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ACG_Kriechbaum

We need limited rearward view in fighters!

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Hi folks, 

 

This post goes to the people that are more sim interested and less of a gamer. It might also be of interest to the VR-guys among you. 

 

(If you are the typical gamer, this thread is probably not interesting to you).

 

Rearward view from fighters

 

In the current game, you can turn around like a robot and fly any maneuver comfortably with your neck turned around 180 degrees. 

 

A human pilot would encounter some rather unpleasant obstacles doing that, mainly the straps, the limitations of a neck, the G-forces while having the head turned all the way back. 

 

I think it would make sense to put some kind of more oe less smooth braking effect on the heads movement when turning around and to slightly blur the respective edge of the screen when it points to the rear to imitate the usual peripheral view you get when you look all the way back. 

 

Would be also fairer towards VR - guys. 

 

Thoughts? 

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No way to do it.  The game cannot control how TrackIR works, for example. 

 

Also, and no offense, the word "fair" has no place in a simulation, there is only correct or incorrect.

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21 minutes ago, KB-Kriechbaum said:

Would be also fairer towards VR - guys. 

I play with a head tracker and man, its painful. I love it and hate it at the same time: yeah its nice for X/Y/Z translation but for roll and yaw movement, it makes me feel dizzy and uncomfortable.

So I dont think we have an "advantage" over VR people, IMO.

 

I never tried VR tho so I maybe cant jugde accordingly

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Buy one of these, you will be able to "Owl Neck VR style" in comfort. 😉

 

 

757606150_1_720x928.jpg

Edited by bzc3lk
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Take the wheels of that lovely chair if you are a Rudder Pedal user so you don't boot scoot out of the way every time you want to use your rudders. 👍

 

Personally, I prefer my VR chair with lower back for head turning clearance.

Edited by blitze
another brian fart

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9 hours ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

I play with a head tracker and man, its painful. I love it and hate it at the same time: yeah its nice for X/Y/Z translation but for roll and yaw movement, it makes me feel dizzy and uncomfortable.

So I dont think we have an "advantage" over VR people, IMO.

 

I never tried VR tho so I maybe cant jugde accordingly

 

Owning both VR and TrackIR, there is 100% an advantage to rearward visibility with TrackIR over VR. You can snap from side to side and all angles rearward with speed you cannot match in VR. That said, VR is still a billion times more immersive and I stick with it despite the disadvantages while playing online. 

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agree with hawk eye

 

ive used track ir since fb had vr about a year now.  Its much easier flying with track ir but the enjoyment flying in vr  far outweighs this.

 

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I dont know about VR. But what about snap Views?

Should we take them off too?

 

I might have my track ir setup wrong, I like to have more fine control on my camera mouvment, so for me to look all the way back,I'm looking with the edge of my View towsrds the monitor, but looking under at the i16 dashboard to see all the gauges is a PITA, easily solved by pressing a DEFAULT  key to look at the dashboard.

The same works to look 180 degrees back, and it's position and zoom adjustable.

 

And also you can have a button to reset track ir/vr

So you can look 45 deg to the left. Reset. Look 45 deg to the right and the end result is 90deg...

While some play with full HOTAS and others with just joystick with twist rudder,  and with VR vs small monitor vs big TV, it Will never be "fair"

 

 

Also. I would like to have a setting, so all who play MP should have "forced" 250-300 ping, for fairnes to everyone outside usa/europe

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I fly mostly VR and am totally fine with not having a owl neck while others do. 
Cramped pit’s , and strapped to the chair pilots did have limited view backward. I have seen a lot of pictures from different lw fighters that had mirrors in them. I feel this game need a mirror mod. Because many did field mod one

Edited by No.322_LuseKofte
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Oh my, this thread certainly will open a can of worms lol.

There have been others like it in the past...

 

I will only say I love the realism that VR provides along with the 1:1 tracking and would not change it for anything.

I would also not change monitor flyers abilities either.  Both types have their advantages and disadvantages, and I am sure everyone understands them.

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42 minutes ago, dburne said:

Oh my, this thread certainly will open a can of worms lol.

There have been others like it in the past...

 

I will only say I love the realism that VR provides along with the 1:1 tracking and would not change it for anything.

I would also not change monitor flyers abilities either.  Both types have their advantages and disadvantages, and I am sure everyone understands them.

 

Yes, but by your own admission you fly offline almost exclusively do you not?

 

Online, I get frustrated with attempted bounces failing due to the owl in the cockpit I am attacking. It changes dynamics of MP combat. You have to approach from really low 6 to avoid being spotted by the owls. You can see a VR user. They kick the rudder to check 6.

 

I get bounced all the time. It's hard work checking six in VR and you get lazy. Still I don't want any head turning view assistance or fake snap views. I run a non swivel chair. Having a hard time checking 6 was a part of WW2 combat. Looking perfectly out of the top rear corner of the cockpit with your butt raised off your seat was not.

