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[808_BOB]Dafak-man

Cooperative Career for Cooperative Servers

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I have been a fan of the series ever since I bought IL-2 1946. I had played all of Microsoft's Combat Flight Simulators and enjoyed each and every one of them. 1946 was a big step forward. It made me buy my first ever joystick and get immersed in the simulation genre. Now, a decade later, IL-2 Great Battles series has made me upgrade my sim gear again, making it my very first "simpit". However, for how good IL-2 has become, it's missing something. 1946 had this option to make dynamic cooperative campaigns that I could play cooperatively with friends. With multiple squadrons, different planes to fly and overall a really good option to play multiplayer. 

And this is the main topic of this thread. Why do we not have a cooperative career mode in IL-2 GB?
Due to a lot of medical issues I cannot play PvP and even if I could, the issues make it so much less enjoyable. Thus I am stuck playing Singplayer Career and Cooperative missions using Pratt's campaign generator software. But that software has its shortcomings, and, at the end of the day, it does not fully resemble what 1946 had.

I am pretty sure a lot of users would appreciate this. The people who are new to the game can have a nice environment where someone more experienced can teach them the ropes. And the people who can't play PvP but feel lonely flying with the AI squadron mates can finally enjoy the company of others who enjoy flying against AI.
I even find myself voice chatting on discord with random people just so I can do some sort of chit chat while flying a career mission, because it's a lonely feeling.

Alas, I am getting off track. The base for the career is there. The experience from 1946 is also there. All I'm asking for is to be put to good use and give us players who don't like/can't play PvP something else to do instead of just flying Career over and over again.

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PWCG.  You can play a cooperative career in either cooperative or competitive mode.  Cooperative mode means everybody is on the same side and same squadron.  Competitive mode has players on any side, so you can fly against human opponents in a career setting.

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2 hours ago, III/JG53Frankyboy said:

i made my COOP missions in ´46 manually, so i can be wrong..

But was that coop generator software not made by third party guys?

Yes, there are a few cooperative mission generators out there, but mostly only allow all players to be in the same flight. Imagine it this way:

Have a MP server with multiple objectives, but only one side of the fight is playable by people.

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Some kind of cooperative dogfight server would be indeed nice. Easy to jump on without any fiddeling hosting for after work sessions with friends! :drinks:

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There is an intrinsic conflict in what is being asked here.  People want to be part of a campaign (career?) but want to jump in anywhere at any time. 

 

Are we talking anonymous pilot in a campaign or a career?  If career, what does it mean to have a career in a flight sim?  You take on a persona and that persona goes through life as a real pilot would.  That means that you are one "person".   You are part of a squadron.  Your squadron flies a certain plane.  How do you reconcile that with jumping on with a mission prepared for you at any time?

 

In order to accomplish this:

1. The server would have to have a lobby that allowed players to form a flight.

2. The server would have to have a registration system for personas.

3. When a flight was requested the server would have to create 1 to n flights - one flight per active squadron for each persona represented in the request.

4. The server would have to create and inject mission profiles into a running server in real time, without messing up missions already in progress.

5. The server would have to calculate results in real time, updating world information with respect to who was shot down, etc.

6. The server's time would have to correspond to clock time.  A campaign would actually take over three years to complete.

 

It could be done, but don't underestimate what is being asked.  The list above is the 30000 foot view and almost certainly not complete at that.  Start getting into details and it would be quite an undertaking. To have a persistent world, available at all times, with perfect record keeping, no tears in the perceived reality ... not easy.  Solve the problem by making it always daylight?  That might be the best solution but it is limiting,  Do something weird with time?   People on the server will experience it,.  One example of one possible issue.

 

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30 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

There is an intrinsic conflict in what is being asked here.  People want to be part of a campaign (career?) but want to jump in anywhere at any time. 

 

Are we talking anonymous pilot in a campaign or a career?  If career, what does it mean to have a career in a flight sim?  You take on a persona and that persona goes through life as a real pilot would.  That means that you are one "person".   You are part of a squadron.  Your squadron flies a certain plane.  How do you reconcile that with jumping on with a mission prepared for you at any time?

 

In order to accomplish this:

1. The server would have to have a lobby that allowed players to form a flight.

2. The server would have to have a registration system for personas.

3. When a flight was requested the server would have to create 1 to n flights - one flight per active squadron for each persona represented in the request.

4. The server would have to create and inject mission profiles into a running server in real time, without messing up missions already in progress.

5. The server would have to calculate results in real time, updating world information with respect to who was shot down, etc.

6. The server's time would have to correspond to clock time.  A campaign would actually take over three years to complete.

