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The_Shadow

Flying the Spitfire V

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Hi everyone,

I was trying to fly the Spitfire V and my engine keeps burning out after about 10 minutes.  I've watched Requiem's tutorial on flying it, and I'm just cruising around with boost at 0 or below.  I keep the oil and water temps below maximum.  What am I doing wrong?

Thanks

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21 minutes ago, The_Shadow said:

Hi everyone,

I was trying to fly the Spitfire V and my engine keeps burning out after about 10 minutes.  I've watched Requiem's tutorial on flying it, and I'm just cruising around with boost at 0 or below.  I keep the oil and water temps below maximum.  What am I doing wrong?

Thanks

Maybe engine timers are killing your engine, if your in SP, turn on instrument panel in realisam settings to check if you get message that your emergancy timer run out (you dont get that message in Expert as its still bug that didnt get fix).

Are you in this limits for rpm and boost, even if your boost is low maybe you have rpm high to activate timers:

"Max Cruising power (unlimited time): 2650 RPM, boost +7

International power (up to 30 minutes): 2850 RPM, boost +9

Emergency Max All Out power (up to 5 minutes): 3000 RPM, boost +16"

Edited by 77.CountZero

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46 minutes ago, The_Shadow said:

Hi everyone,

I was trying to fly the Spitfire V and my engine keeps burning out after about 10 minutes.  I've watched Requiem's tutorial on flying it, and I'm just cruising around with boost at 0 or below.  I keep the oil and water temps below maximum.  What am I doing wrong?

Thanks

Your RPMs are the Problem. At 3000RPM the Merlin has an average Piston Speed of 15.2m/s. That is where most Cars bounce into the Rev Limiter. That is a Merlin Piston, and below that your average Car Piston.

It should become obvious why revving it that high for long durations isn't healthy for such an Engine. So Reduce your RPM.

 

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Edited by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

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Open the radiator,.its manual on the mk V.

 

Drop the rpm within limits.

Edited by DD_fruitbat

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The Spit V has an error in it's engine timer. According to both the pilots notes and the game, the engine could be run for 5 minutes a 3000rpm, 16PSI but in the game, the limit is 3 minutes with engine failures occurring between 3.15 and 4.30 if you don't reduce power or rpm. I logged this as an error years ago. I've noted that high revs dramatically reduces the engine timer on the Spit V so I never use 3000rpm. I find staying under 2850rpm, even at 16PSI (this would destroy the engine in real life) gives a much longer engine timer (6 minutes-ish) for a slight reduction in acceleration.

Stay under 2650rpm when just cruising around.

 

On most US/UK fighters I bind the throttle and rpm together as this is how they were supposed to be used in real life and simplifies flying and engine management. On the Spit V, you absolutely need an different control axis for rpm. You'll only need to learn two settings, 2600rpm for cruising and 2800rpm for combat.

 

As for the radiator, 2 clicks (40%) is fine for cruise and high speed flight. Three clicks (60%) will keep your engine cool in a high power, low speed dogfight. 

Edited by Bloodsplatter
I spell like an idiot

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Aaaand if chasing then stay at high combat power but close up the rad to 20% or 0% to get that edge in speed, remembering to open it back up just before pulling the trigger on your target.

 

I also trim nose down a little from standard as it makes it easier to keep sight / guns on target.

 

She's an effective fighter but requires attention and she hasn't much ammo to waste.

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2 hours ago, Bloodsplatter said:

The Spit V has an error in it's engine timer. According to both the pilots notes and the game, the engine could be run for 5 minutes a 3000rpm, 16PSI but in the game, the limit is 3 minutes with engine failures occurring between 3.15 and 4.30 if you don't reduce power or rpm. I logged this as an error years ago. I've noted that high revs dramatically reduces the engine timer on the Spit V so I never use 3000rpm. I find staying under 2850rpm, even at 16PSI (this would destroy the engine in real life) gives a much longer engine timer (6 minutes-ish) for a slight reduction in acceleration.

Stay under 2650rpm when just cruising around.

 

On most US/UK fighters I bind the throttle and rpm together as this is how they were supposed to be used in real life and simplifies flying and engine management. On the Spit V, you absolutely need an different control axis for rpm. You'll only need to learn two settings, 2600rpm for cruising and 2800rpm for combat.

 

As for the radiator, 2 clicks (40%) is fine for cruise and high speed flight. Three clicks (60%) will keep your engine cool in a high power, low speed dogfight. 

Maybe error is just in forum specs for airplane that say 5min limit. In game spec say limit is 3min, and in game you get message that your over limit after 3min use (you can see message when you turn on instrument panle option in realisam).

 

If we have to be forced to use this fantasy braking of engines when you go over limits, then we have to be informed when that limit time game wonts us to be limited to , to work, and now it dosent work , as it works only when instrument panel is on. I dont care what kined of fantasy timers they select but make it bug free atleast so i know how game wonts me to play, and not just count on random failures how its now without any info when exactly engine timer run out, or got fantasy recharged like in formula E or mario cart, they atleast tell you when boost or magic starbar is recharged.