 

 

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as a trackir and VR user, I don't begrudge players with owl neck abilities or users using snap views.

 

all have their pros and cons.

 

what I hate is everyone (AI included) exploiting the game by using their guns on me when I'm THE HERO!!!!  i should be invincible. ;)

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8 minutes ago, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

 

Yes, but by your own admission you fly offline almost exclusively do you not?

 

Online, I get frustrated with attempted bounces failing due to the owl in the cockpit I am attacking. It changes dynamics of MP combat. You have to approach from really low 6 to avoid being spotted by the owls. You can see a VR user. They kick the rudder to check 6.

 

I get bounced all the time. It's hard work checking six in VR and you get lazy. Still I don't want any head turning view assistance or fake snap views. I run a non swivel chair. Having a hard time checking 6 was a part of WW2 combat. Looking perfectly out of the top rear corner of the cockpit with your butt raised off your seat was not.

 

 

I run VR in a cramped place naking it near to impossible checking six too often. 
wile I get your point it was never a problem before VR. 
This is why I think when about 40% of online users are on VR maybe. It is wrong to start restricting non VR users  

mostly because for many VR is not obtainable. 
If they have to buy a new pc in order to run it price is astronomical. 
I rather want to be able to have mirrors in all planes. There are so many pictures of added mirrors in planes not originally having them. 
it will bring a fair chance to all. 
 

1B989757-51E1-427D-9FC3-D0B6CDEB6BA0.jpeg

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1 minute ago, OrLoK said:

i should be invincible.

Invincibility ends with 30mm to the cockpit ;) i agree tho, that TrackIR makes checking 6 very very easy. I‘m using it currently but been thinking about getting a good Vr headset in the future. I‘m curious of how that will feel.

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3 minutes ago, No.322_LuseKofte said:

I run VR in a cramped place naking it near to impossible checking six too often. 
wile I get your point it was never a problem before VR. 
This is why I think when about 40% of online users are on VR maybe. It is wrong to start restricting non VR users  

mostly because for many VR is not obtainable. 
If they have to buy a new pc in order to run it price is astronomical. 
I rather want to be able to have mirrors in all planes. There are so many pictures of added mirrors in planes not originally having them. 
it will bring a fair chance to all. 
 

1B989757-51E1-427D-9FC3-D0B6CDEB6BA0.jpeg

 

I love your throttle... Did you make this yourself??

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2 minutes ago, IV./JG51-H_Stiglitz said:

‘m curious of how that will feel.


My first feeling was WOW is the IL 2 that big

I had to go VR in order to maintain interest of flying. Like a compensation for lack of complexity. In DCS I still feel like multiple screen and panels make the best pilot expirience. But in BOX it is amazing

2 minutes ago, Badders46_VR said:

love your throttle... Did you make this yourself??

It is a cessna Bobcat bomber trainer throttle from 1942 connecting to sliders. It replicate most planes from that era very well. And it is placed in the same place as you see throttle in A20 Ju 87 abd many other

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12 hours ago, KB-Kriechbaum said:

...

 

Rearward view from fighters

 

In the current game, you can turn around like a robot and fly any maneuver comfortably with your neck turned around 180 degrees. 

 

A human pilot would encounter some rather unpleasant obstacles doing that, mainly the straps, the limitations of a neck, the G-forces while having the head turned all the way back. 

 

I think it would make sense to put some kind of more oe less smooth braking effect on the heads movement when turning around and to slightly blur the respective edge of the screen when it points to the rear to imitate the usual peripheral view you get when you look all the way back. 

 

Would be also fairer towards VR - guys. 

 

Thoughts? 

 

Over a year ago the devs said they wanted to create a basic spine + neck physiology for the virtual pilots to address this issue.

 

Not heard anything about it since.

 

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1 hour ago, No.322_LuseKofte said:


My first feeling was WOW is the IL 2 that big

I had to go VR in order to maintain interest of flying. Like a compensation for lack of complexity. In DCS I still feel like multiple screen and panels make the best pilot expirience. But in BOX it is amazing

It is a cessna Bobcat bomber trainer throttle from 1942 connecting to sliders. It replicate most planes from that era very well. And it is placed in the same place as you see throttle in A20 Ju 87 abd many other

Looks incredible! 👍🏻

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To all the guys giving tips how to check six by sitting on a turning seat etc. , well facepalm 😅 you are literally giving tips on how to get an advantage by killing immersion. The main point is not so much to make it fair for VR-players. It just would be a nice side effect.

 

I was aware that a lot of people look at this from the gamers perspective, who will always choose performance over realism. Transparent cockpit would totally make it easier for you to check six btw. 

