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Game version 4.003 discussion: Improvements and Fixes.

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9 hours ago, Stummyhurt said:

Yes thank you so much , the iii/KG 51 fw 190 nightbomber career in bodenplatte gets up to 28.10.1944 then planes stop spawning and the career cant be advanced any further attached are photos of what happens when i try to start the enemy frontline strongpoint bombing mission at 20.30

 

check PM.

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wow, I guess Stalin solved his AA logistics problems, I'm getting utterly murdered in a hail of fiery death the moment i get anywhere near a train

😄

 

 

 

a070da1fd34635ad2edc47b8c7196b8b.jpg

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4 minutes ago, von_Michelstamm said:

wow, I guess Stalin solved his AA logistics problems, I'm getting utterly murdered in a hail of fiery death the moment i get anywhere near a train

😄

 

 

 

a070da1fd34635ad2edc47b8c7196b8b.jpg

The pain from the train arrives mainly on the plane

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On 12/19/2019 at 8:08 PM, =SqSq=Civilprotection said:

Found a bug maybe? I remember being able to open .msnbin files with the editor, but now it can only open the .Mission files. Maybe the feature was intentionally removed? It was super helpful to be able to download multiplayer missions and see how other people constructed their missions. Please tell me someone else remembers being able to do this.

 

Edit: I'm posting here because I think this is a very recent change.

 

well I can still open msnbin files - did it yesterday - when open file window just put *.* and it all appears then select one you want - working for me at least

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Bit late to the party, but any updates including the words "AI improvements" are so much appreciated. The amount of work that your small team accomplishes in such little time is awesome!

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Nice update. The AI is making really good progress. 
 

I hope the wind blowing around inside a closed canopy when leaning to either side is fixed soon. It’s pretty annoying. 

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My observation is, the endless circling has become worse with the last update. It was better fefore. But what is the most immersion breaker for me is the friendly AI, who still starts engagements in the worst possible way, burning as much energy as possible by stupid turning, instead of gaining altitude or speed. And of course the behaviour during normal flying and landing.

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When I slow down and prepare to landing, my wingman kissed my ass two times😘 
which was ruined my 2 missions. It's doesn't happen before this update.....so, there is still a very long way to go.......

Edited by Oyster_KAI

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2 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

My observation is, the endless circling has become worse with the last update. It was better fefore. But what is the most immersion breaker for me is the friendly AI, who still starts engagements in the worst possible way, burning as much energy as possible by stupid turning, instead of gaining altitude or speed. And of course the behaviour during normal flying and landing.

My limited time with the current update, I would agree to the friendly AI going backwards.

 

The previous version they were able to not get butchered and even make it back to base without me having to always rescue their sorry behinds.  Unfortunately - it seems those days are over.  Back to the way it was earlier with most of ones flight getting wiped out each mission there is contact with the enemy.

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@Frost* my experience matches yours. The Ace AI seems to not shoot when it's got a valid solution. In my testing I could only get the Ace AI to shoot when merging, head-on. 

 

All the other time it's either circling, split S' and some confusing left/right wing movement when I was right on its six, a few meters behind. When it has more energy than the player it will zoom up almost vertically, to drop back on you, but doesn't seem to shoot.

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"3. Advanced AIs won't 'stuck' in an endless circle during dogfight anymore"
"4. AIs perform "Low Yo-Yo" and "High Yo-Yo" maneuvers better"

 

THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!

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Now that I’ve had several flights in the update today it seems the enemy ai is back to flying mostly endless circles. Mates making it back to base is more miss than hit. More often all or most of them get wiped out or wipe themselves out. 
 

The good thing is there is a focus on getting the ai right so patience is called for. I’m trying!

 

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I still see the "turn lock" happening too sometimes, but I can be patient :). The way that the AI fighters fight has always been one area I hope the 1CGS team can continually improve. I wish the defensive AI would do more split Ss, more scissors, more dives if it can gain an advantage, just more evasive techniques if it's on the defensive. And on the flip side, I wish their were more offensive techniques. It does do some of this and a lot of the battles are fun, just hope it keeps getting better.

 

It seems like the AI needs more knowledge of its plane's strengths and weaknesses against its enemy's plane's strengths and weaknesses and it should use that knowledge in its decisions more,  like a real pilot would. Perhaps the game does this already, but if I'm fighting against a high-energy AI plane, I don't see it maintaining or using energy to its advantage. I've been test flying a Yak (both s69 and 1b) against a FW-190D on Ace AI and it seems like the AI is just too eager to engage in turn fighting. I wish it would gain more distance, use energy, etc, instead of always turning into me right away.

