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666GIAP_Chimango

A few issues degrading online MP experience on the EASTERN FRONT after last patch

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if You agree that proper testing is needed I am surprised 

 

On 12/24/2019 at 5:07 PM, Dakpilot said:

 

The thought of 17 gram mineshelll (or any small HE) pressure wave making pilot lose consciousness seems very far fetched  in my experience. 

Shrapnel of course would be a different matter

 

This aspect/side effect of pilot physiology needs further attention and some proper bug reports/testing to devs

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

 

because it seemed like you had already identified the problem and were about to write a note to the devs.

 

No hard feelings mate, but it did sound like you were howling with the wolves for a while there 

Edited by =EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand
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5 hours ago, Mauf said:

Actually no, quite the opposite for me. I now have to regularly smash the stick forward for a second to avoid the blackout in a spit or yak when turning defensive against a 109, creating MORE stupid jerk maneuvers, not less. Doing anything else ends in a guaranteed loss/death by either blackout or giving the 109 an easy shooting solution. When flying the 109, I saw exactly that too. Either I turned with the Spit/Yak for a while, skirting blackout until the opponent either started flying straight, smashed the nose down or lawndarted.

 

This kinda is an option because your pilot is almost always completely exhausted all the time already (no feedback), so it doesn't matter if you now start doing crazy stick jerking anyways. It might take a while to trickle through to most red pilots (if they don't stop playing MP outright) but I expect the anti-blackout-jerk to become more common.

Before you could do the same with the difference that you can pull up and after that pull down again, and after that pull up again and again and again. And you could see planes making evasives like a car with hidraulic suspension. So what he have now is much better than before. If the argument is I can not pull forever like a superman so I need to make some negatives to evade shots, I  think that way is better. 

I guess. this kind of evasive is more realistic for you:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UunE_7WB1nQ&list=PLvChOif2fvUWHshGIx6_w6VzV3WdDoDQb&index=8

 

 

 

Edited by E69_geramos109
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4 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said:

Before you could do the same with the difference that you can pull up and after that pull down again, and after that pull up again and again and again. And you could see planes making evasives like a car with hidraulic suspension. So what he have now is much better than before. If the argument is I can not pull forever like a superman so I need to make some negatives to evade shots, I  think that way is better. 

I guess. this kind of evasive is more realistic for you:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UunE_7WB1nQ&list=PLvChOif2fvUWHshGIx6_w6VzV3WdDoDQb&index=8

 

 

 

 

True enough:) Still I find that the current implementation has some oddities that just don't chime well in my head. I've never read of pilots regularly "unloading" the Gs by hammering some negative Gs to pump some blood back into their heads and then continue turning and that this was a prerequisite for e.g. a Spitfire to maintain its turning advantage over the 109s. Not saying the new modelling is worse than the old just that it's probably not all golden yet. 1000 step journey and such.

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5 hours ago, Mauf said:

 

True enough:) Still I find that the current implementation has some oddities that just don't chime well in my head. I've never read of pilots regularly "unloading" the Gs by hammering some negative Gs to pump some blood back into their heads and then continue turning and that this was a prerequisite for e.g. a Spitfire to maintain its turning advantage over the 109s. Not saying the new modelling is worse than the old just that it's probably not all golden yet. 1000 step journey and such.

 

I put the answer for your post in the page 3.

 

Take it from:

Flight Surgeon's Manual, Volumen 161,Número 1,Parte 16,  United States. Department of the Air Force

Literally ¨3 G's for 5 seconds is highest tolerance, any negative acceleration over this can cause a permanent injury¨

content?id=UfvKBqRywpgC&hl=es&pg=SA5-PA7

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Posted (edited)
On 12/25/2019 at 4:59 PM, 666GIAP_Chimango said:


And this is once more some information  -like the one added by Darkpilot and others- supporting our statement that you can't be knocked unconscious or dead everytime a HE round hits near the cockpit area. Also in Pierre Clostermann's book "Le grand cirque" he tells how his armoured plates near the cockpit absorb the impacts of 20mm from enemy LW fighters and that saves his life. 

