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ME-BFMasserME262

AI Situational Awareness

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PLEASE devs, this is not a suggestion, is a need. PLEASE give AI realistic Situational Awareness.

 

Im TIRED of AI knowing EXACTLY THE **** moment to pull and make me miss. 

 

Im TIRED of AI NEVER losing track of my plane. NEVER

 

You can add BoN, BoB, BoP, BOBOBOBO or whatever you want, but give AI a realistic SA and be sure I will keep HAPPILY killing my credit card for you all.

 

Thanks.

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Salutations,

 

Firstly, if the programmer could or did accurately model the AI behavior you indicate... how would you know it when playing? 

 

The developers are continuing to tweak AI performance. Believe it or not, it has improved recently. It continues to evolve and get better.

 

Also, instead of being so adamant about the perceived lacking in AI performance in a post.. file an official bug report. Let the developers know 'exactly' what you are experiencing and ensure it can be repeated for testing or verified. 

 

Finally, don't ever expect mercy from any enemy AI controlled craft/vehicle. For that matter, don't expect any from live pilots either. 😁

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9 hours ago, Thad said:

Salutations,

 

Firstly, if the programmer could or did accurately model the AI behavior you indicate... how would you know it when playing? 

 

The developers are continuing to tweak AI performance. Believe it or not, it has improved recently. It continues to evolve and get better.

 

Also, instead of being so adamant about the perceived lacking in AI performance in a post.. file an official bug report. Let the developers know 'exactly' what you are experiencing and ensure it can be repeated for testing or verified. 

 

Finally, don't ever expect mercy from any enemy AI controlled craft/vehicle. For that matter, don't expect any from live pilots either. 😁

Bug report? but there's no bug! My complaint is not about a bug.

 

I do know they are working on AI, I like how they try to fight vertical now.

 

The only thing that infuriates me is the fact that my enemy always know what Im doing, my height and speed, so they always break in the right moment, and they never lose track of me, its like his plane itself has 100 eyes. That's it.

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Does the AI have blind spots? Can you bounce them and surprise them? I've always wonder that.

Can they see through clouds?

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It would be interesting to do some kind of controlled test of the effect of different settings of your gun convergence distance on when the AI will make an evasive break when you are on their six.  In my experience the AI will make an evasive maneuver just when you come to your convergence setting.  Seems this would be a simple set of programming parameters because the number you set is indeed "known" by the program.

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25 minutes ago, =gRiJ=Roman- said:

Does the AI have blind spots? Can you bounce them and surprise them? I've always wonder that.

Can they see through clouds?

To my knowledge (and I might be wrong) they don't have blind spots and they see through clouds.

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8 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

It would be interesting to do some kind of controlled test of the effect of different settings of your gun convergence distance on when the AI will make an evasive break when you are on their six.  In my experience the AI will make an evasive maneuver just when you come to your convergence setting.  Seems this would be a simple set of programming parameters because the number you set is indeed "known" by the program.

 

The program is always aware of everything. After all it calculates everything to the last bit. The art is to smartly exclude what the ai is allowed and what not. Not a trivial task. Not try to be a smartass, just saying.

 

 

Edited by cellinsky
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42 minutes ago, =gRiJ=Roman- said:

Does the AI have blind spots? Can you bounce them and surprise them? I've always wonder that.

Can they see through clouds?

 

They are all seeing and all knowing.

;)

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26 minutes ago, Pruciak said:

To my knowledge (and I might be wrong) they don't have blind spots and they see through clouds.

 

They can certainly get target fixated.  Line up an AI while it is firing at a target and it will not always break away.   It is wrong to assume that because the program always knows where you are, that the AI acts as though it does too. 

 

I recall a MOD for RoF which gave the effect that the AI was more likely not to notice you: (AI Pilots IIRC). The files for this have parameters for "threat threshold" and "situation time out", which I assume the modders discovered affected the AI's responses. Assuming that the BoX AI works along similar lines,  this could be tweaked. I think these are probabilistic limits rather than hard; I have certainly got very close to AI in SP that did not seem to notice me. 

