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KB-Kriechbaum

We need limited rearward view in fighters!

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I use VR. I have a fixed seat. Yes at first it was difficult/not worth the discomfort to properly to check my six. Over time, I got more flexible from repeated stretching of my back and neck muscles while trying to check my six. It is now not that difficult. That said, I do think I would not be able to twist my torso like I do to to check if I had a harness on and tightened. 

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21 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Sure I can do that. My point is that I wouldn’t worry about the 180 owl neck because it isn’t an advantage. Why be worried that your opponent can snap view their headrest?

 

You're using a strawman argument here - I think the point being made by others is that the camera view should be able to be moved around, but limit it to the capabilities of a virtual spine. It would prevent people from using the 6dof freedom available to move the camera to unrealistic and extreme angles that are not possible in real life. This would also impact VR and hat switch users.   You've turned this into a argument about advantage, disadvantage, fairness etc. 

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10 minutes ago, [CPT]HawkeyeP said:

 

You're using a strawman argument here - I think the point being made by others is that the camera view should be able to be moved around, but limit it to the capabilities of a virtual spine. It would prevent people from using the 6dof freedom available to move the camera to unrealistic and extreme angles that are not possible in real life. This would also impact VR and hat switch users.   You've turned this into a argument about advantage, disadvantage, fairness etc. 

Well if it’s not about “advantage or fairness” then who cares? What’s the point?

If the head movement was handled more like DCS that would be great. But it’s not game killing if it’s not. 
What unrealistic and extreme angles are you on about? The only unrealistic and extreme thing you can do, again, is look straight back into your headrest. Why would I care if somebody else can do that?

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35 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Well if it’s not about “advantage or fairness” then who cares? What’s the point?

If the head movement was handled more like DCS that would be great. But it’s not game killing if it’s not. 
What unrealistic and extreme angles are you on about? The only unrealistic and extreme thing you can do, again, is look straight back into your headrest. Why would I care if somebody else can do that?

 

I'm generally with you on this. I don't think its a big issue.

 

That said, it is definitely not realistic that we are turning around as far as allowed in game to look if we are talking about a pilot strapped in tightly to his harness. For the sake of fair and reasoned argument I think this is important to point out. 

 

That said, what's to say the pilot hasn't loosed the straps to have superior rearward view (similar to the removal of the headrest on the 109 which was uncommon.) If we consider this possibility, I think its generally good for game play and everything else if pilots have the ability to check their six without an arbitrary limit. 

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1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Well if it’s not about “advantage or fairness” then who cares? What’s the point?

If the head movement was handled more like DCS that would be great. But it’s not game killing if it’s not. 
What unrealistic and extreme angles are you on about? The only unrealistic and extreme thing you can do, again, is look straight back into your headrest. Why would I care if somebody else can do that?

 

If you haven't played around and seen some of the more extreme viewing angles you can get with TiR, then maybe you should. Maybe you're simply unaware of what is possible and thus think people are arguing for no reason.  Either way, that's a moot point. As stated earlier in this thread - the dev appears to have previously mentioned the possibility of human spine physiology - and it's very likely it would be a toggle that server owners or SP players could toggle. No need to vehemently argue against people asking for that functionality as a suggestion. 

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1 hour ago, SCG_Wulfe said:

That said, what's to say the pilot hasn't loosed the straps to have superior rearward view

I don’t imagine pilots had themselves strapped in tightly for this reason, look at the video examples. The only account I’ve read referring to this was WWI where yes, they did not belt in tightly, in some cases not at all 😮 because not being able to look around was probably more dangerous to your health than falling out of your plane. 

38 minutes ago, [CPT]HawkeyeP said:

As stated earlier in this thread - the dev appears to have previously mentioned the possibility of human spine physiology

Which would be better ie like DCS. I can’t imagine silly limits or server settings. This game doesn’t need more of those and if it’s done right nobody will have a problem with it. Again because it would actually make looking around easier. 

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12 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Well if it’s not about “advantage or fairness” then who cares? What’s the point?

This is the gamer in you speaking. In the initial post it was stated, that this topic doesn't adress the gamers, but the simmers.

Otherwise you could just remove the entire cockpit for everybody, it would be fair. So why have a cockpit, right? What's the point?

