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III./JG7-MarkWilhelmsson

Current Ju-88 vs C6

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What are the differences between the A4 and C6? I know it has solid nose with guns, but what are the other differences? Gondola still there? Engines different? Rear gunners have more powerful guns? Can it still carry a bombload plus the nose guns? Thanks for any clarification. We already know we very likely aren't going to get radar and night missions so probably no need to mention that.

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Lots of info on Wikipedia:

Quote

"The C-6, of which 900 aircraft were produced, was based on the A-4 airframe with more powerful engines and stronger defensive armament (single- or dual-mount belt-fed 7.92 mm MG 81 or 13 mm MG 131 instead of drum-fed MG 15 machine guns)"

So I expect more power

 

Quote

"Many Ju-88C's had their Bola gondolas modified to hold up to two forward firing 20 mm cannons"

so I expect that the gondolas should be intact

 

 

"Schräge-Musik" would also be a fun modification to play with

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It will have an armoured windscreen - which should be important. Probably a reworked dorsal turret with a single MG-131... and the bombload reduced to 10xSC50.

 

33 minutes ago, pfrances said:

so I expect that the gondolas should be intact

 

Ju-88C6s used in the East often had their gondolas removed in order to reduce weight and increase speed - so this modification would make a lot of sense as a field mod and increase the viability of the aircraft in the game.

 

33 minutes ago, pfrances said:

"Schräge-Musik" would also be a fun modification to play with

 

Very much. I am not sure if they were fitted to any C-6a aircraft though (the version we're getting - without night-fighting equipment). A few C-6a were pressed into night-fighter duties though.

Edited by Avimimus
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5 minutes ago, pfrances said:

So I expect more power

 

Unfortunately wiki is not correct, both the A-4 and the C-6 have Jumo211J engines with 1420hp take off power. The A-4 and the C-6 really are the same aircraft, with the exception of the addition of the solid guns in the nose (3x7.92+1x20 fixed instead of 1x7.92 flexible), the occupation of the front fuselage bay with a fixed fuel tank in the C-6, bringing down bomb carrying capacity from 28 to 10 50kg bombs and the option to mount 2x20mm fixed forward firing guns in the gondola in place of the 2x7.92mm flexible rearward gun. Historically the 2x20 were used at night, the 2x7.92 at day.

 

It is possible that the devs decide for other, later options like a MG131 for defense. Still, same 1941 plane, for use in 1944.

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6 minutes ago, JtD said:

 

Unfortunately wiki is not correct, both the A-4 and the C-6 have Jumo211J engines with 1420hp take off power. The A-4 and the C-6 really are the same aircraft, with the exception of the addition of the solid guns in the nose (3x7.92+1x20 fixed instead of 1x7.92 flexible), the occupation of the front fuselage bay with a fixed fuel tank in the C-6, bringing down bomb carrying capacity from 28 to 10 50kg bombs and the option to mount 2x20mm fixed forward firing guns in the gondola in place of the 2x7.92mm flexible rearward gun. Historically the 2x20 were used at night, the 2x7.92 at day.

 

It is possible that the devs decide for other, later options like a MG131 for defense. Still, same 1941 plane, for use in 1944.

 

So basically it seems as though it will be almost like a giant version of the 110.

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The C-series, also known as the Z-series was the destroyer and night fighter version of the Ju88 since 1938. This series was developed from the Ju88-V7 and was principly based on the A-series. Instead of the glased nose section of the A-series, the C-series got a metal nose section and a remote machine gun at the rear tail unit. The C2/C3 were used as "Jabos" and got bomb mountings plus machine guns in the nose section. The C6 was used as a day and night fighter version and was equipped with radar systems, as well as with additional remote machine guns at the rear of the cockpit cabin.

 

 

 

 

Ju88C6a.jpg

ju88c6a-2.jpg

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Interestingly, I just read that the night fighter variant (as well as the day fighter variant) often removed the gondola (speed and climb being more important than firepower).

 

Even if we don't get the option to remove the gondola - One nice option would be to have the ability to simply remove the guns and their gunners in order to save weight (as was commonly done - although this may be more common in night fighters).

 

It seems that one of the first "Jazz Music" installations was in a Ju-88A4... but in practice such installations were used by night fighters - so I wouldn't expect to see it. It would be nice to have a Ju-88C-6 night fighter as an AI aircraft, alongside a Mosquito FB.VI night fighter (equipped with serrat homing) as AI... but given the perfectionism of the devs I expect that they'd want to program the electronics even if it was just the AI using them... so I wouldn't even expect to see it as part of an AI model.

6 minutes ago, Swing said:

The C6 was used as a day and night fighter version and was equipped with radar systems, as well as with additional remote machine guns at the rear of the cockpit cabin.

 

I have serious doubts about the accuracy of this claim (and the source - whatever it may be).