But ingame MG151/20 HE exagerated effect explode like hand granades like we and many other friends and people we share TS with during TAW are experiencing right now. Even a crappy round like the MG151/15 can do the same.  Here quick data that can be easily recovered from stats; and keep in mind this is just the data that shows up only on the first page. We can add dozens more if we have access to previous pages. And this is only data from our group, same thing can be seen in all VVS squads.

Most of our deaths to fighters come from instant PK/unconscious on their first burst and even on first shot:


https://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=74385&name=666GIAP_Chimango

https://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=70978&name=666GIAP_Tumu

https://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=75262&name=666GIAP_Miji

https://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=34880&name=666GIAP_Kayu

https://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=18781&name=666GIAP_Kayu

https://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=15769&name=666GIAP_Kayu

https://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=75842&name=666GIAP_Necathor

https://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=75215&name=666GIAP_Necathor

https://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=72042&name=666GIAP_Necathor

https://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=65436&name=666GIAP_Necathor

https://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=63978&name=HR_Tofolo

https://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=63929&name=HR_Tofolo

https://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=39825&name=HR_Tofolo

https://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=67038&name=ECV56_Moro

https://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=64253&name=ECV56_Moro

 

 


and furthere examples how there must be something wrong (maybe just as coindicental and accidental as a decimal typo) with the blue HE filler yield in code atm:
http://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=89501&name=[_FLAPS_]RogoRogo

one impact, ONE by a german cannon round (the others were MG hits), in this case like from a 151/20 leads to instant plane destruction and instant pilotkill (ignore the player who did it, although let's say he has somewhat of an attitude history).

As for anecdotal evidence how it might be the HE filler code, and not the or any ammunition type code - look at fe at this sortie.
http://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=82196&name=lala9000

This is a random player in a random bomber, his gunners, not the player shooting at a peshka longrange on exfil (both not aware of each other and the latter thinking AA is attacking him) and my peshka in a high closure low 6 pass (so only the bathtub could fire at me), spraying both his wings and engines and trying to hit the gunners (one pass, not more).
Notice the long range airkill on the first peshka, the damage difference between my peshka and the 88s gunners - in which I subjectively rate the damage done by my peshka as likely adequate btw.
(and for those in the business of goalpost moving, strawmanning and other forms of intentional misinterpretation and misunderstanding here is a disclaimer: gunners have to effective, for many design reasons, and this is not the topic of this remark)
Also notice the overspray damage blue-on-blue of one the blue bandits mach1 diving on me and the first one missing me solely due to compression and hitting the 88 hundreds of metres off my wing at this point.

Since 1C does not offer any tools for bug reporting or any formalized and structured bug reporting (something which a much much much smaller company like Magnitude 3 LLC manages to achieve with free tools, or almost free since they use functions of the Windows SBS suite) this of course might have a fate like fe the P39's Bendix - unless it would happen to garner a lot of notice, and a lot of threads aso created, it might not even come to the awareness of the product provider.

And it is the product provider that would need to look into it, since even datamining would not help find any source issues while acting on imperfect information about intent in design and code versus outcome.

That the issue is very much in the awareness of a certain gamer-mindset as an "OP #winharder factor/exploit " to be protected is fe demonstrated by instant narratives like this one:


Players throwing each under the bus who were very much coordinating their gameplay to protect their narrative. Well, and this is what makes any further discussion meritless, since the prerequisite for any bug-related discussion, or even the very process of discussion  itself is not possible when the social media style exchange behavior of #win and #anythinggoesfordawin trump facts by feelz and the feelz of being subjectively right by quota of populism is preferred to an intersubjective research of factor interdependencies and causalities.

Since Il2 is an air combat, tanks, combined arms simulator and not Fortnite, very unfortunate.

Edited by [_FLAPS_]RogoRogo
oops, typos, not all of them found I am pretty sure

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, [_FLAPS_]RogoRogo said:

and furthere examples how there must be something wrong (maybe just as coindicental and accidental as a decimal typo) with the blue HE filler yield in code atm:
http://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=89501&name=[_FLAPS_]RogoRogo

 

Sure, but then you also have this:

http://taw-server.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=72163&name=Raven109

 

1 hit kill from a La5. I'm sure that if we dig deep enough, you'll find cannons doing funky stuff on both sides. It could be a general DM issue.