Well here comes the point : More immersion, it's what simulations are trying to bring to the customers. Any feature in the game that provides a more realistic air combat experience is there for a reason. There are constant changes towards that goal for a reason, too.

 

Regarding the edge-blur:

You already know that people would hate it, before you even know how that could or would look like. 

 

I can imagine you are also saying that the g-force blur or the injury blur are features "people would hate". Maybe what you really mean is "gamers would hate it."

Don't get me wrong. There is nothing wrong with being more on the arcade- side of things, it's just not the topic for those people. 

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SharpeXB, do you even play online? I dont see any stats unless you're ACG_Sharpe.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Fern said:

SharpeXB, do you even play online? I dont see any stats unless you're ACG_Sharpe.

No I don’t play online very much. Mostly because MP is very poorly designed and attended but that’s another topic. 
If you think that you’ve got too much head movement in SP then just set your own TrackIR curve for what you think is right. 

6 hours ago, KB-Kriechbaum said:

Regarding the edge-blur:

You already know that people would hate it, before you even know how that could or would look like.

It sounds like a really bad idea IMO. Your eyes have independent fields of view regardless which direction your head is turned (per the image below) why would you simulate this when looking in one particular direction and not others? And you’re somehow trying to simulate stereoscopic vision on a 2D monitor. That’s not feasible. Why blur the edges of the screen when looking back? Why not in any other direction? Sims like this have enough visibility issues without making things worse by blurring the edges of the screen. And the vision you see out of one eye isn’t blurry, it just lacks depth perception, which you can’t simulate on a 2D screen. 

On 12/25/2019 at 7:11 PM, KB-Kriechbaum said:

 

I think it would make sense to put some kind of more oe less smooth braking effect on the heads movement when turning around and to slightly

Altering the head movement would make VR player sick

400975D0-8816-43A7-84E6-2F0B39F28A91.png

Edited by SharpeXB

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23 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

No I don’t play online very much. Mostly because MP is very poorly designed and attended but that’s another topic.

 

Ok, but that's what were arguing to improve here. If you played more MP,  you would know that the owl necking ruins a lot of your bounces. It ruins the the MP dynamic like Tripwire stated. That's all. Play MP more and you'll understand.

 

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Fern said:

 

Ok, but that's what were arguing to improve here. If you played more MP,  you would know that the owl necking ruins a lot of your bounces. It ruins the the MP dynamic like Tripwire stated. That's all. Play MP more and you'll understand.

 

I play enough MP to know how it is. And if you changed the head mechanic to be physiologically correct it would actually making checking six easier. It’s always easier for players in a game to be more aware than they would have been IRL. They aren’t exhausted on long missions or physically tired operating a real aircraft. They’re sitting in a comfy chair looking at a computer screen.

Also if you do the bounce correctly you should be coming up under the target where they can’t see you. 

Edited by SharpeXB

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18 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

And if you changed the head mechanic to be physiologically correct it would actually making checking six easier.

 

On what basis?  I respectfully 100% disagree but would love to hear how you feel this is the case.

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20 minutes ago, [CPT]HawkeyeP said:

 

On what basis?  I respectfully 100% disagree but would love to hear how you feel this is the case.

Do you have DCS?

in iL-2 in order to check six (with a TrackIR) you need to turn and lean. If you don’t lean you’ll look straight back into the headrest. 

in DCS you only need to turn your head and your view leans automatically like it would in reality and you see over your shoulder and around the headrest. 
in DCS to look at high 6:00 you make the same motion as the real pilot does ie a turn and look up, which is actually easier and even has less of a chance of losing your head tracking. It was possible in RoF and early DCS to simply look up until you saw the tail of your plane which is obviously impossible IRL. DCS fixed this at some point to model the head turn correctly. What you get there is exactly the motions you see in the videos posted. But it’s still possible in DCS and IRL to look behind you. That should be obvious from the videos. 

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I do have DCS, yes.  In terms of theoretical spinal modeling - I don't want the camera to automatically lean for me. I'd simply like it to restrain the camera to an area that is physically possible (including the ability to move the upper body forward like "loose straps" and still look back).  I think you might be muddying up the discussion with a minimal statement like "It'll be easier" without qualifying that you also imply auto leaning such as DCS. 

