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Babayega

Best H2H Tactic with 109?

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I have pretty much mastered High yoyos, pitchbacks, Rolling scissors, etc...however on H2H (head to head) I am stuck as to what to do. normally I will pull up into a scissors in the direction of the bandits turn. However, if they disengage from the scissors, I wind up in lag pursuit and the 109 cant turn for crap against a spit, yak, or really any allied fighter. 

 

Whats the best tactic? A single turn? Double turn? I want to keep the energy advantage but I seem to bleed from 400-450 km/r down to 300 pretty quick in a turn. 

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My personal favourite is this:

1) dodge the stream of bullets coming from them

2) get some separation

3) zoom climb away

4) keep the initiative, because you didnt lose energy

5) ...

6) profit

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6 minutes ago, D3adCZE said:

My personal favourite is this:

1) dodge the stream of bullets coming from them

2) get some separation

3) zoom climb away

4) keep the initiative, because you didnt lose energy

5) ...

6) profit

yeah the zoom climb is good but I feel like I get too much separation and lose the visual too fast. With no icons on the plane can disappear fast! 

 

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Go below him, don‘t even try to get a shot in the head-on. Then shallow left climbing circle to see what he does next. If he turns hard, you have the advantage already.

also a shallow dive towards the head-on gives you additional speed and on top of that, makes his shot really hard as you disappear below his nose and he must put -G to keep eyes on you.

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If you can avoid getting hit, keep high speed, climb not at maximum angle, but steep, and once you are on a stedy climb, arround 350-300 km/h

Start a slightl turn while still climbing. If you turn left, you Will see him on your low 7. If you turn right you Will see him on your low 5.

You can either get enough distance to dive on him. Or wait for him to stall.

 

Also what Stiglitz says

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If you have just passed your opponent at the same altitude and same speed, this is a good indication that you are in a fair fight. Fair fights should be avoided.

 

In a 109, continuing ahead in a moderate climb without turning should get you the altitude advantage as the 109 is typically a better climber than it's opponents.

If you find you are not gaining an altitude advantage quickly, you can simply disengage. Separation won't be an issue as he must make a 180 degree turn to follow you and the 109 typically has a competitive top speed compared to its opponents.

There is also a chance that your opponent will focus his attention else where. In this case you can turn to engage him now he is unaware of you.

If you manage to get a clear altitude advantage, you can make some zooming passes at the enemy.

If he starts to close the altitude advantage, you can now safely disengage any point.

 

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I agree to most comments above. The key to your survival is what we call a clean close had-on merge. Place your opponent at your slightly high eleven or one o'clock and keep him there until about two seconds before he'd open fire. That's when you initiate a moderate g turn, crossing below his flight path, i.e. you transit from his low eleven o'clock to his low one o'clock or vice-versa. Many pilots get this wrong online. The point is to be very close to him at the merge without being shot. If you allow lateral separation at the merge you offer him the opportunity to perform an early lead turn into you, and be in shooting range behind you right after the merge.

 

Assuming you did a good merge: Since you were below him all the time, he has most likely built up some speed, and reversing towards you after the merge will cost some time, especially if we consider the physiology model. You did this low turn just prior to the merge. It will sucker many opponents into a predefined turn i.e. towards you. So if you turned left at the merge, quite often the bandit will do the same at and immediately after the merge. Now comes your next move: maintain your turn for a few more degrees until you have tally on the bandit. If he is aggressively turning to get behind you, you can continue in what we call a placebo turn: put the plane into a step bank, and continue into a gentle, low g turn, giving up a bit of altitude. The steep bank angle will make many opponents think that you are turning aggressively as well, and they will turn even harder, just to find out that they burned their speed, and that you are leveling out to do a zero g extension (unloaded extension). Wave good bye, extend, and come back with more altitude.

Edited by JG27_PapaFly
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Fuck that.  I just avoid getting hit and keep flying straight.  Then I go find someone else who isn't already trying to point their guns at me.

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12 o'clock vs. 12 o'clock passes are suicide.  Dodge immediately.   If you're at 12:30 or 11:30 o'clock at co-alt, you could try to kick rudder, put the crosshair slightly in front of their nose, and do a "slide-by" shot, but don't expect to be immune.  Don't time it too early or you'll end up turning straight at them instead of skidding past them.  Mig-3 is an excellent plane to practice that kind of shooting with.

You're really better off dodging the head-on and working for advantage once they pass you though.    

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If your energy state is clearly lower than your opponents, only then a head-on is a good idea, since the chances are equal of getting hits in. In any other scenario, never try to get a shot, but make it look like you do until the very last moment.

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18 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Just bore in on him and ram him, it's the only way to be sure.