 

Perhaps now that the AI is getting better in fighting the SA could be limited a bit more without making them completely helpless.   

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I noticed that the AI begins to care about you at 600 meters.  I can fly at an AI plane and at exactly 600 meters it will start to evade.  If you are approaching low and behind it will notice you.

 

Ai SA should be tied to AI status (Novice, Common, Veteran, Ace).  It feels to me that these AI settings are underused with regards to SA, which means that Novice AI seems to be about as aware as Ace AI.  

 

It's not easy.  Start making AI unaware and you risk making them entirely and/or stupidly unaware.  There are an infinite number of scenarios and it would be hard to get the programming right such that all scenarios are handled realistically.  Would love to see the attempt made though,

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Im aware developing AI is probably one of the most difficult and complex things devs can do.

 

50 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

I noticed that the AI begins to care about you at 600 meters.  I can fly at an AI plane and at exactly 600 meters it will start to evade.  If you are approaching low and behind it will notice you.

I noticed it as well. Sometimes I shot at them from far away and they doesn't even evade, what's kinda stupid, they just evade if Im near, so I can never bounce them and I have to rely on lucky shots from distance.

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Just tested in the ME, with a Spitfire closing on an F4 flying towards a low priority Waypoint from low six. With AI set to novice, or Ace, with convergence set to 100m or 1000m, in every case the F4 did not react until I had passed it's 3-9 line, whether or  not I got it in my sights or just flew straight past.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, unreasonable said:

They can certainly get target fixated.  Line up an AI while it is firing at a target and it will not always break away.

Yes, I noticed that, too. You can fly through four enemy fighters chasing one of your squadmates and they won't make any attempt to fight you.

2 hours ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

Im aware developing AI is probably one of the most difficult and complex things devs can do.

 

I noticed it as well. Sometimes I shot at them from far away and they doesn't even evade, what's kinda stupid, they just evade if Im near, so I can never bounce them and I have to rely on lucky shots from distance.

You can kill them from short distance, when they are returning to their base. It seems, they then have high waypoint priority, so they just fly straight, at least until you hit them two or three times. And even then they only try to evade, not to attack you.

4 hours ago, dburne said:

They are all seeing and all knowing.

Sometimes it seems they know what I'll do, before I do.

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I am curious to see if anyone gets different results with this mission.  Start in the Spitfire and turn on object markers so that you can see the distance to the F4.  The Spitfire will just fly straight if you do not take control.  When I play this, the 109 never sees me until I get right next to it, at which point it will attack. Lapino map, Spitfire IX and 109 F-4 is all that is required. The 109 is "Ace" and the waypoint is "Low".

 

My Missions.zip

 

 

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@unreasonableAs I see there's a 100 m altitude difference between the two planes. When I don't take control, I can pass by under the belly of the F4 unnoticed. If I throttle back afterwards, I can fly in front of him at a distance of 500 to 1000 m without him attacking me. No change when I take control, as long as I pass by under his belly. Didn't have more time to test, but at the moment I can't decide whether he's just neglecting me (due to some higher priority) or simply cannot see me (as the test would suggest if he attacked my when already in front of him).

 

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8 hours ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

The only thing that infuriates me is the fact that my enemy always know what Im doing, my height and speed, so they always break in the right moment, and they never lose track of me, its like his plane itself has 100 eyes. That's it.

 

Hi,

 

Firstly, you don't actually 'know' that the enemy AI always knows your intentions, height and speed.

 

As a mission builder, I know that we can set the AI priority for a AI route to the next waypoint. If set to HIGH the flight will fly to such a waypoint and 'ignore' enemy craft along that part of the route. If set to MEDIUM the AI craft may or may not engage enemy craft along the route. If set to LOW the AI will engage any and all craft that it detects. It's up to the mission builder. The AI doesn't actually have a independent decision process.

 

I don't know how the game assigns AI route settings in a dynamic campaign but as a mission builder, we can assign it as we desire. The AI doesn't decide such things on its' own on the fly.

 

That's just the way it currently is to the best of my knowledge.  :coffee:

Edited by Thad
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33 minutes ago, Thad said:

Firstly, you don't actually 'know' that the enemy AI always knows your intentions, height and speed.

