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Venturi

P-47 Toughness Analysis

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Excellent video analysis on the topic, with period source documents and images. 
 

Highly recommended.

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aCNt3J65UqE

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Thanks for posting, P 47 DM needs serious work in IL2 GB.

Also it would be nice if turbo super charger damage would be modeled? 

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6 minutes ago, SCG_motoadve said:

Thanks for posting, P 47 DM needs serious work in IL2 GB.

Also it would be nice if turbo super charger damage would be modeled? 

It is, at least I think. I've seen the tech chat say turbo damaged but my engine usually dies soon after so I don't know if it really has any effect.

Another thing I wonder is if hitting the ductwork is considered as damaging the turbo or is that a separate thing.

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Just now, Legioneod said:

It is, at least I think. I've seen the tech chat say turbo damaged but my engine usually dies soon after so I don't know if it really has any effect.

Another thing I wonder is if hitting the ductwork is considered as damaging the turbo or is that a separate thing.

I wondered about the turbo damage ,dont fly the P47 , see no motivation the way it is modeled currently.

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Just now, SCG_motoadve said:

I wondered about the turbo damage ,dont fly the P47 , see no motivation the way it is modeled currently.

Agreed. I struggle to fly it as well just because of the DM, I have more chance of surviving hits in a P-51 or P-38.

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At minute 2:38 researcher says he has never found a single case of wings coming off in a P47!

 

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9 minutes ago, SCG_motoadve said:

At minute 2:38 researcher says he has never found a single case of wings coming off in a P47!

 

Yep. Here's a combat report of a pilot who got hit by multiple 20mm in his wing and the wing stayed on. Wings coming off happened I'm sure but it certainly wasn't a common occurrence like it is in-game. He got hit by over 4 20mm, it doesn't say exactly how many but it was at least 5-6 20mm rounds from what the report says.

 

353-duncan-12may44.jpg

Edited by Legioneod
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Turbo charger damage is modeled. During one of the earlier patches there was a bug that caused the turbo to speed up indefinitely, and after about 15m of over speed it failed. The overall effect was the same as just dumping the waste gates: i. e. you just got no boost, so not a huge failure mode.

In theory it was possible for a gas or oil leak to spill into the turbine and catch fire, but I haven't seen anything indicating that that happened in service.

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49 minutes ago, SCG_motoadve said:

At minute 2:38 researcher says he has never found a single case of wings coming off in a P47!

 

 

That’s because if it ever did happen, it was an extraordinarily rare freak occurrence.

 

 

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49 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

That’s because if it ever did happen, it was an extraordinarily rare freak occurrence.

 

 

In game I got my p47's wing sawed off by a 110g2's rear gunner. In a 400mph 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock pass. In his cone of fire for a split second. I'm not usually one to complain about subjective performance of a plane against anecdotal accounts, but this was a bit off.

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1 hour ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

In game I got my p47's wing sawed off by a 110g2's rear gunner. In a 400mph 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock pass. In his cone of fire for a split second. I'm not usually one to complain about subjective performance of a plane against anecdotal accounts, but this was a bit off.

 

That shouldn’t happen - to put it mildly.

You’d be as likely to de-wing a Jug with a staple gun.

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If an overwhelming amount of anecdotal accounts agree on a common narrative there is some truth to be considered there and maybe our sim's representation needs some more evaluation on why it would differ so harshly from these accounts. (This goes for engine and structure in this particular case)

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I recently got some engine damage in a 47.  Checked for smoke and there was none.  Reduced RPM anyways and tried to crawl home.  Engine seized about 30 seconds later.  I've flown a 109 spewing black smoke and canopy covered in oil for a lot longer.

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My person favorite. 
 

500lb bomb the P47 was carrying dropped and exploded on landing. 
 

Wings did not rip off:

 

 

849AFF03-F2C3-46A2-8454-3BC8E13A8AD3.jpeg

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44 minutes ago, Venturi said:

My person favorite. 
 

500lb bomb the P47 was carrying dropped and exploded on landing. 
 

Wings did not rip off:

 

 

 

Still surprises me that the pilot survived that.

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I saw the damage texture file in P-47D28 still in 2K(The only one in Bobp planes), maybe they're planning to build a special DM for P-47.

Edited by Oyster_KAI
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3 hours ago, Legioneod said:

Still surprises me that the pilot survived that.

Thanks for mentioning that!

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11 hours ago, Oyster_KAI said:

I saw the damage texture file in P-47D28 still in 2K(The only one in Bobp planes), maybe they're planning to build a special DM for P-47.

Is it still in 2k? I thought they were all updated.

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12 hours ago, Legioneod said:

Still surprises me that the pilot survived that.

 

Yeah, considering our current pilots are dropping like flies from wing HE hits. 