Obviously I'm speaking as someone with no knowledge of how flight sims are built or what is technically possible with the AI in them, so don't take it the wrong way. I just hope that we keep seeing more AI improvements with the air combat. :)

Edited by blah

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28 minutes ago, =SqSq=Civilprotection said:

@56RAF_Stickz That worked, thanks for that! I swear I could change the file browser file type via the drop down. Anyway, it's sorted now. Thanks again.

your welcome glad it helped

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On 12/18/2019 at 2:17 PM, Frost* said:

Thanks for the update.

 

3. Advanced AIs won't 'stuck' in an endless circle during dogfight anymore;

 

Just flown pure dogfights for an hour against all levels of AI and this still happens often...such an immersion killer, please fix properly!

 

Thanks.

i think they fixed it after the update i did 5  dogfights and non of the AI don the endless circle

 

edit: i started a quick dogfight and the AI went full circle

Edited by G_Schwarz
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I was flying a mission in an IL2.  The 109s were not circling at all.  B&Z, sometimes zooming, often looping, great use of vertical.  At other times I have seen the AI scissor.  Took a Pfalz up against two Dolphins in QMB and they were sad and helpless as they circled in planes that have no business circling.  So mixed bag but definitely trending up.  

 

It looks to me like the AI knows more and better maneuvers.  Still a little work to go as to when, under what conditions, and how long to execute said maneuvers.  Overall I'm happy with the progress and more than happy that this is being tackled.

 

BTW: endless circling is not necessarily a bad idea when that's all you've got left and your in a plane that does it well.

56 minutes ago, smink1701 said:

This vid is all too familiar. Seriously, it's like fighting Dale Earnhardt.  The overly modeled, hopping pitch, the endless circles, after about five minutes I quite the game and move onto something else.  However, I do keep buying in the hopes that the dev team gets things sorted.

 

Not at all like fighting Dale Earnhardt.  He was turning tight.  Dale Earnhardt never turned right ... except for one time ... didn't go well.

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1 hour ago, PatrickAWlson said:

I was flying a mission in an IL2.  The 109s were not circling at all.  B&Z, sometimes zooming, often looping, great use of vertical.  At other times I have seen the AI scissor.  Took a Pfalz up against two Dolphins in QMB and they were sad and helpless as they circled in planes that have no business circling.  So mixed bag but definitely trending up.  

 

It looks to me like the AI knows more and better maneuvers.  Still a little work to go as to when, under what conditions, and how long to execute said maneuvers.  Overall I'm happy with the progress and more than happy that this is being tackled.

 

BTW: endless circling is not necessarily a bad idea when that's all you've got left and your in a plane that does it well.

 

Not at all like fighting Dale Earnhardt.  He was turning tight.  Dale Earnhardt never turned right ... except for one time ... didn't go well.

Ha, that's a good one!

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I am suspecting that AI looses target, cancels attack and starts 'fly around' maneuver as default thing when nothing to do.

If someone finds a way to stably reproduce it I would appiciate a lot.

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Just a thought,  but since we have pilot endurance model... would the ai just get ‘tired’ ?   Then start this pattern?

i mean, online pvp, we encounter some pilots doing outrageous defensive/offensive maneuvers that may end up just getting them killed... blacking out or just making calculated error..

 

ai does its circles  maybe because it sees this as last resort?  

 

Or maybe as beneG stated.could just be they lose target and fly around... 

 

 

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The way I experience it, it is the first thing they do, when I attack them. Usually I turn away, so they stop the circling and then start again attacking them. I can't remember having seen an AI starting circling a second time.

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Yesterday in online tanking, a lot of us fighting on the red side agreed on how ridiculously hard the Tigers had become to kill. This had been bothering me for a few days, so it may have coincided with the release of this fix. However it was a bugfix release, so I'd be surprised if it were to radically change the Tiger damage model.

Specifically, when you shot a Tiger from the side, from very close range, into the gap above the tracks, perpendicularly, with APCR, you used to reliably blow it up. I believe this was correct, according to the "Kleeblatt" model.

A slightly different matter, it's now also really hard to blow the tracks off, even from very close range, straight from the front, with apcr. Can this be right?

 

 

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On 12/19/2019 at 1:15 AM, Jason_Williams said:


 Have 3 cats now
 

Jason

You have to post pics now, it's an unwritten law.

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On 12/25/2019 at 10:06 AM, beneG said:

I am suspecting that AI looses target, cancels attack and starts 'fly around' maneuver as default thing when nothing to do.

If someone finds a way to stably reproduce it I would appiciate a lot.