 

The thing is, as many fully understand, you cannot check six in a fighter plane of ww2 with ease. Try to look back without turning your shoulders much, and then try to identify a small spot as an enemy plane at the most rearward spot you can see. 

 

In real life, not having somebody check your six for you was a real risk. In il2 you can fly your little camera drone around your cockpit. Like your neck is a long tube and your head is the size of an apple. 😃

 

Just as the new blackouts change the way dogfights look like, this would also change the way dogfights would look like. Cool for simmer, but maybe not cool for gamers. 

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Oh please not this topic again...

 

Have any of you driven a car and looked back from your seat as you back up?

Pilots can do the same thing 

Why do you think aircraft designs changed to have blister canopies like the P-51D vs the B and P-47D vs the Razorback? Why does the P-40 have those cutouts behind the hood?

 

It would be better though if IL-2 had a realistic neck turn like DCS and not the Owl Neck which actually makes it harder to look back because you’re looking into your headrest. 

81355B1F-F0B3-4C31-A605-8B93F32E80E2.jpeg

5 hours ago, blitze said:

Take the wheels of that lovely chair if you are a Rudder Pedal user so you don't boot scoot out of the way every time you want to use your rudders.

Try this! It works great

 

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18 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Oh please not this topic again...

Feel free not to follow topics you do not wish to see. 😉

 

18 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Have any of you driven a car and looked back from your seat as you back up?

Pilots can do the same thing 

Why do you think aircraft designs changed to have blister canopies like the P-51D vs the B and P-47D vs the Razorback? Why does the P-40 have those cutouts behind the hood?

I don't know what car you are driving, but i doubt it will be as cramped as a 109 or spit, etc. + try to look back with both hands on the wheel.

 

Nobody says, it should be impossible to look back. All I say is that it should be limited. You actually said that you like it better in DLC, so we ask for the same thing more or less. 

 

Also, it could be modeled according to the space the respective cockpits offer. 

The one you showed in the picture is a modern plane with a way larger cockpit than a ww2-fighter, which is also a result of lessons learned before. 

 

Does the current camera movement allow for better rearward view? Yes. 

Is it realistic? No. 

 

Especially the lifting out of the seat - thing in combination with the non - existent boundaries if a human head. I want to see a guy in a real 109 looking over the headrest armor. 😃

 

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9:19 mark on-wards (of course, in a dogfight situation, you'd probably/possibly? have your shoulder straps tightly adjusted, although you might ignore them if your leg straps are tight)

 

Later edit: actually, if you look at 10:52, you'll see that the pilot is looking dead six and then he does a roll. He doesn't seem to tighten any straps before that. So, it seems it's possible to look dead six in a 109, and also do (some) maneuvers afterwards.

 

 

There is one big difference in what the pilot is doing in reality and what is done in game. In reality he's moving his whole upper body to be able to look behind. In game you can just pivot the camera quickly, effortlessly from one side to the other.

 

20 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Have any of you driven a car and looked back from your seat as you back up?

 

Do you have shoulder straps in your car? Do you dogfight with your car?

Edited by Raven109
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In that picture, he looks directly behind and above the tail section - there is no plate armour in 109g4 red 7 making it a lot simpler.

Again, if this was a Track IR player, his head would be glued up at the top corner of the cockpit.

 

 

image.thumb.png.7dee6bb5f1850748d572d98b012c9363.png

 

Edited by =EXPEND=Tripwire

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It would be like trying to turn and look behind you in a race car.. (not possible) 

Dont matter much many of the "Aces" even with Track IR
Have view hat also bound on joystick hat so it has instant Rearward view without having to move head at all and it returns to same spot track ir was looking. 

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17 minutes ago, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

In that picture, he looks directly behind and above the tail section - there is no plate armour in 109g4 red 7 making it a lot simpler.

Again, if this was a Track IR player, his head would be glued up at the top corner of the cockpit.

 

It's a movie clip, look at the marks I've mentioned. If you're a tall pilot, your head could be glued to most corners of the canopy. But that would be the exception. My post was addressing (and partially confirming) what the original poster was pointing out - turning around is not that easy in reality, let alone during combat. 

 

 

 

Edited by Raven109

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Soviet pilots sometimes flew without the shoulder straps in order to move better inside the cockpit, they knew it was a risk in the event of a hard landing but they still did it.

Edited by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

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2 hours ago, Raven109 said:

There is one big difference in what the pilot is doing in reality and what is done in game. In reality he's moving his whole upper body to be able to look behind. In game you can just pivot the camera quickly, effortlessly from one side to the other.

Perfect video example. Can we consider this topic solved now? And yes even the 109 has those clear canopy sections behind the pilots head so they can look through them. 

yes it’s more difficult to turn your body than clicking a hat switch but there’s no way to simulate that in a game. Unless you want force feedback VR headsets. 