 

What most people here want (From what I read) is to prevent the ability of someone to have a camera angle that would only be possible if the pilot was unbuckled, turned around, sitting on their knees with their head jammed up to the edge of the cockpit behind the headrest - and even then just have it as an option for "expert" mode servers or single player gameplay. You, as a SP only type of player would not be forced into using it and can keep your game as you desire. No much different then say labels, external view, or different spotting modes. Simply an option for increasing immersion. 

 

(I haven't watch any of the above videos, but I am a pilot and spend plenty time in 2 seat tandems.. I know what I can see when I look around with straps tight or loose.) 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, [CPT]HawkeyeP said:

What most people here want (From what I read) is to prevent the ability of someone to have a camera angle that would only be possible if the pilot was unbuckled, turned around, sitting on their knees with their head jammed up to the edge of the cockpit behind the headrest

Look at the Biggin Hill video. Even in a 109 that pilot is able to turn and look around behind him as much as we can do in a sim, perhaps more like DCS though. But that ability isn’t as limited as people keep assuming. 

2 hours ago, [CPT]HawkeyeP said:

 I don't want the camera to automatically lean for me. I'd simply like it to restrain the camera to an area that is physically possible (including the ability to move the upper body forward like "loose straps" and still look back)

You can make a TrackIR profile do whatever you want it to. And that’s the problem with trying to put too much control on this, people could set the device to be as sensitive as they want. I don’t quite understand what you mean by “don't want the camera to automatically lean for me.” because then it sound like you DO want an owl neck. 

2 hours ago, [CPT]HawkeyeP said:

just have it as an option for "expert" mode servers

This game doesn’t have enough players online to afford more server side settings. 

3 hours ago, [CPT]HawkeyeP said:

You, as a SP only type of player

I’m a mostly SP player but I do play online occasionally. Like most people I want the same settings used in both modes.

Edited by SharpeXB

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You don't have any stats listed on WoL, Combat Box or TAW - thus I highly doubt you ever play online, or really know much about server population.

It's obvious you don't read posts or fully comprehend them. You use poor strawman arguments, and don't make very cohesive points.

I suspect you enjoy shouting at clouds for the fun of it too? 

 

Have a good day.

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, [CPT]HawkeyeP said:

I highly doubt you ever play online, or really know much about server population.

See on my tag where it says “Founder”? I’ve been playing this sim online and offline since the very beginning. 

Edited by SharpeXB

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Limiting the rear view would be awesome,I hope it will be done......

This must then be set by the server in multiplayer,

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4 hours ago, III./ZG1_Angus said:

Limiting the rear view would be awesome,I hope it will be done......

This must then be set by the server in multiplayer,

No it wouldn’t. And “make it a server setting” isn’t a good answer for every thing that people can’t agree on. There aren’t enough players online for all those settings to be feasible and it makes the game too complicated. 
Plus limiting the view is just plain unrealistic looking at the video examples. 

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just because there are not enough online ??? that's why it shouldn't be done?

I don't care if there are more single players !

 

and yes. it would ........ I hope it comes

 

no no no ..... i don't want that is not the solution

 

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10 minutes ago, III./ZG1_Angus said:

just because there are not enough online ??? that's why it shouldn't be done?

Many times there is only a single server with any players on it. So it’s not feasible to provide multiple options like that. 

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For those of you who can speak spanish (if not prob google translator is your friend) read this article. Is a translation from a ww2 vvs manual about fighter tactics and address the limitation of pilot view in the cockpit.

http://www.rkka.es/Manuales/003_manuales_tacticas/002_manual_tacticas_caza/002_busqueda_enemigo.htm

 

That shows why mouse/hat switch/tir is quite unrealistic compared to real life. Looking behind is not just about being physically able to look at your six but what part of your vision you use when doing it and the strain you impose in your body and eye balls in order to achieve it. 

 

I think the discussion is not about whether it is physically possible to look behind while sitting in a real cockpit but the degree of visual acuity you get and the effort it takes. In trackir/switch hat, you are using your central fovea to look at your six (you look almost straight at your monitor) while, in real life, you have to use your peripheral vision. Also, while in the sim you can fly looking at your six quite comfortably for a long time (many minutes if you wish), in real life you are limited to just a few seconds at a time because of strain to your body/eye balls muscles.