I think, what Masser is talking about is, AI will always counter your actions in the very moment, you start them. A player or a RL pilot can counter your actions only when he is recognizing, what you are doing. There is a little loss of time for that, which AI doesn't have. Plus AI has 100% situational awareness, he always knows where you are. In fact I regularely lose track of AI and have to look around where he is, not so AI. 

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I did first run of unreasonable´s mission without touching the stick. AI Fridrich didn´t noticed me at all when flying at his low six, untill I probably got up to his sight when doing that blind vertical smtg to the right. I repeated the mission, but took control and got on his 4-5 oclock level, he noticed me at cca 200m and started some evasive moves. 3rd time I again approached from his six low and climbed just to be a 100m in front of him, still climbing. It didnt take much time and he lifted the nose and finished me off 😄 Quite believable, I´d say.

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

[...]

There is a little loss of time

[...]

Personally, I think a little portion of time can determine the result of a battle. 

 

Im dogfighting against an enemy. I suddenly lose track of him, for during 5 seconds. To me, those 5 seconds are critical enough.

AI will never "suffer" from that as it is now, and that's why I wish they change it someday in the (near) future.

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@Brano Thanks for confirmation and video - that matches my experience.  Obviously if you were sneaking up on a formation of planes it would be much harder to go undetected: their sighting zones to some extent cover one another's blind spots and if there is an RNG involved - as I suspect - the formation will get more "rolls" to spot.   

 

1 hour ago, Yogiflight said:

I think, what Masser is talking about is, AI will always counter your actions in the very moment, you start them. A player or a RL pilot can counter your actions only when he is recognizing, what you are doing. There is a little loss of time for that, which AI doesn't have. Plus AI has 100% situational awareness, he always knows where you are. In fact I regularely lose track of AI and have to look around where he is, not so AI. 

 

He knows where you are, provided that a) he has detected you, and b) that he has not "undetected" you.  I think my test proves that he has to "detect" you before he can track you.  This is presumably affected by aircraft type, perhaps bubble tops have a smaller dead zone?

 

I am also fairly sure that the AI can lose track of where you are, since I recall observing this in RoF and I think I remember Han mentioning this in a DD once upon a time. Harder to build a test mission to prove that: apart from anything else, the AI tends to fly by aligning his lift line at you, which will usually keep you in view. I tend to lose sight of them often as well, especially in Career when there are more than one to track.  

 

 

Edited by unreasonable

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Just to clarify, do you see confirmed that the AI doesn't see you under certain circumstances, or do you see confirmed that the AI doesn't give you a f..ck under certain circumstances?Just curious, really. :salute:

Edited by sniperton

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33 minutes ago, sniperton said:

Just to clarify, do you see confirmed that the AI doesn't see you under certain circumstances, or do you see confirmed that the AI doesn't give you a f..ck under certain circumstances?Just curious, really. :salute:

 

On the assumption that the AI really just is a bag of algorithms, ie does not have a mind, all I can do is point out the parameters of the test and the AI behaviour.  The AI and Spitfire are set to enemy factions, engageable, etc. The waypoint is "Low" priority: it should engage enemies within some radius without being fired at, and you can see that it does, but not when the Spitfire approaches in the blind spot, even if you get almost within touching distance.  There are circumstances where an AI will not engage even if you are in clear view - set the waypoint to high, for instance, but this is not one of them.

 

So you can either believe that, speaking anthropomorphically,  the AI, even Aces, sees but does not care about an enemy fighter approaching behind at low six, while it eagerly attacks enemies that are in front, or you can believe that it does not see you in it's blind spot. Seems obvious to me which is right.  

Edited by unreasonable

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9 hours ago, unreasonable said:

So you can either believe that, speaking anthropomorphically,  the AI, even Aces, sees but does not care about an enemy fighter approaching behind at low six, while it eagerly attacks enemies that are in front, or you can believe that it does not see you in it's blind spot. Seems obvious to me which is right.  

I get your point, but it's still to be proven that I continued to be in the AI's blind spot when I was already flying in front of him unattacked.

