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AI sees through vegetation


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I was very suprised to see AI canons barrage throught dense bushes in second mission of Soviet campaign. It was second objective - i was going straight to it from first one, enemy cannons was covered by small forest, i was trying to get around it, and all "bushes started to punch my armor". 

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50 minutes ago, vlad_8011 said:

I was very suprised to see AI canons barrage throught dense bushes in second mission of Soviet campaign. It was second objective - i was going straight to it from first one, enemy cannons was covered by small forest, i was trying to get around it, and all "bushes started to punch my armor". 

yep, nothing new

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Yep

It also makes mission design more difficult, since this must be taken into account when placing units, waypoints, etc.

 

I'm not sure there's a fix for it in the short term, as it has to do with the nature of the trees vs terrain in the game engine.

Basically you have to script the mission so that trees don't come into play when units can "see" each other/not blocked by the terrain itself...not easy.

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On 12/10/2019 at 12:14 PM, Gambit21 said:

Yep

It also makes mission design more difficult, since this must be taken into account when placing units, waypoints, etc.

 

I'm not sure there's a fix for it in the short term, as it has to do with the nature of the trees vs terrain in the game engine.

Basically you have to script the mission so that trees don't come into play when units can "see" each other/not blocked by the terrain itself...not easy.

Hope it can get fixed. This might some of those things that will eat up cpu when determining whether something is visible or not. 

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I guess it should be called: Sees AND SHOOTS through vegetation. What makes it worse is that for shots from player-controlled tanks, those are stopped by even the flimsiest parts of trees (twigs and leaves), not just the trunk and the big branches.

 

This, and the invisible trees, and the engines made of glass, have been really crass failings of TC so far. I have been persistently wondering how, for release after release, little things get improved, and often just made more complicated, while those huuuuge issues are just not tackled.

 

And this shouldn't be so hard to fix. I can see there is a lot of complexity in the topic of making an AI unaware of things that are in 3D space, but which it can't "see". However, since the code for making player-controlled shots impact and explode on trees is already there, I don't think it would be so hard to apply it to AI.

 

Edited by stupor-mundi
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On 12/9/2019 at 8:14 PM, Gambit21 said:

Yep

It also makes mission design more difficult, since this must be taken into account when placing units, waypoints, etc.

 

I'm not sure there's a fix for it in the short term, as it has to do with the nature of the trees vs terrain in the game engine.

Basically you have to script the mission so that trees don't come into play when units can "see" each other/not blocked by the terrain itself...not easy.

 

Yes, not easy and very time consuming.

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1 hour ago, stupor-mundi said:

I guess it should be called: Sees AND SHOOTS through vegetation. What makes it worse is that for shots from player-controlled tanks, those are stopped by even the flimsiest parts of trees (twigs and leaves), not just the trunk and the big branches.

 

This, and the invisible trees, and the engines made of glass, have been really crass failings of TC so far. I have been persistently wondering how, for release after release, little things get improved, and often just made more complicated, while those huuuuge issues are just not tackled.

 

And this shouldn't be so hard to fix. I can see there is a lot of complexity in the topic of making an AI unaware of things that are in 3D space, but which it can't "see". However, since the code for making player-controlled shots impact and explode on trees is already there, I don't think it would be so hard to apply it to AI.

 

 

I think trees only stop HE rounds.  Seems AP rounds do go through trees, just as they go through some buildings.  I always use AP when trees are a factor, even for soft targets.

 

My guess is that the Ai is shooting AP rounds because that is what would be called for when engaging armor.

 

I wouldn't mind the invisible trees if they didn't stuff up your tank.  If they only stopped you and not wrecked your tank they wouldn't be that big an issue.  Perhaps with this latest update the tanks are sturdier?  I haven't been playing this game since the update and don't know.

 

It's reasonable to ask the developers to make the tanks stand up to trees if they can't fix the invisible ones.  In fact, the tanks should be strong enough to stand up to almost all head on impacts.  Hitting a village well, or simple parked cart can break a tank engine, and gears.  Hopefully, this was fixed with the latest update.  If not..then we all have a right to complain about our tanks being weaker than most ordinary trucks.

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20 hours ago, klunker said:

I think trees only stop HE rounds.  Seems AP rounds do go through trees,

Unfortunately, that's not entirely true. There is something quantitative going on, apparently depending on some 'density' measure or such, of the tree, at the point of impact. It's often possible to observe this, with a small visual impact, and the round continuing. And the round is often deflected.