Hello Bene Gesserit,

 

I have noticed the following:

 

try QMB Tempest vs ACE Spitfire MKV engine Merlin 45 100l.  With the Tempest get some distance between you and the Spit, then you reverse with a sliceback to force AI to turn dive at you.

 

90% of the time AI will try to lead turn you, pulling loads to cut through your high speed diving turn. When you see the Spit belly close, reverse your trajectory to the opposite direction using roll:

 

AI has lost sight of you! 😀

 

AI actually tried a "blind" lead turn maneuver to cut through (nice!) , but it doesn't notice you reversed.

 

Now the Spit does'nt see you in front of him, and it starts his flat and tight horizontal turn to reacquire visual. It does it to spot you back, it's touching to see that! Ai  is not all seeing, what do complainers know?

 

AI is actually intelligent, still in its infancy, but i hope you guys will help it growing up: you can do it!

Edited by Caudron431Rafale
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2 hours ago, Caudron431Rafale said:

Ai  is not all seeing, what do complainers know?

The way AI works is very hard to understand. Because on the other side you have AI fighters flying straight and you approaching on their low six. When they are not in their RTB mode (in this mode you can do everything with them), they will always turn away as soon as you reached shooting distance. So there seem to be situations, in which AI see everything and situations in which they are allmost blind, or simply don't care. This will be one of the difficulties for beneG, to find out when they behave realistically and when they don't, and especially, why do they.

This might be the main difficulty, to find the logic behind the AI behaviour. Otherwise he will have to program it from the beginning.

Another thing of odd AI behaviour is something I notice in PWCG. Patrick gave the bombers high waypoint priority, so they don't turnfight when they are in formation and you attack them. But now the gunners often don't shoot, even with you comming in from the six on short distance. There are just behaviours, that are hard to understand.

Edited by Yogiflight

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56 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

The way AI works is very hard to understand. Because on the other side you have AI fighters flying straight and you approaching on their low six. When they are not in their RTB mode (in this mode you can do everything with them), they will always turn away as soon as you reached shooting distance.

 

This is simply not true, as I proved in this thread, in which you also posted. The enemy AI there is flying towards a low priority waypoint - not in RTB mode.  You can get within touching distance of an enemy AI if you stay exactly in his low six blind spot. Please stop repeating this myth.

 

 

 

Edited by unreasonable
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2 hours ago, unreasonable said:

This is simply not true, as I proved in this thread, in which you also posted. The enemy AI there is flying towards a low priority waypoint - not in RTB mode.  You can get within touching distance of an enemy AI if you stay exactly in his low six blind spot. Please stop repeating this myth.

I absolutely respect your test, the results and the conclusion you were drawing. They just don't fit to what I am still experiencing in missions. Your conclusion was, when AI does not know you are there, you can fly close to it without him reacting, when he knows you are there, he will track you and react. The point is, when I am comming in on his low six, he can't track me, he would have to fly Ses to look behind, what he doesn't. Plus, when he is tracking me, he would turn to attack me, as soon as he realises, I am faster than he is, and not in the very moment I put my reticle at him.

But this was exactly what my post was about, AI often acts in a way, you would not expect, for some reason, most likely noone knows. My example of the bomber gunners not shootig back, when the bombers' waypoint priority is set to high, is interseting in the way, the gunners sometimes shoot at you, sometimes they don't, no matter if I am flying PWCG or the game's career mode. Why? I guess the main difficulty in improving the AI behaviour will be to understand, why do they act in the same(?) situation one time this way another time that way. Because if you just fix an issue, without knowing why this issue exists, you might fix one issue by opening another one.

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I have to take back some of what I said. I have not seen the turn lock happen at all since I last wrote so maybe it was the AI losing sight like beneG suggested.


There was the person earlier who posted a video of it happening at the end of the video, but I can't find that vid. It would be interesting to see if perhaps that was caused by the same thing. Even if it's still happening though, it's not happening anywhere near as much. Not even close, and I'm just not seein it at all.


Again, nice job 1CGS. The AI is one major part that can always use improvement and it's great to see it being worked on! And also thank you to @beneG and other devs for participating so much in this forum. Not many sims/games give their customers the luxury of getting to speak directly to the devs and it goes a long way. Alright, enough ass kissing lol.

 

I do still hope the AI can continue getting improved in dogfights  :) but I assume that's something that will always be improving as you get the time for it. I know the AI does do BnZ's like PatrickAWilson mentioned, but I don't see it often once fighters are into fight. The slow turners are just too willing to turn fight against a better turner which isn't very realistic unless a pilot was inexperienced. I hope we see more things where an AI in a high-energy plane dives away, gains distance or altitude, and uses more tactics that high-energy fighters would use. But again, the battles are already fun and seeing this turn lock gone (at least for me so far) is a very nice change!