 

Even the video that showed how a VR user was looking to his six is a bit misleading as, by watching it, you are looking straight at your monitor while the VR user of the video was probably using his/her peripheral vision (a bit of apples to oranges experience comparison).

 

The problem, as often, is how to translate this limitations to the sim in a meaningful way. With the current technology, probably very difficult task without getting into new problems. The VR is probably the best approximation that we have at the moment but, obviously not something you can impose to everyone.

 

So, in my opinion, it is true that unrestricted vision as we have now makes combat less realistic (because enhances SA) but I don't see any easy solution to fix it unless everyone makes the jump to VR (and even with that, the system could be abused).

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Oft gibt es nur einen Server, auf dem sich Spieler befinden. Es ist auch nicht machbar, mehrere Optionen wie diese zur Verfügung zu stellen. 

everything is possible if you only want to.....

They are rarely online, why are they so much against it

No resources should be wasted in multiplayer, now I understand your problem

Edited by III./ZG1_Angus

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when I'm VR I don't even try to look back,because it's too exhausting !

and when I'm on TrackIR it's so ridiculously easy

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5 hours ago, HR_Zunzun said:

That shows why mouse/hat switch/tir is quite unrealistic compared to real life. Looking behind is not just about being physically able to look at your six but what part of your vision you use when doing it and the strain you impose in your body and eye balls in order to achieve it. 

 

I think the discussion is not about whether it is physically possible to look behind while sitting in a real cockpit but the degree of visual acuity you get and the effort it takes. In trackir/switch hat, you are using your central fovea to look at your six (you look almost straight at your monitor) while, in real life, you have to use your peripheral vision. Also, while in the sim you can fly looking at your six quite comfortably for a long time (many minutes if you wish), in real life you are limited to just a few seconds at a time because of strain to your body/eye balls muscles.

 

There’s no way to simulate this strain and effort in a game,  Also it is possible to use your foveal vision to look sideways because your eyeballs rotate. Seriously this discussion is hilarious because you have to explain to people how their own head and eyes work. Sit in your car and look backwards... try it out. 

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Posted (edited)

There should also be no way to simulate this strain and effort in a game.

only a limitation of the 6 not completely visible ..........

and yes, the discussion is funny 😎

Edited by III./ZG1_Angus

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It’s amazing that this discussion has to keep going on after this was posted

 

AF04997D-D05C-4B88-8932-83E78A1253EE.jpeg

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s amazing that this discussion has to keep going on after this was posted

 

It is more amazing that you are still around, although you are not interested in changing anything about the view. :)

 

BTW, this guy  from your picture does look more UP, not straight back along the axis of the fuselage.

 

If you cannot see the details, no wonder that you cannot grasp what people are actually talking about here.

 

 

Again, since you struggle to understand:

 

Can you turn around in your fighter cockpit and look straight back from above your instrument panel? 

Can you look out of your left rearward window with your head turned right?

Can you lift your eyes 1 cm below the canopy and look over your headrest? 

 

And while doing that, you think you would still be able to actually control the airplane?

 

You are so baffled about why people want a more realistic camera movement, you might as well be baffled by people wanting a realistic flight or damage model.

 

"Why the heck does everybody want realism in this simulation? They must be insane!" 

 

Edited by KB-Kriechbaum
typo
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9 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s amazing that this discussion has to keep going on after this was posted

 

AF04997D-D05C-4B88-8932-83E78A1253EE.jpeg

 

Well, this picture pretty much proves my point.

The guy in the picture is straining his torso and his neck muscles. He is also straining his eye ball muscles and you can see that where he is looking with his left eye is not reaching with the right one because is blocked by his nose. Try to keep this posture for a long time compare to turning only your neck a few degrees in your regular trackir or not even that in a hat switch. Try to do a meaninful scan of your six o´clock sky while keeping this picture and pick up a tiny dot (a contact) while looking like that. It is imposible. If you read on the linked I posted, it is explained very well. That is why in the VVS (real people in ww2 dealing with this problem) considered the 20º (on each side) of your six o´clock as a blind spot, and the further 30º only visible with a lot of effort of your body muscles (torso, neck and eye balls).