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18 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

Is it still in 2k? I thought they were all updated.

 

It is in 4K as is all BoBP planes.

 

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I don't get why they haven't worked on this. It's literally the weakest plane damage wise in the whole plane set.

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20 hours ago, 216th_Jordan said:

If an overwhelming amount of anecdotal accounts agree on a common narrative there is some truth to be considered there and maybe our sim's representation needs some more evaluation on why it would differ so harshly from these accounts. (This goes for engine and structure in this particular case)

 

It is not just anecdotal accounts, but also the US Ballistics studies, with which I compared the P-47 in my tests.  Game single HE hits are at least twice as likely to cause a loss when striking the engine area or prop disc, and do it much faster than in the US test analysis, hits to wings frequently cause fuel tank leaks: in the US tests only direct or very close hits were assessed as being able to damage self-sealing fuel tanks.  Damage to pilots and structure were much more closely matched.

 

So, in important respects, the damage effects of HE on the P-47 are nowhere near the best estimate of the US testers.  I strongly suspect that this is a generic rather than a P-47 issue, down to how the game calculates HE splinter damage effects on engines and fuel cells, although the radial vs in-line issue might also be a factor. 

 

Given that we have well documented contemporary data it seems strange that the developers seem to want to ignore it, but the DM seems to be one of those areas where fidelity to the data is simply not considered to be important, compared to the subjective perception of the players. In this it is similar to gun sounds and gun flashes: both of which started as more or less realistic renderings and were changed to become more "Hollywood". 

 

Given that this game is part simulation and part entertainment product this is a reasonable approach to take, although not one I much like in this case. 

 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, -LUCKY-ThanksSkeletor said:

I am going to cry if the razorback jug is like this as well. 

 

I'll be just as upset if the current way the turbocharger/throttle/prop operation model is kept as well.   Turbo 100% and forget it, throttle + prop interlocked all the time seems to be the way to go.  But, that's a different story for a different thread, perhaps. 

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9 hours ago, ICDP said:

 

It is in 4K as is all BoBP planes.

 

Hello @ICDP , please check the file"p47d28_d.dds", it's a 2K file.I thought it's a secret plan!?

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31 minutes ago, Oyster_KAI said:

Hello @ICDP , please check the file"p47d28_d.dds", it's a 2K file.I thought it's a secret plan!?

Same goes for the A20 and the LaGG3. 4K skins but 2K damage skins.

 

All other planes in the sim that have 4K skins have 4K damage skins.

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4 hours ago, unreasonable said:

Given that this game is part simulation and part entertainment product this is a reasonable approach to take, although not one I much like in this case. 

 

 

 

 


Accessible realism sells. It is appreciated by all, even by the ignorant. Only the malicious or those who seek gaming instead of simulation want otherwise.


I for one would like the historical advantages of the P-47 to be realized, chief among these are its toughness.

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23 minutes ago, Venturi said:


Accessible realism sells. It is appreciated by all, even by the ignorant. Only the malicious or those who seek gaming instead of simulation want otherwise.


I for one would like the historical advantages of the P-47 to be realized, chief among these are its toughness.

 

I would like the sim to model damage as accurately as possible just as much as you do.  Otherwise I would not have spent many hours devising and running tests to see whether it does. Apparently, based on Jason's comments on my test thread, the majority of players, weighted by their feedback, "like the DM", so every thing is just fine.  The subjective feedback of the players is, apparently, more important than documented results in this area. A curious contrast to the developers' attitude towards FMs.

 

Some vocal players, especially in MP, see the game as a tactical puzzle like chess:  if they achieve a shooting position at the right time and press the trigger, they think they have "won" and expect to see damage feedback reflecting that, not their target limping off to  be force landed twenty minutes later. Then you have the mineshell=tactical nuke brigade, who simply cannot accept that a Soviet plane hit by a mineshell can do anything other than explode as an untermensch should. The fact is, I have lost count of the number of threads in which people espouse violently expressed views about the DM, the vast majority of whom are completely clueless. When show data, they simply refuse to accept it - often with some personal abuse thrown in  for good measure.  

 

The series is a game, sold to the most part to young people most of whom know little or nothing about the subject, although, to be fair,  a few are capable of learning.  Whether it is selling well or not is an interesting question given the current doubts. My conclusion is simply that the developers, naturally enough, since they have divorce maintenance, mortgages, substances  and mistresses to pay for, care more about maintaining sufficient sales to stay afloat  than they do about realism, and if sales need instant gratification shoot downs, that is what the DM will deliver, whether you or I like it or not.

 

 

 

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I always felt than for all aircraft they physically break up too easy, wings coming off are a common occurrence, was this true? Is more damaged caused becuase in the sim it is easier to get guns on target and therefore cause a lot more damage than might have happened in real life, or are the planes made weaker? 