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@Yogiflight Unfortunately that was exactly the reason I abandoned high priority waypoints many years ago in RoF - the gunners stop shooting.  On medium priority the bombers will evade and not hold formation.  (On low priority they behave like fighters :)  ).  Perhaps this is a simple bug with a relatively easy fix and not a design choice.

 

@beneG Some thoughts on the AI losing focus:

1. If the Ai has just lost you he knows where you were last.  Perhaps his maneuver should be something to reestablish contact rather than a default maneuver.  Said maneuver might not be ideal for regaining a firing solution but it would be a realistic response.

 

Examples:

contact lost below: half loop to gain altitude and pick up contact again.

Contact lost co-alt between 4:00 and 6:00, perhaps a scissors to find again or again a half loop to reestablish altitude and contact.

Contact lost under nose and Ai is not in a 6:00 position: Hi yo-yo towards the path of the contact.

 

Also make the AI respond based on Ai level. A novice might just turn where a better pilot would use a better maneuver based on the situation.

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35 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

Unfortunately that was exactly the reason I abandoned high priority waypoints many years ago in RoF - the gunners stop shooting.  On medium priority the bombers will evade and not hold formation.  (On low priority they behave like fighters :)  ).  Perhaps this is a simple bug with a relatively easy fix and not a design choice.

Yes I remember you had answered me this, when I asked you to give the bombers high waypoint priority, because of their turnfighting. It is hard to understand, why the gunners don't shoot with high waypoint priority, because I can't imagine any situation in which the gunner should act that way.

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5 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

I absolutely respect your test, the results and the conclusion you were drawing. They just don't fit to what I am still experiencing in missions. Your conclusion was, when AI does not know you are there, you can fly close to it without him reacting, when he knows you are there, he will track you and react. The point is, when I am comming in on his low six, he can't track me, he would have to fly Ses to look behind, what he doesn't. Plus, when he is tracking me, he would turn to attack me, as soon as he realises, I am faster than he is, and not in the very moment I put my reticle at him.

In the test mission the player plane was spawn already in the deadzone of the AI, while under mission circumstances you have to get there somehow. It's still unknown what separation is needed to sneak into the deadzone of the AI unnoticed. It's easily possible that the AI detects you when you curve in at a distance of 2 to 4 km, but doesn't react until you get dangerously close.

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8 minutes ago, sniperton said:

It's easily possible that the AI detects you when you curve in at a distance of 2 to 4 km, but doesn't react until you get dangerously close.

And this exactly is a wrong behaviour. When the enemy flies straight and I am on his low six, he doesn't know, when I am dangerously close. Plus, it is very remarkable, that the AI always turns away, when I put my reticle on him. This tells me, it is the game, that makes him act that way, not the AI, who knows I am close enough to shoot at him.

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42 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

And this exactly is a wrong behaviour. When the enemy flies straight and I am on his low six, he doesn't know, when I am dangerously close. Plus, it is very remarkable, that the AI always turns away, when I put my reticle on him. This tells me, it is the game, that makes him act that way, not the AI, who knows I am close enough to shoot at him.

 

In a strangely related way, the first time I ran Elite Dangerous, it was on a graphics card that could barely handle it.  It was absolutely obvious with the slideshow frame rate that the target was programmed to dodge the reticule, even with the (theoretical) AI pilot's field of view unable to look at my ship or it's orientation in relation it's own.  The reason I bring this up is that it may be possible to confirm the same thing is happening by running the game with a very poor graphics card or settings that brick the frame rate.  Maybe somebody would be willing to take the time to try it if they have a spare toaster card laying around.  

 

I am pretty sure that I have seen the AI dodge the reticule as well, but it's hard for me to tell when everything is running smoothly.   

 

--------

 

I had another odd thought about AI gunners, especially for planes that have more than 1 gunner station.  I don't know if the game could handle it, but what if they were given an AI system similar to the "dual AI" system in Alien Isolation?  The main AI "knows" at all times where the player is and gives hints to the secondary AI which only knows the player's general area and controls the alien.  The secondary AI can only react to the player "triggering its senses" and either further zero in its search, or attack if it has line of sight. 

The main AI would  alert the gunners of your presence. The secondary would be able to point the gun in the direction it believes you to be until it gets actual line of sight.  In cases where your plane passes through the line of sight for only a second, - for example, the rear underside gunner of the twin engine bombers (A-20, He-111, Ju-88, Pe-2) - add a millisecond or so of "reflex delay" when the target actually comes into the window view.  In cases where the line of sight could be acquired and the gunner could theoretically shoot early deflection as the plane passes through the firing arc, adjust the AI accordingly.  