 

Also, it could be that the damage reporting system is not accurate enough. (Although, in the case of the La-5 kill, it was instant destruction, I couldn't even react to being pounced)

 

Here's another one:

http://taw-server.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=78058&name=SCG_Polo

and another one:

http://taw-server.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=76063&name==LG=Mad_Mikhael

and another one:

http://taw-server.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=66285&name==LG=Aion

 

I think I could go on all day.

 

So, is the blue HE filler the issue, the red HE filler, or just general over the top damage system? I'm sure that looking at TAWs damage page is not the best way to prove something.

 

Here's a suggestion. Pick a red fighter, go to 1000m and fly over an objective; let the enemies attack you without reacting. Record results. Do this 30 times. Then pick a blue fighter and do the same. Much better testing than looking at a stats page where you don't even know what 

WAS DAMAGED 98.03%

means. (I think that a plane incurring 98.03% damage is one which is missing a wing, for example, but this is in no case the same as an obliterated plane, as some might think)

 

Can a cannon rip one wing with one shot? Given the right conditions, I think it can... Probably not at the rate that we see in-game.

Edited by Raven109
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Posted (edited)
On 12/21/2019 at 2:23 AM, [_FLAPS_]RogoRogo said:

http://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=71081&name=[_FLAPS_]RogoRogo

Unlike the impression the log is giving this was a single 20mm hit (witnessed by 2 friendlies right next to my plane) from an intentional PK "specialist" (Berloga trained ?) going for nothing but the armored (and closed) cockpit of my Sturmovik.
The behavior shown does not warrant any further comment while the code behavior does.
This was the first and only impact, no tracers before or after (save for the rest of the F-4s strangely surgical burst missing my wreck spinning away).
Instant PK and instant complete plane destruction, gunner strangely survived completely unharmed (even though the hit was on the armored sections of the cockpit area) and was killed by the "finish mission" bailout into the ground.
While inevitable this will be written off as some statistical outlier by the usual contributors it is nothing but another incident showing anything starting from the necessity of further coding QA to hit registration iteration to damage packet queueing revision to a possible decimal typo somewhere.

 

 

^^

Edited by [_FLAPS_]RogoRogo

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On 1/4/2020 at 2:03 PM, Raven109 said:

1 hit kill from a La5. I'm sure that if we dig deep enough, you'll find cannons doing funky stuff on both sides. It could be a general DM issue.

 

Also, it could be that the damage reporting system is not accurate enough. (Although, in the case of the La-5 kill, it was instant destruction, I couldn't even react to being pounced)


The stat pages should be taken with a big grain of salt. Each line does not correspond to a single bullet hit. This can easily be deferred from looking at the “number of bullets hit” to the amount of lines that state some % of damage. They never coincide so there must be a different underlying factor that determines the % damage.

Another thing to consider is that 100% damage does not mean the plane gets obliterated. A single hit that causes a “kill” for instance a hit causing the engine to seize will be a 100% damage.

 

The stats page really isn’t a data source that should be considered for the type of discussion here because it is just misleading.

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7 hours ago, =EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand said:


The stat pages should be taken with a big grain of salt. Each line does not correspond to a single bullet hit. This can easily be deferred from looking at the “number of bullets hit” to the amount of lines that state some % of damage. They never coincide so there must be a different underlying factor that determines the % damage.

Another thing to consider is that 100% damage does not mean the plane gets obliterated. A single hit that causes a “kill” for instance a hit causing the engine to seize will be a 100% damage.

 

The stats page really isn’t a data source that should be considered for the type of discussion here because it is just misleading.

Finally someone told this.

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S! 

 

Fully agreed. Stats are not showing true damage done. In "The other sim" you see detailed info on how many rounds hit, what type they were and what damage was done. Would be great to have such data in BoX. 

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