 

It could be done, but don't underestimate what is being asked.  The list above is the 30000 foot view and almost certainly not complete at that.  Start getting into details and it would be quite an undertaking. To have a persistent world, available at all times, with perfect record keeping, no tears in the perceived reality ... not easy.  Solve the problem by making it always daylight?  That might be the best solution but it is limiting,  Do something weird with time?   People on the server will experience it,.  One example of one possible issue.

 

 

Honestly, I just want a cooperative career mode. Something like how your software works Patrick but using the already existing career mode that IL-2 GB has. You have your squadron mates who can join your mission and fly and have their victories recorded and it progresses through the war, just like normal Career, but cooperative.

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32 minutes ago, [808_BOB]Dafak-man said:

 

Honestly, I just want a cooperative career mode. Something like how your software works Patrick but using the already existing career mode that IL-2 GB has. You have your squadron mates who can join your mission and fly and have their victories recorded and it progresses through the war, just like normal Career, but cooperative.

 

So why not try PWCG?  If you don't like it provide feedback.  I am actively coding and more than happy to take suggestions.

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49 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

So why not try PWCG?  If you don't like it provide feedback.  I am actively coding and more than happy to take suggestions.


Patrick, I have been using PWCG for the past 2 years just because there is no cooperative alternative directly from the devs. I cannot thank your software enough for what it has done for my enjoyment of IL-2 GB. Problem is, I cannot fly a mission generated with PWCG with more than 5 friends even though my Internet is pretty good and my PC is quite decent as well.
 

Another issue is the constant closing and opening of a server in that case, as I am required to switch missions. It would be nice if we could load one mission after another from careers without having users leaving and rejoining the server

 

 I just want to know if we could have the careers in IL-2 cooperative.

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27 minutes ago, [808_BOB]Dafak-man said:


Patrick, I have been using PWCG for the past 2 years just because there is no cooperative alternative directly from the devs. I cannot thank your software enough for what it has done for my enjoyment of IL-2 GB. Problem is, I cannot fly a mission generated with PWCG with more than 5 friends even though my Internet is pretty good and my PC is quite decent as well.
 

Another issue is the constant closing and opening of a server in that case, as I am required to switch missions. It would be nice if we could load one mission after another from careers without having users leaving and rejoining the server

 

 I just want to know if we could have the careers in IL-2 cooperative.

 

Others have managed quite a few participants, so that problem might be solvable.  Ask on the PWCG sub forum to see what others are doing.

 

Loading multiple missions is one of the issues with the original ask.  In a career, state changes based on the results of each mission, just as it would in real life.  If you make two mission with the same pilots how do you handle the situation where one of the pilots got killed in the first mission and is included in the second?  That also extends to equipment.

 

Anyhow, I get the desire for an officially supported version.  I do want people to know that much of what is wanted is available right now.

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You know i think perhaps a compromise could be met.  I have been toying with the above idea myself but I think it can be done in a different way.  I think what would be nice would be a dynamic coop mission rather than a campaign.  For an always online system as @PatrickAWlson mentioned is a major undertaking.  How do you keep track of how has died and who is still alive and all of the other major issues with that system.  A dynamic mission however would be something like coconut's server missions where there are objectives and completing said objectives affects the battlefield.  Or war thunder's enduring conflict mission.  Its a coop version of the dynamic multiplayer server missions for those people who just want to enjoy the sim without getting shot down every 2 minutes by people with hundreds of hours of experience.

 

The mission would need to have multiple objectives with other objectives that trigger after the initial ones have been completed.  The main difficulty with this is the AI.  They need to have a lot of triggers active to not only keep the play-field clear of unnecessary AI, but also have them respond to their own objectives and change when the objective is completed.  Its not horrible, but definitely a nightmare when it comes to keeping all of the triggers synchronized and would require a lot of testing to get just one mission right.

 

If someone would be willing to work on this mission i would be willing to look into the hardware side of things.  I personally have been trying to work with this mission editor, however I am not good enough with it to be able to tackle a mission of this scale nor do i have the time on hand to sit down and practice with this given my current situation. 

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If you don’t want a cooperative career, but just a string of coop missions, you can simply use a mission generator and create these missions in advance and put them behind each other in rotation. But you will not have your pilot careers tracked as in PWCG.

 

See here: https://sites.google.com/view/il2-great-battles-emg/

 

Edited by SYN_Vander
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I have never had the ease and flexibility of SYN_Vander's Easy Mission Generator in any other flightsim.

Using it we can, in minutes, create Allied + Axis single/coop/dogfight mission with all kinds of objectives.

In Multiplayer we can rotate these EMG CO-OP-MP missions and make it look a bit like a ... campaign.

 (but this, of course, does not make it a PWCG persistent campaign-type)

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The Dangerdogz use Vanders excellent tool 2 times a week, in fact we are right now. I'm only typing this now, because a squad mate shot me right in the face, and i'm waiting for the next Co-op!!!!