Is there any way to record the test mission from the perspective of the AI pilot?

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Isn't it possible to switch planes and cockpit views when playing ingame track files? Can't check now, at work.

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2 hours ago, Brano said:

Isn't it possible to switch planes and cockpit views when playing ingame track files? Can't check now, at work.

 

No, only externals for non-player planes.

 

3 hours ago, sniperton said:

I get your point, but it's still to be proven that I continued to be in the AI's blind spot when I was already flying in front of him unattacked.

Is there any way to record the test mission from the perspective of the AI pilot?

 

You could modify the mission with the Spitfire flying towards a High Priority WP, so that it will ignore the 109, and make the 109 the player plane so that you can be in the cockpit, but on autopilot. Then you can see when the Spitfire becomes visible to you and when the AI autopilot reacts.   The only difficulty is that I do not know what setting the AI is at for player autopilot.

 

I do not expect, however, that the "field of view" for the AI corresponds exactly to anything that you can or cannot see on the screen, so I am not sure what exactly this is supposed to prove. I assume there is some sort of simplified spherical arc, perhaps with three zones: cannot detect, RNG to detect, and always detect.

 

Anyway, my point was simply to demonstrate that contrary to oft stated opinion in the forum, it is not true that the AI always detects you, or always detects you at a certain distance. They do have blind areas which can occasionally be exploited in the game.   

 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

I do not expect, however, that the "field of view" for the AI corresponds exactly to anything that you can or cannot see on the screen, so I am not sure what exactly this is supposed to prove. I assume there is some sort of simplified spherical arc, perhaps with three zones: cannot detect, RNG to detect, and always detect.

 I think it could be tested by playing with the vertical and horizontal offset of the two flypaths and watching if and when the AI reacts.

 

5 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

Anyway, my point was simply to demonstrate that contrary to oft stated opinion in the forum, it is not true that the AI always detects you, or always detects you at a certain distance. They do have blind areas which can occasionally be exploited in the game.  

Differing common opinion probably roots in differing everyday experience. It's quite rare in ordinary gameplay that you suddenly and magically find yourself at the exact lower six of an opponent without the AI having already detected you long before. I guess your test mission would lead to different results if the Spit were curving in and not "born" in the blind zone.

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Yes it is rare but it does happen, especially when there is one AI on it's own.  It has happened to me enough times in career to know for a fact that the "AI always detects you" story is untrue. 

 

Additionally, an AI that is in the process of making it's own attack on another target will often allow you to line him up without reacting. Whether that is because he does not detect you, or because has to finish a current action in his decision cycle I do not know, but it does not actually matter.  

 

I would like the sun etc to have more effect, and I have no doubt that the AI spots me much better than I spot him: not that that would be difficult!  

 

 

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22 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

Additionally, an AI that is in the process of making it's own attack on another target will often allow you to line him up without reacting. Whether that is because he does not detect you, or because has to finish a current action in his decision cycle I do not know, but it does not actually matter. 

From my experience it clearly is the second. It happened to me several times, that a few AI were chasing a squadmate of mine and I was able to attack the first of them, without the enemies flying behind him, reacting and changing their target and shoot at me, like it should be.

A second point, that speaks for this is an issue in TC, where the gunner won't stop shooting at a target before it is destroyed completely, however the commander ordering him to change target. I think it simply is the way AI is programmed.

On the other side, which showed me a nice discussion with BSR. When you think about it, it might be quite difficult, where to set the point, at which the AI has to decide to change the target. 

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2 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

From my experience it clearly is the second. It happened to me several times, that a few AI were chasing a squadmate of mine and I was able to attack the first of them, without the enemies flying behind him, reacting and changing their target and shoot at me, like it should be.

A second point, that speaks for this is an issue in TC, where the gunner won't stop shooting at a target before it is destroyed completely, however the commander ordering him to change target. I think it simply is the way AI is programmed.

On the other side, which showed me a nice discussion with BSR. When you think about it, it might be quite difficult, where to set the point, at which the AI has to decide to change the target. 