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15 minutes ago, III./JG7-MarkWilhelmsson said:

 

So basically it seems as though it will be almost like a giant version of the 110.

 

Pretty much.  Ground attack bomber and interceptor.  I have read that it was used to interdict Allied anti submarine patrols or to act as escort for FW 200s on maritime patrols.  They were pressed into daylight operations against the . allies at Normandy with predicable results - they got slaughtered.

 

People have posted that in the east it was used as a train buster.  3x7.92 for fixed armament honestly is not that much of a punch at all.

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53 minutes ago, pfrances said:

Lots of info on Wikipedia:

So I expect more power

 

so I expect that the gondolas should be intact

 

 

"Schräge-Musik" would also be a fun modification to play with

 

I read that too at the time of the announcement. I was left under the impression that there were lots of sub-types of C6s ... even a nachtjaeger version (which I think we wont be getting). 

 

So the "specific" mention to a C6, may require more .... well, specification!

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29 minutes ago, Swing said:

ju88c6a-2.jpg

 

I hope we get this option for a paint job. Those crafty Germans.

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22 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

Pretty much.  Ground attack bomber and interceptor.  I have read that it was used to interdict Allied anti submarine patrols or to act as escort for FW 200s on maritime patrols.  They were pressed into daylight operations against the . allies at Normandy with predicable results - they got slaughtered.

 

People have posted that in the east it was used as a train buster.  3x7.92 for fixed armament honestly is not that much of a punch at all.

 

Coastal Command aircraft and the C-6 meeting on the Southwest corner of the map wouldn't seem entirely impossible (they met over the Bay of Biscay... whey not also meet on the route to and from it?) That is another reason why a rocket-armed Mossie would be good for gameplay.

 

I agree that a single MG-FF and 3xMG17 seems a bit weak for train-busting. It beats a single MG17 though! That said a He-111 with 2xMGFF is better armed (even if it is unarmoured) and at least one He-111 field modification carried six 20mm cannons for attacking trains.

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ZG 1 used the BMW 801 equipped Ju 88 R-2 alongside the otherwise identical Ju 88 C-6 during the BoN timeframe. This at least somewhat viable and worthwhile model should be included as a modification or replace the C-6. ZG 1 operated over the Bay of Biscay from airfields far outside the proposed map area. Thus the C-6 (R-2) should be the collector plane (and the Ju 188 replace the non-fitting Ar 234 B-2; sell latter as a stand-alone BoBP collector plane).
Very few C-6 served with KG 51 & KG 76 during the BoS & BoK campaigns; their missions are almost impossible to recreate. Not doing the R-2 because of this would be a bad choice in my opinion.

1496551772_Ju88R-2.jpg.09eb368e9dac468898a2d85a213b156a.jpg

 

 

15 hours ago, Avimimus said:

Ju-88C6s used in the East often had their gondolas removed in order to reduce weight and increase speed

I'm afraid I disagree.

Edited by =27=Davesteu
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43 minutes ago, =27=Davesteu said:

I'm afraid I disagree.

 

Oh? Admittedly my info is from Jippo's team (which created the Ju-88 in the original Il-2)... it comes from their description of the gondolaless variant which they 3d modelled (but which wasn't accepted by Oleg's team).

 

I'm also curious why you think the mission profiles in the east couldn't be recreated?

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2 hours ago, pfrances said:

 

I hope we get this option for a paint job. Those crafty Germans.

 

Interesting! A "phasmid" (quote "the far side of the world" movie).

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I wish we were getting a BMW powered version and not the Jumo powered version.

 

But still I'm so glad we are getting it. Having the bomber and the heavy fighter versions of the 88 makes me happy.

 

junkers_ju88_image_3.jpgJu_88_R_2N-MH_1-ZG_1_8_May1944_Marsaille-Marignan.jpg

 

I hope we get radar as a modification for it. And Jazz Music guns as well.

 

h30e0tssitx21.jpg

 

WW2-German-Aircraft-Typenschild-WING-Dat

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3 hours ago, JtD said:

Still, same 1941 plane, for use in 1944.

Precisely what made my eyebrows lift when I saw it listed on Normandy expansion.

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it was possible to replace the nose MG-FF/M with a MG151/20.

So, if the gondola is removed the weapons should also be changed 6his way- IF we get the Gondola removed modification!

 

Just to remember - a 109G-2 has than almsot the same firepower, just one MG17 less ! It was all about Range with this Ju88C-6 - nothing important for this game IMHO

And i hope, even it was almost never used, it will get the ETCs under the inner wingsections to carry more bombs as a modification. To give the plane a reason to exist in (online)gameplay.If not, an A-4 is better always IMHO.