 

Works in a FW190.  For all the talk of evasion, and that is a good idea in something like a 109, in a 190 (I would say P47 and P38, and Me110 as well) you really can bore in ... just leave off the ramming part :) .  

 

FW190: small target, tough plane, heavy armament.

P47: tough plane, heavy armament, lots of .50 getting put out there.

P38, Me110: two engines, center mounted guns, heavy armament.

 

While head on is never preferred (sneaking up on somebody and blasting them at 50 meters is always best) it is much more OK in some types than others.  If the other guy tries the evasive tactics as described above you can always just keep going yourself.  Except in the 110 - better hope your rear gunner or your wingman is up to the task if the initial attack fails.

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Same as with any plane.

You push down to his ‘cold’ side, then pop up enough to make him fly through your burst. Timing is a bit more difficult with a single 30mm cannon vs a burst of .50 cal.or multiple mg 151’s etc.

 

So not true “head to head” but an offset, low aspect snap-shot.

 

 

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A head-on where both opponents are shooting is a tactic for the stupid, crazy, or desperate. We go to great lengths to get our squaddies to consistently and successfully avoid such two sided head-ons. Having one guy in a squad environment who for some reason likes head-ons has a very unpleasant side effect: you can count on him losing a plane in a head-on any time, and leaving his wingman alone and in a bad situation.

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Why I do not fly fighters: List above ⬆️
 

I always believed I was not aggressive enough. 
Turns out I am too aggressive. 

Disengage 🙄If you are on a head on to anyone and fly a plane with guns in front. 
keep the plane in your crosshair pull the trigger and do not stop until one of three things happen

1. The fire underneath your dashboard make aiming impossible

2. your opponents erupt in a big puff. 
3. you smack into him

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If you are ballsy enough, you can set his cockpit on fire by flare gun. Nothing smells better than some BBQ with avgas in it.

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Posted (edited)
On 12/28/2019 at 1:00 AM, Babayega said:

I have pretty much mastered High yoyos, pitchbacks, Rolling scissors, etc...however on H2H (head to head) I am stuck as to what to do. normally I will pull up into a scissors in the direction of the bandits turn. However, if they disengage from the scissors, I wind up in lag pursuit and the 109 cant turn for crap against a spit, yak, or really any allied fighter. 

 

Whats the best tactic? A single turn? Double turn? I want to keep the energy advantage but I seem to bleed from 400-450 km/r down to 300 pretty quick in a turn. 


Along with what other people have said already,

The greatest fighter pilot of all time viewed dog fighting as wasteful (knowing the maneuvers is important and definitely not wasteful) 

Yes it gives more feelings of a true battle of skill etc 

But unless you have no choice and you know that it is unlikely that your enemy will call/ get help, it is better to separate from your enemy.

Yes we don't really die when we get shot down / black out and crash etc 

But discipline and patience are as valuable as skill

My most memorable air combat  of either series was in the old 1946 a number of years ago,

And it didn't involve a merry go round dog fight etc against a superior opponent (like David versus Goliath), but rather involved discipline and patience, and even though I didn't have any victories

My virtual self survived, and the feeling of knowing that I kept my cool etc still brings a smile to my face (more so than any of my victories)

~S~

Edited by novicebutdeadly

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Simplest is to do like Stiglitz said but with variation.

 

Full throttle, shallow dive to gain more speed, zoom with yoyo and level out at circa 300 kph to see where he is. Focus on gaining vertical separation, not horizontal.

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11 hours ago, novicebutdeadly said:

But unless you have no choice and you know that it is unlikely that your enemy will call/ get help, it is better to separate from your enemy.

 

The low aspect snap shot as I outlined above is the best option, or as Mac_Messer said above depending on the situation.

If you're in a 2 vs 1 scenario or sometimes worse, taking out a guy on the first past can make all the difference.

 

Now as to real life, it happened all the time with 8th Air Force Jugs and Mustangs when escorting bombers...head-on passes were standard to break up the German formations and keep them away from the bombers. So this is definitely a 'no choice' scenario.

 

Zooming/level out etc is fine if you know where everyone is, and you'd better. If not better extend and live to fight another day, depending on situation and what your mission is. Again the 'no choice' may rear it's head depending.

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Posted (edited)
On 12/28/2019 at 8:58 AM, JG27_PapaFly said:

I agree to most comments above. The key to your survival is what we call a clean close had-on merge. Place your opponent at your slightly high eleven or one o'clock and keep him there until about two seconds before he'd open fire. That's when you initiate a moderate g turn, crossing below his flight path, i.e. you transit from his low eleven o'clock to his low one o'clock or vice-versa. Many pilots get this wrong online. The point is to be very close to him at the merge without being shot. If you allow lateral separation at the merge you offer him the opportunity to perform an early lead turn into you, and be in shooting range behind you right after the merge.

