Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Startrek66

Historical context fo MC 202

Recommended Posts

Hi guys.  I purchased the MC202 add on and would like to know if BOK can be the most suitable historical context.

Thanks 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/27/2019 at 1:57 AM, No457_Stonehouse said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macchi_C.202#Eastern_Front_operations

 

Look up 21 & 22 Gruppo. For sure there are better references than Wikipedia out there.

 

But you are right in thinking it was limited operations. Most of their service was in North Africa and the defence of Sicily and Italy.

Do you know any mission created for the Royal Air Force on the Russian front?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Only thing close that comes to mind is I believe there were some USAAF shuttle raids that hit a target over on the Eastern side of Third Reich territory and overnighted on a Russian airbase and then did another raid the next day and landed back in England. I think I recall the Russian base was within our map set but can't be sure. I'll try to find the info when I have a sec or probably someone else can provide/confirm it quicker. As Frankyboy mentioned for the RAF/RAAF you'd need new maps.

 

<edit> No I had misremembered. The airfields used were to the west of the Kuban map in Ukraine. However Allied command had planned to locate 3 full bomb groups in Soviet territory (but never did and discontinued the shuttle raids due to losses and attacks on the Ukrainian airfields) so I guess you could do hypothetical USAAF missions on Kuban without completely stretching the facts to breaking point.

Edited by No457_Stonehouse
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, No457_Stonehouse said:

Only thing close that comes to mind is I believe there were some USAAF shuttle raids that hit a target over on the Eastern side of Third Reich territory and overnighted on a Russian airbase and then did another raid the next day and landed back in England. I think I recall the Russian base was within our map set but can't be sure. I'll try to find the info when I have a sec or probably someone else can provide/confirm it quicker. As Frankyboy mentioned for the RAF/RAAF you'd need new maps.

 

<edit> No I had misremembered. The airfields used were to the west of the Kuban map in Ukraine. However Allied command had planned to locate 3 full bomb groups in Soviet territory (but never did and discontinued the shuttle raids due to losses and attacks on the Ukrainian airfields) so I guess you could do hypothetical USAAF missions on Kuban without completely stretching the facts to breaking point.

Excuse me, 

I meant to say Regia Areonautica Italiana. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the main point in time was Stalingrad. I think the outcome of this series of battles was a major disaster for the Italian air force units and the survivors were withdrawn afterwards. So probably you are looking at around 1942-early 43 and the Stalingrad map. Searches for the two Gruppo and Stalingrad and Operation Saturn should bring up info for you. I don't have any specific info about air operations sorry. Perhaps there are Italian language references out there and people to translate for you but unfortunately that isn't me.

Edited by No457_Stonehouse
spelling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For historical Mc 202 mission we don't have the right map in the game. The 21° Gruppo Autonomo that flew the Mc 202 was based near Millerovo, which is 300 km west of Stalingrad, outside the map area. Apparently there was just a single escort mission by Mc 202s to Stalingrad.

 

The Mc 200 would have been much more useful, because in Summer 1942 the units flying it operated from airfields at Tatsinskaya and Oblivskaya.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Juri_JS said:

For historical Mc 202 mission we don't have the right map in the game. The 21° Gruppo Autonomo that flew the Mc 202 was based near Millerovo, which is 300 km west of Stalingrad, outside the map area. Apparently there was just a single escort mission by Mc 202s to Stalingrad.

 

The Mc 200 would have been much more useful, because in Summer 1942 the units flying it operated from airfields at Tatsinskaya and Oblivskaya.

 

According to some sources, it is confirmed that the 21st CT group also operated from oblivskaja and this could be useful for placing the mc202 on the map of Bos.

 

During the German advance, in summer 1942, 21° Gruppo Autonomo C.T. transferred to Makeyevka airfield, and then to Voroshilovgrad and Oblivskaya. 

Edited by Startrek66

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

From Wikipedia: "On May 4, 1942, the 22nd Gruppo Autonomo Caccia Terrestri (Ground Fighters Autonomous Group), which had reached its operational limit, was replaced by the 21st, consisting of the 356ª, 382ª, 361ª and 386ª squadrons. The 21st, commanded by Major Ettore Foschini, brought with him 17 new Macchi fighters M.C. 202 and 18 new Macchi M.C. 200...

... In the summer of 1942, following the German advance, the 21st Group moved first to Makeyevka airport, and then to Tazinskaya, Voroshilovgrad and Oblivskaya airport. Italian pilots were increasingly asked to escort German planes ..."

The above is confirmed by Major Hozzel himself, commander of the StG. 2 that in the late summer of '42 at the time of the offensive on Kalach and then on Stalingrad, operated from the bases of Tacinskaya and Oblivskaya ("CONVERSATIONS WITH A STUKA PILOT"CONFERENCE FEATURING PAUL-WERNER HOZZEL BRIG. GENERAL (RET.)/ GERMAN AIR FORCE AT THE NATIONAL WAR COLLEGE NOVEMBER, 1978)
"Question: At the time when you had the Immelmann wing attacking the tanks just before Stalingrad, you had as many as 300 aircraft under your control?
General Hozzel: I had about 200. I had four groups of JU-87s, and those groups had about 40 to 45 aircraft—about 170 JU-87s, 15 ME-110s as reconnaissance and destroyer aircraft for fighter protection, and 15 Italian Macchis as part of that protection. So I had about 200."

Now, it is not sure that the 15 Macchis referred to by Paul-Werner Hozzel were "Folgore" and not "Saetta" (or perhaps both types), but - while there were certainly some MC-200s - it is however plausible that MC-202 operated, albeit very sporadically, as a escort fighters for the Stukas of the Geschwader Immelmann.
And in fact, in the campaign on the German advance of the late Summer of 1942 that I am working on in BoS, some missions see the MC-202s in the escort of the Ju-87s of Hozzel.

Edited by Alfaunostebas11
  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As I remember, MC 202 arrived in 21st Gruppo only on September 6th, 1942. SO before there were only Saettas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Indeed - as far as I could understand - the exact date of the arrival of the MC-202s in Russia is controversial. According to Wikipedia, when the 21st Group replaced the 22nd (maj 4, 1942), Major Foschini brought with him 17 MC.202 and 18 other MC-200.

In the "Short History of Italian Air Corps in Russia" we can read that between August and December 1942, 12 twin-engine BR-20 bombers and 12 MC-202 arrived.
According to other Italian sources, the Folgore arrived generically in the summer of 1942.
Interesting is the site www.valka.cz, according to which already on July 24, 1942 the Macchi 202 were present with the 355th Squadron, having as their initial base at Voroscilovgrad (present day Luhansk) which is a hundred km. west of the BoS map edge.

So, as I said, in the summer of 1942, at the time of the Axis's advance towards Kalach and the bend of the Don, while the presence of the MC-200s is sure, that of MC-202 in the Stalingrad scenario is very uncertain.
But, from my point of view, it might be plausible - even if not strictly historically proven and therefore with a slight chronological force ... - to insert some Folgore in some escort mission to German planes.

 

 

Edited by Alfaunostebas11

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...