lot here and if you don't have the time or inclination to answer that's OK.  I so appreciate what you have done because it shows me how to improve my building and thinking.  Thank you so much for that.  If that is all you can or are willing to  provide I am most thankful for that.

 

(btw, I downloaded your "Kerch Random Allied" mission to share with the guys I fly with and will also be studying it for more clues on using the ME)

 

You've been a godsend Tip, Thanks!

 

 

Edited by Beebop

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@Beebop:  The Resave All Missions in Folder, and new folder did not work.

Looking at the New Breach, one Q, what are the numbered Translator Icons marked as ID 4, 35, 94 etc meant for? Can i erase them maybe?

 

@Deacon: That has to do with the way you address the first waypoint after the bombing or dropping.

The solution is in Tip's New Breach,  the fix i think lies with "Bingo Etc" from the leader plane to a counter and timer addressing the first waypoint after droppings. He calls the counter it Failsafe Counter (ID12470), and what it does together with the 2 timers (On bingo 111 msec and 100 random before, and RTB WP gate, 555 msec, and 100 random after) target linked to the RTB WP must be the clue ..

 

EDIT: just tested it in another mission testing setup: That does it OK !! Thanks Tip. ADDED below as zip.

PS set your plane player on (A) autopilot and use F4, F3 or F2 to watch the show. Camera views also with F12/F11.

 

And in this one on landing some doors opened in the Ju52 i never saw before .... :

 

Doors Extra Ju52.jpg

 

Ju52 dropping testers.zip

Edited by jollyjack

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JU-87 Flight-
* You used more logic to start the planes than I.  Why did you have the 'Mission Begin' MCU go to a 'New' Trigger Timer  >TL > 'New Activate' MCU > OL > 'ju87 leader' and it's also  >TL >  to my '2s Start Timer which is also OL to the ju87 leader?  Is that what sets the flight behavior to dive bomb?  I saw no other differences in the Attack Area MCU except the reduction of radius.  Was that also a factor in their bombing behavior?

 

First this is a DF mission so you have time to cycle in things as opposed to having everything starting on Mission Begin. Which even in a SP mission you should do for a number of reasons. Frankly I'm surprised that they did follow using the way you had it setup and it didn't surprise me that you were having problems. A/C, Vehicle/Armor, Artillery Groups in order to function properly as a Group Must Be Activated with all members target linked to the leader. If you wish to make your own group of individual members then each need to have their own WPs, CMDs etc...

The improvements that the Devs have made to the AI, specifically the ground stuff, has been very well done as they now on their own accord bypass damaged or destroyed vehicles/tanks regardless of whether they are a member of an Activated group or individuals. 

  

* The ju52 paras were doing what I wanted.  Again you added logic which, when I observed it, did not change anything in their behavior.  What is the advantage to your method over my simpler method in this instance?

 

See above...

 

* Why is an 'Event Message separate and waypoints to Land used for the ju87's and the Ju-52 paras to finish their route?  Again was that to assist them in proper bombing/para dropping  behavior?

 

The first egress "RTBWP1" must not be target linked by anything in a Bombing/Attack/Drop/CAP/Escort you name it scenario until You have decided that scenario is finished using an On Event, Force Complete, Attack Areas timer or a number of other things at our disposal. This is one of the reasons why your bombing attack didn't work.

You noted or Jolly Jack did, that the logic which calls for the RTBWP1 follows prescribed timer settings. This is important for folks getting into the ME. You must dictate the order in which CMDs are fired off for your AI routines to function correctly period. If you have 2 or more CMDs going off at the same time for the same Group or Object it's a crap shoot. 

 

* Is there a reason why you ordered the planes in the positions to did?  Again my 'V' positioning seemed to work fine in getting them into formation.

 

So there was no chance of them running into each other due to the variances within the games netcode software.

 

* Finally, you said, "...I don't like using a Attack Area Command for this mission. You give them too much leeway to screwup. If you want AI to behave in a reasonable fashion then you must keep them on a very tight leash. An Attack Group Command would better serve you..."  I don't see an "Attack Group" MCU in the list.  And why do you like it better?

 

Attack CMD has a Attack Group check. Open up everything and explore the MCUs. This will be a key to not only understanding how to manipulate the AI but Why things happen.
I mentioned using a group of Fake_Vehicles for the Target Group which were activated before the AI Stuka Group and setup on a specific heading. This is so the Stuka Attack CMD works properly. Hence why you don't start everything all at once. I can't stress enough that the heading of the targeted objects is why the AI make their runs the way they do. They either want to attack from behind or from the front depending upon the AI, target and what CMD is dictating the attack along with altitude, distance to the target etc...

 
Lets say there were no objects just linked entity blocks or a town for that matter. How would you order a Stuka Group to Dive Bomb them/it then bug out and RTB?
Setting up a group of Fake_Vehicles is the answer. If their heading is pointing roughly toward the incoming Stukas then they behave as the New Breach scenario. Roll over make their dives and after the "On Event" or other method to complete the CMD look for the next MCU which is the RTBWP1 right in front of their faces and at a simular altitude. All A/C have predisposed routines. In the case of the Stukas if you have properly set up the scenario they will follow that routine. Its up to you to learn those routines and control them. Smaller A/C, Vehicle groups have less problems. Tight leash.

 

Y'all have already discussed in this topic how different loads on the Stukas make them preform different routines. Use that to your advantage and don't forget that the Force Complete CMD with Drop Ordinance checked takes alot of guess work out of the equation.

 

I thinks that enough from me for now.
Good Luck with your Mission Designing,
Tip

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Tip,

THANK YOU SO MUCH for explaining the how and why things are done. 

This is a lot to digest so I am copying it to Notepad and saving it in my 'Mission Building Tools' folder for future reference.

Your explanations and reasoning are clear and understandable.  You have increased my knowledge and understanding of the Mission Editor 1000 fold.

I thank you for taking the time to help, not being in any way condescending, and teaching not only me, but others who may read this thread. 

~S!~

 

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Thnx Tip; sounds quite logical, but I am still a little confused about how to use MCUs like force complete; i'll do some reading about it.

Now i am trying to Ai chase-target & bomb a moving train. Oil wagons and all, nice effects there ... JimTM had some tips before, but now i got a better clue. And i must admit that the Ai has improved quite some. F.i. if you set up the landing MCU sequence right with an MCU-ed Airfield put at the right spot there's no more unnecessary cycling ....

 

PS i still don't get why mission type should be set to Single, and where the others like Deatmatch or Campaign come in.

Edited by jollyjack

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