 

I can't really say if it's worth anything to even ponder this, but I figured I'd put it out there.

Edited by Mobile_BBQ

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1 hour ago, Yogiflight said:

And this exactly is a wrong behaviour. When the enemy flies straight and I am on his low six, he doesn't know, when I am dangerously close. Plus, it is very remarkable, that the AI always turns away, when I put my reticle on him. This tells me, it is the game, that makes him act that way, not the AI, who knows I am close enough to shoot at him.

 

600 meters in BoS, 300 meters in FC.  Precisely.  If you open fire from 601 meters you can blast away :) 

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One of the biggest problems is that we tend to anthropomorphize the AI.  Players tend to want to think of "them" as sentient entities that can react like we do.

 

This is a totally wrong expectation.

 

The AI are merely extensions of the game's programing, "they" are the game engine itself, hence, "they" always "know" where you are, what your speed is, every input you make in your pixel plane, your energy state, etc... and yes, the program "knows" when you put your sight on an AI enemy, and when you are at your convergence setting.  The trick for the programmer is to try to dampen, or obfuscate this information in such a way that it makes the game engine's response to your attack on it more "human".  That is something that even the best military AI controlled drones, with budgets of millions, if not billions, of dollars cannot do well yet.

 

Expecting our small dev team, that is constricted by a shoe string budget, to conquer this problem in a fortnight or so, is dreaming on the part of the player base, much less to expect it to run on any of our home PCs.

Edited by BlitzPig_EL

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5 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

One of the biggest problems is that we tend to anthropomorphize the AI.  Players tend to want to think of "them" as sentient entities that can react like we do.

 

This is a totally wrong expectation.

 

The AI are merely extensions of the game's programing, "they" are the game engine itself, hence, "they" always "know" where you are, what your speed is, every input you make in your pixel plane, your energy state, etc... and yes, the program "knows" when you put your sight on an AI enemy, and when you are at your convergence setting.  The trick for the programmer is to try to dampen, or obfuscate this information in such a way that it makes the game engine's response to your attack on it more "human".  That is something that even the best military AI controlled drones, with budgets of millions, if not billions, of dollars cannot do well yet.

 

Expecting our small dev team, that is constricted by a shoe string budget, to conquer this problem in a fortnight or so, is dreaming on the part of the player base, much less to expect it to run on any of our home PCs.

 

The whole point of game AI is to make situations and non-player characters seem more realistic so that the experience is more immersive. If a game's developers makes a player think that the AI is some sentient being then the developers succeeded! Good AI should do this as much as is physically/realistically possible.

 

There's nothing wrong with players making suggestions about how they think the AI can be improved. At least there shouldn't be. That's one way in which the game can get better.

 

Of course there are technical challenges in how complex a game's AI can be, especially in something like a flight simulator that's also modeling physics, damage, etc, I assume. But that doesn't mean that players should refrain from making suggestions about how they think the AI can be more realistic/immersive.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with all your points, just saying that the average player doesn't really care how AI works. They care about the AI being as realistic as possible, and that goes for any game/simUnrealistic NPC AI is an immersion killer. Anyone that's played a game or sim whose NPC's AI was dumb as rocks knows that the game/sim gets boring real quick (not referring to IL2, the AIs getting better and better and is by no means dumb). Striving to improve NPC AI in a flight simulator where the majority of people play SP is a good thing IMHO.

Edited by blah

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On 12/28/2019 at 6:29 AM, Yogiflight said:

And this exactly is a wrong behaviour. When the enemy flies straight and I am on his low six, he doesn't know, when I am dangerously close. Plus, it is very remarkable, that the AI always turns away, when I put my reticle on him. This tells me, it is the game, that makes him act that way, not the AI, who knows I am close enough to shoot at him.

 

Only if you are detected. (Got track!) 

 

There is no difference between "the AI" and "the game".  The AI is just a set of instructions along the lines "If X do Y", which have to be explicitly specified. If one of those instructions does indeed make the AI start jinking as soon as your reticle is over him, I agree this could be done with a lot more subtlety.  Presumably it was done - as was the arguably too good AI spotting abilities - to make fighting the AI a bit more of a challenge.

 

You can see the problem: most of the AI complaints are that they are too easy to shoot down, and many of the others are about behaviours that make the AI harder to shoot down!  

 

At least we can all now be sure that the team is now taking an active interest in improving this extremely important area. 

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