10 hours ago, JtD said:

. Still, same 1941 plane, for use in 1944.

the smart german aircraft development plan in WW2 - as they thought the war would be won 1942 🤐

Edited by III/JG53Frankyboy

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3CD3AC3A-1685-4104-BF8C-8982A639557C.thumb.jpeg.3e848c888ab5933a5801094ae24ef76d.jpeg

 

45573EF4-ECD6-48E5-9B2E-6F344F6BAAF3.jpeg

 

and as nice this C-6 is, i would prefer a 20mm MG-FF/M modification for the A-4 tbh

i know than it would lose its bombsight and a, as best, its divebrakes to gain some more speed.

Edited by III/JG53Frankyboy
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The C6 will have a hard time catching anything except a C-47 or perhaps a heavily laden B-25, after a long tail chase.   

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The main effect it will have in MP is, freshing up the statistics of allied pilots.:crazy:

I would prefer a Ju 188 instead, however I know this would be a bit more work in transforming the Ju 88 A4.

Edited by Yogiflight
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Of course it has it's historical place, but if you want to intercept bombers, a 190 is a better choice and if you want to do some bombing, an A-4 is a better choice. This is a unique plane without a niche. 

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3 minutes ago, [DBS]Browning said:

Of course it has it's historical place, but if you want to intercept bombers, a 190 is a better choice and if you want to do some bombing, an A-4 is a better choice. This is a unique plane without a niche. 

 

Its niche will be "crap plane - can I survive" for single players.  I could see @Gambit21 putting together an interesting Normandy campaign.  I will put a unit in PWCG - might be interesting to fly for a bit before transferring to something else.

40 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

The main effect it will have in MP is, freshing up the statistics of allied pilots.:crazy:

I would prefer a Ju 188 instead, however I know this would be a bit more work in transforming the Ju 88 A4.

Which is pretty much what it did in real life when it had to deal with Allied fighters.  It seemed to be a pretty good plane for its original purpose: long range patrol and nuisance bomber.  Ask it to be a daylight attack plane against a well covered and massive invasion and the results are about what one would expect.

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I plan to use it as a ground attacker mostly. I'll make some patrol and ground attack missions for it.

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Jason said they had to choose between the Ju 188 and the Me 410. I cant say for sure but I have a feeling that the C6 was part of the dev's 42-43 vision of the Normandy map but got included here because of the missing Ju 188. Kind of like the Arado and Spit for Bodenplatte coming with Normandy as collectors

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Hello,

 

I think adding the Ju88C-6a with the Ju88R-2 as a sub-variant would be a smart thing to do.  This gives the best possible coverage over a large time-span and keeps the multiplayer crowd happier with a better performing version in the R-series for 1943-1944 ops (1700PS vs 1410PS per engine).  Additionally, there is a preserved Ju88R-1 at the RAF Museum (Hendon??) if further info is needed. The Ju88C was heavily used on all fronts and is a worthy addition for Moscow, Stalingrad and Kuban campaigns as well as in Normandy (and potentially the med in the future). It's ubiquitousness is such that I think it was a smart idea by the devs to include it with the Normandy campaign.

 

To all those requesting the Ju188, I totally understand.  We have never had a proper Ju188 in a simulation before (only mods) and it would be a worthy addition. I'd be 100% behind getting it as AI first and then sold separately later as per the B-25 and B-26. Keep in mind that the Jumo vs BMW question would still be a headache for the Ju188 since Jumo and BMW powered versions of the Ju188 were developed in parallel (Jumo Ju188A-series bomber /Ju188D-series recon exactly matching up to the BMW Ju188E-series / Ju188F-series recon).  On that note I think we should have a Ju88D-1 load-out with cameras for our current Ju88A-4 with corresponding photo-reconnaissance mission types added to the single and multiplayer modes.

 

Cheers,

 

Fafnir_6

Edited by Fafnir_6
Removed refs to Ju88G & note about the Ju88R-1 at the RAF Museum
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The Ju 188 isn't all that much a better airplane than an engined-up, mid-to-late war Ju 88.

Stacked against the late war allied opposition, it really doesn't matter much whether you're slaughtered in a Ju 88A, C or in a Ju 188.

The late-war Ju 88s were pretty  performant - more so than the Ju 188 versions fielded. The G is my favourite model with it's squared tail from the 188.

 

Though I'd love to see a 188 made eventually, I really don't mind the 88C - especially should they really consider modelling the R variant.

 

Edited by Bremspropeller

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about C-6 or R-2 , you will die fast at 510km/h and at 560km/h , as soon you will be spotted by an enemy fighter- you are dead.

 

I guess a C-6 is less work for 1C

 

MY favorite would be the S-1 as bomber, and as mentioned above, a MG—FF/M modification for the A-4

Edited by III/JG53Frankyboy
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Permitting myself a somewhat cynical joke, one could say that the C-6 is in IL2 for exactly the same reason it was in Normandy in 44:
Old, existing hardware reintroduced because of a lack of time and money to produce something better. 😉

 

 

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The Ju88S/T would be the best fit for 1944 Bombing/photo recon ops.  It was a VERY quick plane.