 

Assuming you did a good merge: Since you were below him all the time, he has most likely built up some speed, and reversing towards you after the merge will cost some time, especially if we consider the physiology model. You did this low turn just prior to the merge. It will sucker many opponents into a predefined turn i.e. towards you. So if you turned left at the merge, quite often the bandit will do the same at and immediately after the merge. Now comes your next move: maintain your turn for a few more degrees until you have tally on the bandit. If he is aggressively turning to get behind you, you can continue in what we call a placebo turn: put the plane into a step bank, and continue into a gentle, low g turn, giving up a bit of altitude. The steep bank angle will make many opponents think that you are turning aggressively as well, and they will turn even harder, just to find out that they burned their speed, and that you are leveling out to do a zero g extension (unloaded extension). Wave good bye, extend, and come back with more altitude.

I have been working on the climb and separation piece of it. I pitch down and then right after the pass I do a good angle up about 50 to 60 degrees. If I see the bandit turning, I try to do a pitch back if I feel he is losing too much energy in the turn. Most of the time though, the pitch up into a chandelle seems to be working really well. Then I can assess and then reengage using a BNZ stategy. 

 

Sometimes its just very difficult to hold back and not want to pitch back and stay at an inverted bank angle to use a gravity assist to come down once he has lost energy. That has worked very effectively on some engagements. 

Edited by Babayega
adding changes

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Babayega said:

I have been working on the climb and separation piece of it. I pitch down and then right after the pass I do a good angle up about 50 to 60 degrees. If I see the bandit turning, I try to do a pitch back if I feel he is losing too much energy in the turn.

The success of this maneuver depends on your initial assessment of his energy state. If you underestimate his E state you find yourself trapped in a steep zoom, with little speed and therefore little maneuvering potential. Keep in mind that many red planes are great zoomers and are very easy to control (and to aim) in steep zoomclimbs down to walking speed.

 

We employ this and similar maneuvers as aggressive team tactics. While one of us zooms right after the merge, one or two of us are close-by, ready for a swift deadly attack on an opponent who follows in the vertical. We call these maneuvers vertical baits. Even in this scenario one should have a plan B ready. That's why my advice is a less aggressive initial zoomclimb of up to 45 degrees. During this stage, we reassess the opponents energy and tactics. Should he have an energy advantage, we can quickly transit into a dive / unloaded extension. This buys some time and provides the higher speed necessary for effective defensive maneuvering. If however the opponent follows into the maneuver despite having less energy we can steepen the climb, eventually pitching back on an opponent that is now trapped I'm the vertical, with no speed and facing crossfire. The less steep initial climb is also a good way to slowly sucker the opponent into the vertical. He will often assume that you zoom moderately because you don't have the juice to go vertical.

 

Edited by JG27_PapaFly

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3 hours ago, JG27_PapaFly said:

The success of this maneuver depends on your initial assessment of his energy state. If you underestimate his E state you find yourself trapped in a steep zoom, with little speed and therefore little maneuvering potential. Keep in mind that many red planes are great zoomers and are very easy to control (and to aim) in steep zoomclimbs down to walking speed.

 

We employ this and similar maneuvers as aggressive team tactics. While one of us zooms right after the merge, one or two of us are close-by, ready for a swift deadly attack on an opponent who follows in the vertical. We call these maneuvers vertical baits. Even in this scenario one should have a plan B ready. That's why my advice is a less aggressive initial zoomclimb of up to 45 degrees. During this stage, we reassess the opponents energy and tactics. Should he have an energy advantage, we can quickly transit into a dive / unloaded extension. This buys some time and provides the higher speed necessary for effective defensive maneuvering. If however the opponent follows into the maneuver despite having less energy we can steepen the climb, eventually pitching back on an opponent that is now trapped I'm the vertical, with no speed and facing crossfire. The less steep initial climb is also a good way to slowly sucker the opponent into the vertical. He will often assume that you zoom moderately because you don't have the juice to go vertical.

 

Yes, I have underestimated at times and found myself wide open for attack. I have not even tried to fly any of the Russian fighters in the game. Only other plane I have flown aside from the German planes is the P-47 because I love that thing. 

 

I tried to fight in the 190 with the same tactics as 109 but the 190 is MUCH more finicky when it comes to energy. That thing snap rolled on my like a sopwith camel and I found myself in a flat spin at 0 kph! That thing really wants to be flying at 500+kph! It cant turn inside anything. 

 

I still think the F4 is my fave version of the 109. Aside from the K model which is probably the best, you dont get to fly those much on the servers or even in the game. 

 

Thanks all for the feedback! German fighters have always been my fave!

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