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Its damage modeling, so no mather what devs do there will be people not pleased with it.

They had tuff airplanes after one update, wings were tuff, and then many players questioned that, so it was changed to easyer wings falling, now that is questioned. It will never end no mather what they do. To me P-47 can look like fragile airplane (week enegine when damaged and wings fall of easy), to others all is 110% ok. Atleast airplane looks great and is nice to look at its skins and leve it in hangar untll better days for it come, theres other tuffer airplanes to play with.

Edited by 77.CountZero

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1 hour ago, 77.CountZero said:

Its damage modeling, so no mather what devs do there will be people not pleased with it.

They had tuff airplanes after one update, wings were tuff, and then many players questioned that, so it was changed to easyer wings falling, now that is questioned. It will never end no mather what they do. To me P-47 can look like fragile airplane (week enegine when damaged and wings fall of easy), to others all is 110% ok. Atleast airplane looks great and is nice to look at its skins and leve it in hangar untll better days for it come, theres other tuffer airplanes to play with.

 

 

Well, i think the least thing that is reasonable is to look at parts flying off at dives. As there is credible evidence that this seldom, if ever happened on the model we have now. 

I think it is a reasonable think to ask to be addressed, or at least, explained why it is modeled it this way. 

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We had the best DM for a short period.

Lost of whine, people wanted instant gratification, so now we have wings coming off P47s, FW 190s and the 110s easily, which feels arcade and disappointing.

 

Now there is a new thread complaining the P51 is too tough, I hope they dont modify and make crystal wings on the P51 and ruin it too, that would be very disappointing and a move towards arcade instead of historical simulation.

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16 minutes ago, SCG_motoadve said:

We had the best DM for a short period.

Lost of whine, people wanted instant gratification, so now we have wings coming off P47s, FW 190s and the 110s easily, which feels arcade and disappointing.

 

Now there is a new thread complaining the P51 is too tough, I hope they dont modify and make crystal wings on the P51 and ruin it too, that would be very disappointing and a move towards arcade instead of historical simulation.

 

Yep, it’s a shame that the people who want instant kills were listened to instead of people who want a more realistic approach.

 

Im not knocking the Il2 Devs but it’s obvious that the P-47 DM isn’t modeled as it should be, we have real test/combat reports and photos to back this up.

 

Hopefully when DCS comes out its its improved DM (looks promising so far) it’ll cause Il2 team to take a look at their own.

 

 

Edited by Legioneod

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11 hours ago, unreasonable said:

 

I would like the sim to model damage as accurately as possible just as much as you do.  Otherwise I would not have spent many hours devising and running tests to see whether it does. Apparently, based on Jason's comments on my test thread, the majority of players, weighted by their feedback, "like the DM", so every thing is just fine.  The subjective feedback of the players is, apparently, more important than documented results in this area. A curious contrast to the developers' attitude towards FMs.

 

I think you're a bit harsh here and Jason's comment is taken out of context. FM and DM are totally different beasts and the devs have shown multiple times that they care about accurate results, but DM is usually vastly more complex than FM. I'm quite sure that we'll see improvements to the P-47 DM and DM in general in the future (Thanks Tank Crew!). But of course I'd wish for it sooner rather than later.

 

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13 hours ago, unreasonable said:

The series is a game, sold to the most part to young people most of whom know little or nothing about the subject, although, to be fair,  a few are capable of learning.  Whether it is selling well or not is an interesting question given the current doubts. My conclusion is simply that the developers, naturally enough, since they have divorce maintenance, mortgages, substances  and mistresses to pay for, care more about maintaining sufficient sales to stay afloat  than they do about realism, and if sales need instant gratification shoot downs, that is what the DM will deliver, whether you or I like it or not.

 

You may want to dial back the hyperbole just a tad. 

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We're a bit off arguing away. Thing is that the P-47 is too fragile, even compared to other planes in the game, and this should be addressed sooner or later. (I hope sooner).

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Sooner I hope.  None of our guys will fly the thing anymore.  We are all about ground pounding, and it's sad that what should be the best single engine attack machine in the ETO is less survivable than the Mustang.  Hell, I'd rather take the P40 to be honest.

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I’ve given up on most radial engined a/c because they die under the lightest fire and their larger area than inline engines makes them too susceptible to damage. Their engines seem to quit instantly unlike inline engines, which seem pretty well modeled. Too bad because the 190 and la5 are some of my favorites. I feel for ya p47 pilots for how fragile it can seem, but sometimes they tank 30mms and other times they crumple under 8mm mg fire. It’s very inconsistent in my experience. One thing I see complained about is wing removal, and while I agree it’s too easy, I do think some survivor bias may come into play here because some seem to think it would be impossible to happen.

Edited by Hajo_Garlic

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