 

Edited by 77.CountZero
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8 hours ago, 77.CountZero said:

If we have to be forced to use this fantasy braking of engines when you go over limits, then we have to be informed when that limit time game wonts us to be limited to , to work, and now it dosent work , as it works only when instrument panel is on. I dont care what kined of fantasy timers they select but make it bug free atleast so i know how game wonts me to play, and not just count on random failures how its now without any info when exactly engine timer run out, or got fantasy recharged like in formula E or mario cart, they atleast tell you when boost or magic starbar is recharged.

 

What exactly do you mean by "fantasy timers"? The specs given in the game are based on the guidelines given in real life, so they're not fantasy. Run your engine at max revs for too long and there was a good chance of engine failure. They didn't have special HUDs and warning messages in those days, so the pilot would have to rely on his own knowledge, his own timing, and his own ability to read his gauges. Learn the limitations of the aircraft you are flying and you too can operate it effectively without any big flashing warning messages when you're pushing it too hard.

 

Also, if you read just a few pilot bios from WWII, you'll know that engine failure was a pretty common occurrence even when you weren't pushing it to the limits. Random failures aren't simulated in BoX though, as far as I know.

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58 minutes ago, Goffik said:

What exactly do you mean by "fantasy timers"?

I think he's referring to how the game treats the time as more of a hard limit, rather than a guideline.

Funnily enough, and I say this only as a loose example and because it's interesting, I happened to re-read the book 'Ultimate Spitfire' (which is about the Griffon engined Spits) recently and in the chapter dealing with the MkXIV's development and testing it talks about the climb rate tests carried out by one of the prototypes and explicitly states "once again the the five minute limitation for the use of combat power was ignored for test purposes" and that it was slightly over boosted as well (+18.3lb)... with the plane taking 15 minutes at combat power to reach 40k feet, with 6 climb tests being done like this.
Granted, the book doesn't say if there was any problems with the engine resulting from the abuse and/or what engine maintenance was needed between each test. But it does show that engines could be run well beyond their combat power time limit without dying every single time.

Edited by HBPencil
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1 hour ago, Goffik said:

 

What exactly do you mean by "fantasy timers"? The specs given in the game are based on the guidelines given in real life, so they're not fantasy. Run your engine at max revs for too long and there was a good chance of engine failure. They didn't have special HUDs and warning messages in those days, so the pilot would have to rely on his own knowledge, his own timing, and his own ability to read his gauges. Learn the limitations of the aircraft you are flying and you too can operate it effectively without any big flashing warning messages when you're pushing it too hard.

 

Also, if you read just a few pilot bios from WWII, you'll know that engine failure was a pretty common occurrence even when you weren't pushing it to the limits. Random failures aren't simulated in BoX though, as far as I know.

In real life pilots had time limits to consider, but if they go over limits their engines would not blow up like its in game with this fantasy timers.

If like in game engines would blow up when pilot used over 3min or 5min or 15min, then this is most important thing in airplane to be thinking about in DF and pilot would have aditional gauges  or warning lights in cocpit with info how long he used emergancy or combat and so on... and they didnt have thouse, as they could go over limits and nothing would happend and when they land time would add to engine overhaule schedule.

 

When in game you have to be this strick because its game, and make that engines blow up if you go over safe time limit, then messages that tell you when alowed time limit is expired or recharged need to show in techchat like other more stupid messages that for example tell you that your overheating even though you can see that from gauges and steam behined your airplane. But you cant know when your timer is expired or recharged from any gauges in plane, as that was not so important in real airplanes like its in game with fantasy timers and mariocart type recharges.

 

So if you have airplane that no one wonts even as a gift like P-40, with multiple timers that will kill your engine and NO working messages that tells you when safe time run out so you know how to play the game inside this fantasy limitations, your basicly haveing broken airplanes and working airplanes, ones that have random failure build in compared to other airplanes like Yaks Laggs and so on, that dont have random failures becuase you never know if you go over fantasy limits or if you recharged mariocart boost again.

Edited by 77.CountZero
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1 hour ago, Goffik said:

What exactly do you mean by "fantasy timers"? The specs given in the game are based on the guidelines given in real life, so they're not fantasy. Run your engine at max revs for too long and there was a good chance of engine failure. They didn't have special HUDs and warning messages in those days, so the pilot would have to rely on his own knowledge, his own timing, and his own ability to read his gauges. Learn the limitations of the aircraft you are flying and you too can operate it effectively without any big flashing warning messages when you're pushing it too hard.

 

The Pilots Notes on engine limits are to preserve engines in non combat situations. The RAF General Pilots Notes states that limits can be ignored in combat.  In reality, running engines at high boost pressures just tended to wear them out excessively fast, not blow them up (though of course, some did).