 

You can do an experiment very easy. Get a text that you can read more or less easy in front of you (like this forum text) and seat  as far as you can read it easily. Then turn your chair around 180 degrees and then try to read it again while looking at your back (simulating the same position as you were strap like the guy in the picture). You can easy tell there is a world size diference (you can´t read the text easily or at all). Looking behind in your car for parking is not the same as searching for a contact in a plane cockpit while holding your stick, throtle and rudder in position.

 

This is the same reason while companys are expending a lot of money on VR to develop a technique called foveated rendering. They know that you have much less visual acuity outside of your central 10º vision so it is a posible to degrade the quality of the image outside of that cone without you noticing (and this lower gpu power needed a lot).

 

It is irrelevant (for my point) whether it is, currently, possible or not to simulate this in the sim. This difference exists and it effects the virtual combat compared to reality (because it gives players a huge boost in SA). I know it and accept it. What I do not accept it is the notion that looking straight at your monitor is the same as looking behind your back. If you take the time to read the article I posted, it basically explain those concepts and limitations and why flying formation was so crucial for maintaing good SA.

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1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Es ist erstaunlich, dass diese Diskussion fortgesetzt werden muss, nachdem dies veröffentlicht wurde

 

AF04997D-D05C-4B88-8932-83E78A1253DE.jpeg

yes amazing ...... after this picture it is not possible to see the direct 6

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3 hours ago, HR_Zunzun said:

It is irrelevant (for my point) whether it is, currently, possible or not to simulate this in the sim.

It is relevant because there is no way a PC game played on a monitor can simulate these limitations. So why worry about it?

3 hours ago, KB-Kriechbaum said:

BTW, this guy  from your picture does look more UP, not straight back along the axis of the fuselage.

Right but there’s no need to look in that direction because you’re looking straight into your headrest. So why worry about it?

Even if you put limits so that it’s not possible to see 190d behind you, players can still see behind them. The change you’re talking about isn’t very much of a difference. And it’s always going to be easy to do this with a snap view or head tracking. 

3 hours ago, KB-Kriechbaum said:

You are so baffled about why people want a more realistic camera movement,

I’m not against having more realistic head and neck movement. It would actually make moving like this in the game easier if your head automatically peeked around the headrest instead of doing a 180. But it’s a false assumption that a pilot cannot see behind them. 

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I specifically have my TrackIR curves set up so that I can't easily look 180 back, but rather, have to do a little bit of leaning past the headrest edges to look straight back.  

I find that if I use a setting that allows me to use a full 180, there a chance the view will get pinned there when urgent motion like tracking an enemy weaving left and right behind me happens.

I'm all for the cockpits having some restriction to the back for TrackIR.  I'd probably be able to set the curves a lot more sensitive and be able to look left and right even faster than I can reasonably do now.  

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

The change you’re talking about isn’t very much of a difference. And it’s always going to be easy to do this with a snap view or head tracking. 

 

Its a difference when you don't see the plane behind you because your view is obstructed. Because you see less when you cannot turn 180 degrees and put your point of view 1 cm away from the canopy glass in any direction. You will agree that it is a huge difference in a fight to see a plane vs. not to see it.

 

It is not going to be easy to do it when the game restricts your freedom of movement. Same as you cannot move your camera out of the cockpit unless your canopy is open, the game is determining your freedom of movement according to certain variables. Variables can be changed. So you are wrong. It is the opposite of being right.

 

You are stating that it is "always going to be easy". How is it "always" possible when the game restricts it. You could have also said: "Its always possible to pull 9G". Guess what, not when the game says you can't! 

 

Look, nobody says "you cannot see being you in a real plane".

 

But you cannot see dead six in a real fighter cockpit. Now look at this screenshot. That is not even the maximum you could achieve with the current freedom of movement.

 

image.png.4ea9a059a287f57e383dd3d6e442c2c8.png

 

Also, look at this video,  if you still don't see the difference between what we have in the game vs. what people want regarding freedom of camera movement (from the 1:40 mark on he tries to look back) : 

 

Edited by KB-Kriechbaum
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21 hours ago, HR_Zunzun said:

 

That is why in the VVS (real people in ww2 dealing with this problem) considered the 20º (on each side) of your six o´clock as a blind spot, and the further 30º only visible with a lot of effort of your body muscles (torso, neck and eye balls).

 

 

exactly.