 

I highly recommend amongst friends and squads.

 

We're also about to start a campaign with Patrick's excellent tool once a week as well, a P 38 co-op campaign.

Edited by DD_fruitbat

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361st uses both mission generators, we like Pats because of AAR it provides and Vanders for the cold starts on the ramp.  We fly each at least once a week. 

 

Hoss

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On 12/9/2019 at 12:03 PM, PatrickAWlson said:

There is an intrinsic conflict in what is being asked here.  People want to be part of a campaign (career?) but want to jump in anywhere at any time. 

 

Are we talking anonymous pilot in a campaign or a career?  If career, what does it mean to have a career in a flight sim?  You take on a persona and that persona goes through life as a real pilot would.  That means that you are one "person".   You are part of a squadron.  Your squadron flies a certain plane.  How do you reconcile that with jumping on with a mission prepared for you at any time?

 

What our squadron is really looking for is:

  • An interesting and dynamic world that evolves: AI flights get scheduled, ground units move, objectives get captured.
  • That the results of one mission carry over into the next and effect the final outcome in some way.

We're perfectly happy to (indeed we would much prefer to) work out our own mission plans: decide what our objective is, who's going to fly what planes in what groups, and so on. I'm sure a lot of squadrons have very similar requirements. It feels like a fairly simple evolution of the current career campaign system would meet those needs. Basically like TAW but against the AI rather than other players. This could also act as a first step to producing something more complex such as what you're describing.

Edited by Tomsk

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@Tomsk I would say that PWCG gives you 80% of that.  You can create a coop campaign with all of your friends in a coop squadron.   

 

PWCG does not let you work out your own mission plan. 

- It does allow you to alter the assigned mission in some ways.

- It does allow you to scrub a mission plan and create another one if you just don't like the one that was generated.

PWCG does not alter history.  I.e. frontlines, who wins, etc. are not changed by your actions.

PWCG does not persist environmental damage (blown up bridge, airfield, etc.) to the next mission.

 

PWCG will generate missions for you. 

PWCG does persist equipment and personnel losses.

PWCG does handle promotions and medals.

PWCG does handle improvement of AI pilots.

PWCG does do out of mission simulation of events for AI pilots not involved in your mission.

PWCG does allow you to fly from Moscow to end of war.

PWCG does allow your human players to create a new persona in the campaign if their current persona is killed or incapacitated.

PWCG is in continuous development, so if there is something out there that has popular backing it could get added.

PWCG does allow you to dynamically add and remove human participants in your campaign.

 

As is true with many things, PWCG might not do everything that you want exactly the way that you want it to, but it does get you almost all the way there.  Setting up a campaign for yourself and your friends can probably done in 15 minutes or less (usual SP campaign takes about 2 minutes to generate.  Coop is a bit longer because you have to make more pilots).  Once that 15 minute process is complete you and your friends can start a campaign that could realistically take years to finish.

 

 

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20 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

@Tomsk I would say that PWCG gives you 80% of that.  You can create a coop campaign with all of your friends in a coop squadron.   

 

So I have used and loved PWCG for solo play, and I have to give a massive thanks for making it. However as a squadron we have tried using PWCG, but it's not really hit the spot for us so far. We have different people wanting to fly different planes: for example some people want to fly bombers, some people want to fly escort fighters. Not having the freedom to have flights choose their own mission has proved to be a significant hindrance.

 

We have also found the PWCG briefings a bit lacking at times. For example we were assigned a bombing mission with just the description "attack transport infrastructure" with some waypoints to follow in the briefing. We flew the waypoints but we never worked out what it was we were supposed to attack, so we flew back to base. It was a pretty unsatisfying mission.

 

Overall we've been making more use of Vander's Easy Mission Generator because that gives a choice of objectives and the freedom to approach them how we'd like. This lets us choose our objective and organise ourselves as appropriate, which works much better for us. However, the downside of that is the missions are not "joined up" in any way, giving no sense of progression.

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@Tomsk Thanks for the feedback.  Coop is a relatively new add on to PWCG and I appreciate any feedback that might make it better.  A mission planning section sounds like an intriguing possibility for SP and cooperative mode.  Would not be good for competitive mode because you would not want the ability to plan your opponent's mission :) 

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I think what people want is what the new Mechwarrior game offers:

 

your friend is playing in his campaign, and he asks for friends to take the place of his AI pilots. 

 

That's the feature I'd like to be added in the game. I'd like to play my career and invite my friends to join as one of the AI planes. Simple!

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6 hours ago, Sybreed said:

your friend is playing in his campaign, and he asks for friends to take the place of his AI pilots. 

 

That would also be great, and should be very simple to implement.

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