However, hitting the trunk of a large tree centrally will stop a round or at least remove nearly all of its energy. It's easy to get the wrong impression on that because the tree's collision model is often slightly misplaced (offset). (No need to mention that the gun's barrel is offset vs. the sight, I'm taking that into account).

I've been in countless standoffs vs AIs, where some vegetation was in the way, preventing me from hitting the AI, whilst the AI shoots and hits unhindered.

On many maps, you get killed by pak and flak which shoot through entire forests.

 

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2 hours ago, stupor-mundi said:

Unfortunately, that's not entirely true. There is something quantitative going on, apparently depending on some 'density' measure or such, of the tree, at the point of impact. It's often possible to observe this, with a small visual impact, and the round continuing. And the round is often deflected.

However, hitting the trunk of a large tree centrally will stop a round or at least remove nearly all of its energy. It's easy to get the wrong impression on that because the tree's collision model is often slightly misplaced (offset). (No need to mention that the gun's barrel is offset vs. the sight, I'm taking that into account).

I've been in countless standoffs vs AIs, where some vegetation was in the way, preventing me from hitting the AI, whilst the AI shoots and hits unhindered.

On many maps, you get killed by pak and flak which shoot through entire forests.

 

Yep, I just tested it and you're right. 

 

 

23 hours ago, klunker said:

This, and the invisible trees, and the engines made of glass, have been really crass failings of TC so far. I have been persistently wondering how, for release after release, little things get improved, and often just made more complicated, while those huuuuge issues are just not tackled.

 

I also tested hitting trees with the tank and the engine is kaput just as before.  The press on the new update indicated they strengthened the mechanical components.  Evidently, not enough.

The Tank has the capability of knocking down tree's and building on the new Prokhorovka and Rhineland maps, but the tanks still suffer severe damage.  So again, what you said is spot on and is something that everyone who bought TC should fire a flare at the developers to get their attention. 

 

How and where do we all support your complaint so that it will be comprehended by the TC developers?

 

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5 hours ago, klunker said:

I also tested hitting trees with the tank and the engine is kaput just as before

 

I don't know a lot about the engine mounting of those WW2 tanks. I.e. , at what speed an engine would get damaged, if you ran straight into an infinitely hard, unyielding object, let's say, a granite outcrop. Who knows, maybe if you did that, at 15 kph, the engine would get damaged. I wonder, maybe the devs dug up some historical data?

But it's a problem that all objects in TC are modeled as infinitely hard and stiff (except the new huts in the Prokhorovka map). So you run with your 40 ton tank into a 10 year old birch tree, it stops the tank hard, as if it were made of tungsten and had a concrete foundation.

It's quite comical when you run into such a little tree at full speed, downhill, the tank is thrown around in a cartoonish fashion, leaving most of the crew severely injured.  There are also trees which can be pushed over. But not all little trees can be, and some much thicker ones can, no idea what they did there...

 

 

Edited by stupor-mundi
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While I can see how identifying individual trees (to determine if the AI should see through it) could be a huge challenge and CPU hog, I don’t understand why a large block of trees (e.g. a batch of trees in a forest) couldn’t be treated the same as a large structure/building, which would block the AI’s “view” through said block.  This would be a huge improvement.

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10 hours ago, AKA_Relent said:

While I can see how identifying individual trees (to determine if the AI should see through it) could be a huge challenge and CPU hog, I don’t understand why a large block of trees (e.g. a batch of trees in a forest) couldn’t be treated the same as a large structure/building, which would block the AI’s “view” through said block.  This would be a huge improvement.

Of course it is doable and is done in most games. I've seen games like Steel Beast and Graviteam Mius use a fair amount of CPU that appear to be to calculation in the background which seem to increase depending on the number of units. 

 

Is there a similar issue with AI planes that they can spot and shoot at targets through vegetation? I'm not sure how easy it is to spot this or not. 

 

Does the devs sometime read/join this discussions? It would be great if they could chip in with their thinking on this aspect of TC as it appear to be a sore point for players. 

Edited by inexus
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As it is stands now AI placement has to be carefully set to avoid as much of the LOS issue as possible.  I've suggested a directional input selection when setting up a specific AI weapon to limit its direction of fire.  This way you would be able to guide the AI field of fire in areas that might pose  LOS issues. As it stands now, the weapon has no specific firing lanes. I believe you could avoid a lot of problems with something like this added to the Mission Builder.  I mean why would an AT gun be rotated to fire through a copse of trees when in reality it would be set and zeroed for specific firing lanes...clear lanes of fire.