 

Cheers,

 

Fafnir_6

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The C-6 can be used for intruder missions like the Mosquito - and for escorting ships etc. It makes for a challenging aircraft to fly, and an additional aircraft to shoot down... and it was present historically. ...If we had a Lancaster... well, then it would be a different story - a decent air target for it (alongside a late model of the 110G...)

 

I agree about the 188... I think its cockpit is my favourite (out of perhaps any aircraft made)... the view and the structure of the windscreen... it left me a bit torn about the Me-410 (even though the 410 is more versatile)... maybe if we get a 45 'East' scenario with the Yak-3, La-7, He-162, and Ju-188... plus a few minor aircraft or tanks? We can hope.

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20 minutes ago, III/JG53Frankyboy said:

about C-6 or R-2 , you will die fast at 510km/h and at 560km/h , as soon you will be spotted by an enemy fighter- you are dead.

 

I guess a C-6 is less work for 1C

 

MY favorite would be the S-1 as bomber, and as mentioned above, a MG—FF/M modification for the A-4

Wow is that the difference in speed between the C and the R?  That's pretty significant.

 

Agreed.

 

Yeah a Ju88S-1 would be fabulous.

 

Fafnir_6

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Considering I’ve gotten a2a kills using the front guns of pe2s and he111s I very much look foreword to supplementing my 110s with this and the 410. With the nasty 13mm gun protecting its back I feel like it will do ok. Just set the gunners to long range.  I think it will also be able to bnz and ground attack decently better in game than irl.  I wonder how it’s climb rate stacks against say a p40/p47 or some of the worse climbing planes we have.  

In my experience the 88’s airframe is durable enough, just the engines will hurt it in vulnerability, speed, and acceleration.  

I’m also quite happy we wont be laden with a radar in our daylight centric game, I’d be more into wilde sau ops anyways.

Edited by Hajo_Garlic

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I'll take a C-6 anytime.

 

I don't recall there being a solid-nose 88 in a sim ever (not counting mods)? That 88, plus the 410, Typhoon, and possibility of a flyable Marauder really cheered my heart & took away my hesitation over buying BoBP. I don't need to win/survive all the time to have fun; outdated Ju 88 sounds fun as hell!!                                                  

                            

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The Pilot Physiology has been a great equallying Factor and I believe has made worse Performing Aircraft more viable since now managing Speed and Gs is far more Crucial than it has ever been.

 

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22 hours ago, [DBS]Browning said:

Of course it has it's historical place, but if you want to intercept bombers, a 190 is a better choice and if you want to do some bombing, an A-4 is a better choice. This is a unique plane without a niche. 

Totally agreeing in this. And refer to many others by saying that main problem with many packs is limited axis planes. 
Pretty sure we did not get the JU 188 because it is saved to a later GB pack. The C6 simply is a cheaper way out. And unfortunately a plane not really up for anything we need it to in Normandy

Edited by No.322_LuseKofte

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I can’t help think that the C6 would be better off as the AI aircraft, and more value would be seen across every theatre expansion if the C-47 was the one flyable. 

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2 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

The Pilot Physiology has been a great equallying Factor and I believe has made worse Performing Aircraft more viable since now managing Speed and Gs is far more Crucial than it has ever been.

 

It helped me a lot blowing less at dogfighting.

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Ju88s already are used as low alt pinpoint bombers so making one with more guns insted bombsight thats not used mutch is great selection, devs know what most players like in their game. For game where you can destroy factorys with 20mm, C6 is perfect selection. Planset they have for BoN could not be better, only improvment i see is needed is G6/AS and make Spit XIV one of first to come out in early acces so allied players se reson to preorder whole thing and not just wait to get it as collectable.

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Trying to present this as some new aircraft and offering it as anything other than a (relatively small) mod to the existing A4 is perplexing and disappointing. 

 

As a mod it's cool to have - I'd even pay a few bucks for it. As a standalone aircraft being sold in a new title it's a half measure.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by CUJO_1970
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13 minutes ago, CUJO_1970 said:

Trying to present this as some new aircraft and offering it as anything other than a (relatively small) mod to the existing A4 is perplexing and disappointing. 

 

As a mod it's cool to have - I'd even pay a few bucks for it. As a standalone aircraft being sold in a new title it's a half measure that feels like a slap in the face.

 

 

 

 

 

I suppose it depends on one's PoV and expectations.

 

I'd adore a whole new aircraft but am happy to see different versions.

 

I initially felt the same about all the 109s but now I know a bit better and can see/understand the differences.

 

are you sure they're not more different than you think? I'm no expert on axis aircraft!

Edited by OrLoK
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