 

Target fixation is a real and common human phenomenon. People also see what they expect to see: hence the accounts you see of enemy planes joining a formation and neither side realizing for a while what has happened, and all the blue on blue battles that took place, going on well after everyone should have realized they were firing at friendlies.  So I am quite OK with the AI sometimes doing things that look irrational: I find this quite realistic.  

 

I cannot comment on TC: got it but have not yet found the time to give it the time and attention it deserves  :(  But it is still very early in it's development cycle: I expect these sorts of things will get ironed out eventually.  

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I edited the mission file by offsetting flight paths just to see how they affect detection. Used auto-level all the time.

 

As said, in the original setup the Spit, flying 100 m lower and completely aligned with the F4's flightpath, did not trigger any reaction.

Now the Spit flying ca. 100 m lower and 100 m to the left resulted in the F4 starting an evasive maneuvre at a distance of 1000 m.

The Spit flying 80 m higher (and aligned) resulted in the F4 starting an evasive maneuvre at a distance of 1250 m.

 

It seems that the blind zone is sort of conic, but very narrow, you have to sneak into it from very far away if you want to stay undetected. Perhaps milages vary for less experienced AIs.

 

Edited by sniperton
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I can confirm that: also when changing the AI status to Low, the distance was also ~1 km

 

So this variable is either not linked to AI rank, or it is but the reaction is an RNG, which would take a few runs to establish. It is also possible that the rank matters indirectly, for instance there may be a different number of things the AI can detect or track depending on rank, or some other interaction.  I suppose only the developers know for sure, and they are not saying. 

 

If you drop the height of the Spitfire by 300m, with the 100m offset, you get within ~500m before the 109 reacts.  This corresponds to my RoF experience, which is that low side attacks on single AI planes do work if you start well below a target plane and then climb up underneath it. You can get close even if you are not always exactly behind: the closer in height you get, the more exactly behind you have to be.

 

 

Edited by unreasonable

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All that sounds reasonable to me.

 

Now the next question is whether these values are generic or specific to plane type and properties.

 

I see you used the F4 without the mod "armoured headrest removed", and still it detected me when I was just 80 m higher and at a distance of 1250 m.

 

Spotting an aircraft lurking just behind the rudder at 1+ km distance would be a challenge even from a bubble canopy, not to speak of the cramped, deeply inset cockpit of a 109 where the rear view is heavily compromised.

 

So I guess the cone is generic...

Edited by sniperton

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I will mess around with changing the aircraft type and run a few more variations to see if there are any obvious differences in the cone.

 

Only thing flying around here late last night was termites - Rentokill time. :(  

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I don't know if it's relevant, but after the latest AI update, I did a bunch of 1v1 Quick Missions and it seemed as if the AI hadn't changed. It would still Split-S into the ground and do other blatantly dumb stuff.  On a whim, I decided to do a clean re-install and tried again.  The AI behaves much better now.  Now it only does things like the infamous "stupid loop" if you let it.  Once it knows you have an answer to it endlessly going around in circles, it will react.  I don't know much about computer programming, but I'd venture a guess that some bits of old AI code didn't get removed or overwritten.  

 

One thing I did notice though (purely subjective, admittedly) was if there was an opportunity to drop flaps to tighten the turn, it seemed the AI would instantly roll over into a split-s if there was enough altitude.  It always seemed to happen the very moment I pressed the "flaps down" button.  

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I've always felt that AI has access to the view through my gun sight and knows what range it is set at.  They also seem to do their best evasive maneuvering

when obstructed from my view behind the canopy frame pieces.

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On 12/4/2019 at 2:47 AM, unreasonable said:

I will mess around with changing the aircraft type and run a few more variations to see if there are any obvious differences in the cone.

 

Could be easier to prove by checking the lower 7 to 11 region. In the Spit the wing should be blocking lower 9 to 11, while in the P-39 lower 7 to 9, approximately.

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Tested and indeed there are variations. When at its lower 9, the Spit didn't change course until I passed its 11, but evaded soon when I started at its lower 7. In contrast, the P-39 didn't evade when I started at its lower 7, but attacked me as soon as I passed its 9.

Edited by sniperton

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