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Is there a place where we can see reported bugs for TC? Has any devs responded to this issue? 

 

I want to get TC but not if the AI has this ability as it ruins it for playing SP. 

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I’ve added a post regarding this issue and my suggestion above, to the IL2 Developer Assistance > Suggestions thread:  

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/767-thread-to-gather-your-suggestions/?do=findComment&comment=923363

 

I've also added a post regarding this issue to the IL2 Developer Assistance > Complaints thread:

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/60727-tank-crew-ai-sees-and-shoots-through-thick-vegetationtrees/

 

Feel free to add further comments to that post to increase the visibility of this issue, and to add to it's importance/priority (I would think the more people voice concern, the more likely it'll bubble to the top of the list of priorities for TC (or at least get us a response from the developers as to why it is as it is now).

 

Edited by AKA_Relent
added another related thread for reference
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19 hours ago, inexus said:

Is there a place where we can see reported bugs for TC? Has any devs responded to this issue? 

 

I want to get TC but not if the AI has this ability as it ruins it for playing SP. 

 

This issue has been complained about again and again. Of course the devs know about it.

The fact that we've never heard back on this issue simply means they prioritize something else, probably new features, over the fixing of the most crippling issues.

Same with the invisible trees.

 

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3 hours ago, AKA_Relent said:

I’ve added a post regarding this issue and my suggestion above, to the IL2 Developer Assistance > Suggestions thread:  

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/767-thread-to-gather-your-suggestions/?do=findComment&comment=923363

 

I've also added a post regarding this issue to the IL2 Developer Assistance > Complaints thread:

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/60727-tank-crew-ai-sees-and-shoots-through-thick-vegetationtrees/

 

Feel free to add further comments to that post to increase the visibility of this issue, and to add to it's importance/priority (I would think the more people voice concern, the more likely it'll bubble to the top of the list of priorities for TC (or at least get us a response from the developers as to why it is as it is now).

 

Great! Maybe add that the issue was reported/seen 4 months ago. 

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On 4/10/2020 at 4:24 PM, klunker said:

 

It's reasonable to ask the developers to make the tanks stand up to trees if they can't fix the invisible ones.  In fact, the tanks should be strong enough to stand up to almost all head on impacts.  Hitting a village well, or simple parked cart can break a tank engine, and gears.  Hopefully, this was fixed with the latest update.  If not..

Ah, sadly not it seems.

 

I played around with TC a while ago and have just come back with the intention of playing more.  Couple days ago I jumped into a basic QMB to map controls, gain familiarity etc.  Having taken out some enemy trucks and a staff car, I was just driving around and decided to ram the wrecked staff car... Result was one flipped over Tiger tank; don’t think the wreck budged an inch.

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On 4/19/2020 at 9:22 PM, Black_Bodkin said:

Ah, sadly not it seems.

 

I played around with TC a while ago and have just come back with the intention of playing more.  Couple days ago I jumped into a basic QMB to map controls, gain familiarity etc.  Having taken out some enemy trucks and a staff car, I was just driving around and decided to ram the wrecked staff car... Result was one flipped over Tiger tank; don’t think the wreck budged an inch.

I just tried DCS with the ww2 asset pack on the Normandy map. The tanks will go in mostly a straight line through anything - buildings, trees, even each other.

 

At least IL2 got some physics in place; Just need some improvements :)

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On 4/21/2020 at 9:58 AM, inexus said:

Just an observation: DCS has the same issue...Reddit post link AI shooting through vegetation. 

A long time since I played with DCS Combined Arms, so it may have changed a lot, but I gave up on it when I realised the tanks have a HP bar and yes, I also recall the AI’s unerring ability to see through forests.  ‘Top end study sim’ yea....

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2 hours ago, Black_Bodkin said:

A long time since I played with DCS Combined Arms, so it may have changed a lot, but I gave up on it when I realised the tanks have a HP bar and yes, I also recall the AI’s unerring ability to see through forests.  ‘Top end study sim’ yea....

 

The planes are top-end and they are also working on a DM for their WW2 airplanes at the moment. It's just their CA module hasn't been updated for years. It's mostly there as static targets for bombing runs :)

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