 

With the Merlin 66 (fitted to our Spit IX), Rolls Royce conducted a series of test, running the engine on a bench at full throttle until it self destructed. Initially they found engines were dying at around the 27 hr mark but after some modifications, Rolls Royce got this up to 100 hr at full throttle for a standard engine taken straight off the production line. One Merlin 66 was run for 100 hrs at full throttle on the bench and was then fitted to a Spit and run for 100 hr at full throttle in air tests. That's 200 hrs at FULL THROTTLE without failure!

 

The Merlin 45 of the Spit V only majorly differed from the early Merlin 66 in carburetor and supercharger so I'd expect it to ONLY be good for 27-ish hours at full throttle. That it dies in this game between 3.15 and 4.30 minutes of full throttle is utter fantasy, and simply a mechanism to limit power output for gaming reasons.

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IIRC the Spit Mk V in the game starts on runway with radiator closed, need to be sure and open it up prior to taking off.

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Those damn timers have to go! Looking at the visibility issues, I wish all those efforts were spent on revising the engine limits and leaving visibility untouched. 

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6 hours ago, Arthur-A said:

Those damn timers have to go! Looking at the visibility issues, I wish all those efforts were spent on revising the engine limits and leaving visibility untouched. 

What makes you think it would be the same engineer/developer working in two very different natured tasks? Let's not fall into that slippery slope, we have no idea how they prioritize their resources and who is doing what instead of other things you like more.

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I think the op has a point, I did a test with the MKV Spitfire on the Kuban Summer map at 2000m (auto level) and these were the results:

At 3000 RPM, 12 boost with radiator fully open the engine was damaged at 5 minutes and totally failed at 12 minutes.

Oil temp was around 83 degrees when the engine was damaged and radiator was 100 degrees.  When the engine failed the oil was around 92 degrees and radiator 104 degrees.

 

At 16 psi boost engine damaged at 3 mins.  Oil temp was 92 degrees and radiator temp was 100.  Engine failed at 5 mins oil:95 rad:105.

 

Unless I'm understanding it wrong, the official pilot notes for the MKV state that these settings should be for only 5 minutes (actually for 16/18 psi).  However, at no time were the oil (105 degrees) and radiator (135 degrees) temp limits for this duration exceeded.

 

 

 

Edited by Jabo_68*
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58 minutes ago, Jabo_68* said:

I think the op has a point, I did a test with the MKV Spitfire on the Kuban Summer map and these were the results:

At 3000 RPM, 12 boost with radiator fully open the engine was damaged at 5 minutes and totally failed at 12 minutes.

Oil temp was around 83 degrees when the engine was damaged and radiator was 100 degrees.  When the engine failed the oil was around 92 degrees and radiator 104 degrees.

 

Unless I'm understanding it wrong, the official pilot notes for the MKV state that these settings should be for only 5 minutes.  However, at no time were the oil (105 degrees) and radiator (135 degrees) limits for this duration exceeded.

 

 

 

The Issue with most of these Engines isn't Oil or Water Temperature, but the Intake and Combustion Temperature, as well as Knock Rating. The Failure Points are Piston Rings, Valves, Spark Plugs and Valve Seats, mostly the Exhaust Side. When running High Power there is a lot of Soot/Lead Fouling Buildup all over these Parts.

 

On the Piston Rings this Soot replaces Oil, thus locally stopping Lubrication from happening, creating hot Spots, scoring on Cylinder Walls and Heat Buildup in the Piston which can lead to Holes in the Piston or Tons of Blowby into the Crankcase. That Blowby is Loss of Power.

 

Since our Supercharged (Yes, all ingame Engines except for WWI and U-2 are Supercharged, even the P-40, but Americans can't tell Turbos and Superchargers apart) Engines all have comparatively low Compression to allow for Boost (Merlin has around 6:1, the DBs around 7.5/7.3), meaning the Exhaust Gas at high Power Settings still is very hot and has a lot of Energy that flows over the Valves, heating them up.

Due to the very Sooty Burn at High Power Settings and the High Exhaust Gas Temps, the Exhaust Valves may build up glowing Soot, which can cause Pre-Ignition/Knock, reducing Power

 

This Soot also builds up on the Exhaust Valve Seats, which means the Valves doesn't close Properly anymore, which lowers Compression and allows for Combustion to blow over the Valve.

That is how burnt Valves happen, Compression is lost and so is Power.

 

And the Soot of Course also starts covering tbe Spark Plugs, which then keep glowing even after Combustion. They loose their Temper, deform, the Spark get worse and in the End there is either no Spark left of the Cylinder only runs on Glow Ignition, which means Knock/Pre-Ignition and loss of Power.

Edited by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann
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Knock/pre ignition at 3000rpm  when producing 1000/2000+ horse power can have catastrophic effects in a very short space of time, seconds rather than minutes 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

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