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Even now that you see dead 6 more or less easily with TIR, people still get snuck up on and shot down like they‘re tourists. I have never been in an attack where i was thinking „damn if he couldn‘t just look dead 6 that easy, i could have gotten the kill“. Not once. And i happen to sneak up on a lot of guys and be successful. If he sees you dead 6, you messed up by being too high on approach.

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4 hours ago, KB-Kriechbaum said:

But you cannot see dead six in a real fighter cockpit. Now look at this screenshot. That is not even the maximum you could achieve with the current freedom of movement.

 

image.png.4ea9a059a287f57e383dd3d6e442c2c8.png

 

Even if you limit the view to what’s shown in this screenshot, it’s still going to be much easier to see this view in a game vs real life with all the effort required. And there’s no way to simulate that effort. So maybe stop worrying about it. 

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1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

Even if you limit the view to what’s shown in this screenshot, it’s still going to be much easier to see this view in a game vs real life with all the effort required. And there’s no way to simulate that effort. So maybe stop worrying about it. 

 

At this point i have to assume you are trolling :) Have fun. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, IV./JG51-H_Stiglitz said:

Even now that you see dead 6 more or less easily with TIR, people still get snuck up on and shot down like they‘re tourists. I have never been in an attack where i was thinking „damn if he couldn‘t just look dead 6 that easy, i could have gotten the kill“. Not once. And i happen to sneak up on a lot of guys and be successful. If he sees you dead 6, you messed up by being too high on approach.

This. The ability to see six easily hasn’t prevented me from being ambushed more times than I can count. If someone attacks you cold six there’s no way to see them regardless of what the game lets you do with your head. 

1 hour ago, KB-Kriechbaum said:

 

At this point i have to assume you are trolling :) Have fun. 

Not every response you don’t agree with is “trolling”

 

And there is no way to accomplish what you’re asking for in the game anyways. 
Putting a dead zone or limit on the TrackIR would cause it to lose sync with your head movement. The only way the device can work smoothly without constantly needing to be re centered is for it to always track your head. That’s certainly why the game is the way it is. It’s better for the device to allow more range of movement than less. 

Edited by SharpeXB
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On 1/2/2020 at 1:57 PM, [CPT]HawkeyeP said:

 

You're using a strawman argument here - I think the point being made by others is that the camera view should be able to be moved around, but limit it to the capabilities of a virtual spine. It would prevent people from using the 6dof freedom available to move the camera to unrealistic and extreme angles that are not possible in real life. This would also impact VR and hat switch users.   You've turned this into a argument about advantage, disadvantage, fairness etc. 

If that’s the case then I vote for limiting players to two virtual hand only, that way they can only do so many things at one time instead of being able to do things that weren’t possible with only two hands.

 

The game will never be fair, people have too many different setups/controls for the devs to limit things like this. 

Imo players should just learn to live with it, it’s really not that much of an advantage.

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On 1/10/2020 at 10:15 PM, Legioneod said:

If that’s the case then I vote for limiting players to two virtual hand only, that way they can only do so many things at one time instead of being able to do things that weren’t possible with only two hands

Yes, why not. Create your thread about that. Not impossible to do. Simply have some actions block other actions. For instance changing flaps/elevator setting in 109 would block your ability to change throttle. If you do it simultanously, throttle will change after you release flaps button. Simple. 

 

Its amazing how many people find all sorts of things "impossible". 😄 If these people lived in 1880, they would call cars impossible, in 1900 they would call planes impossible. In 1930 they would call "landing on the moon" impossible. In 1995 they would call VR impossible. List goes on. 

 

On 1/10/2020 at 10:15 PM, Legioneod said:

The game will never be fair, people have too many different setups/controls for the devs to limit things like this. 

Imo players should just learn to live with it, it’s really not that much of an advantage.


This is not about fairness, its about limiting movement of POV for increased immersion. "IMPOSSIBLE" you say? ...yeah, totally impossible.

How come its possible to limit the POV to the inside of the cockpit? Must be a miracle. 🙂 How come when you open the canopy, you suddenly have increased limits of camera position? Also a miracle. 

 

Other games have different limits to rearward view. But here in IL2? Impossible! 

 

When you implement limits, nobody can go over those limits. How hard to grasp is that? Not with VR, not with TIR, not with snap views. 

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