If IL-2 modeled the head and neck physiology better like DCS it would actually make checking six easier because your head actually looks around the headrest and not straight into it. 

2 hours ago, Raven109 said:

 

Do you have shoulder straps in your car? Do you dogfight with your car?

Nobody on this forum looks back when backing up their car? 🤔

Ok I don’t anymore since cars have backup cameras. Maybe nobody does this anymore. Try it. It works. Just like the guy in the video. 

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If flying in VR find a good wingman its multiplayer thats the issue and the answer;). Team up with some one or join a squad(there are loads of good ones out there). Then try flying line abreast as a pair, not finger four(finger tip). The wingman flying between the 2-4 oclock or 10-8 oclock position and a good combat spread of 400m-800m max, it makes it a lot easier in VR as you only have to look left or right 90 degrees. You will see the bounce coming in, admittly not all the time, but I reckon it has worked atleast 95% I have used it. It really does add to the extra immersion that VR also brings. Get in to the habit of of saying clear when checking your wingmans six, so he knows its clear, you will soon find out if he has being doing it correctly if rounds start flying over your wing and he has just told you clear ;).

 

Have found since using VR you have to make adjustments to suit the viewing system to make it work smoother and better. Its come a long way from Hat switch/TrackIR viewing methods so you have to adjust for it. I know this does not answer for the single player flying online, but do you need to be alone on multiplayer ;).

Edited by Black-Bart

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On 12/26/2019 at 8:17 AM, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

 

Yes, but by your own admission you fly offline almost exclusively do you not?

 

Online, I get frustrated with attempted bounces failing due to the owl in the cockpit I am attacking. It changes dynamics of MP combat. You have to approach from really low 6 to avoid being spotted by the owls. You can see a VR user. They kick the rudder to check 6.

 

I get bounced all the time. It's hard work checking six in VR and you get lazy. Still I don't want any head turning view assistance or fake snap views. I run a non swivel chair. Having a hard time checking 6 was a part of WW2 combat. Looking perfectly out of the top rear corner of the cockpit with your butt raised off your seat was not.

 

 

 

 

Snap view should make the pilot pass out with the new effects

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On 12/26/2019 at 7:17 AM, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

Online, I get frustrated with attempted bounces failing due to the owl in the cockpit I am attacking. It changes dynamics of MP combat.

Nobody is forcing you to play in VR, if you feel that you’re at a disadvantage then that’s your own choice. It’s not reasonable to ask that every other player be handicapped in the game. 

On 12/27/2019 at 8:00 AM, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

Soviet pilots sometimes flew without the shoulder straps in order to move better inside the cockpit, they knew it was a risk in the event of a hard landing but they still did it.

I’m sure most pilots did. I’ve read an account at least in WWI that this was the practice. You’d have to weigh the risk of not tightening your straps with the risks on not being aware around you. The later was probably more dangerous. 

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On 12/27/2019 at 3:00 PM, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

Soviet pilots sometimes flew without the shoulder straps in order to move better inside the cockpit, they knew it was a risk in the event of a hard landing but they still did it.

I agree that shoulder straps don't hinder rearward view too much, as you can loosen shoulder straps to allow you to move your torso and they will still stop you from hitting the dash with your head. Also, straps can be tightened up within seconds i.e. before landing.

 

 

I'm using the Rift CV1 and I'm more impaired to check my six because of the narrow FOV compared to TrackIR or even real live. However, I’m okay with loosing a bit of that ability because VR offers other advantages, like precise head movement (tracking targets and looking around struts is a lot easier in VR than with a monitor). Being able to compare both sides, I think that TrackIR and VR is quite well balanced, both with their pros and cons. By restricting rear view for TrackIR this would tip the balance towards VR. So no, I don’t think that we need limited rear view in fighters. Interesting discussion thou.

 

 

Edited by ACG_crane

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1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s not reasonable to ask that every other player be handicapped in the game. 

 

It doesn't just change combat for VR players.

 

Two TrackIR players fighting each other have the same problem. Not having any rearward view restrictions changes combat. Sure both have the capability to turn and look at each other Linda Blair style, but the fight has changed to one that is less realistic.

 

 

 

 

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Maybe make an option to "loosen straps" / " tighten straps".

 

Loosen straps = less resistance to G's / more head bobbing when aiming  / less restriction to check six. Make the key unbindable.

 

Tighten straps = normal mode

 

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2 hours ago, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

 

It doesn't just change combat for VR players.

 

Two TrackIR players fighting each other have the same problem. Not having any rearward view restrictions changes combat. Sure both have the capability to turn and look at each other Linda Blair style, but the fight has changed to one that is less realistic.

The Linda Blair view isn’t even worthwhile because you’re looking into the headrest. If the head turn was modeled like DCS it would be more realistic and easier. 

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