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Legioneod

BON P-47D Razorback

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This picture claims this was a B model P-47 still flying at the end of the war. Wings/Airpower magazines were usually pretty well researched and written so I'd take them at their word. I think it shows that equipment in the ETO was highly maintained and used until used up.

 

image.thumb.png.a9180f4a97e239574c1e3c94cc5f75ed.png

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16 minutes ago, Rjel said:

This picture claims this was a B model P-47 still flying at the end of the war. Wings/Airpower magazines were usually pretty well researched and written so I'd take them at their word. I think it shows that equipment in the ETO was highly maintained and used until used up.

 

image.thumb.png.a9180f4a97e239574c1e3c94cc5f75ed.png

Doubt because

1)Bs never had wingracks.

2) A better quality image shows the serial number as 42-26261 which is a D-22 and that the cowl flaps are those used on the D instead of the B/C

 Walter001a.png

 

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1 hour ago, Rjel said:

This picture claims this was a B model P-47 still flying at the end of the war. Wings/Airpower magazines were usually pretty well researched and written so I'd take them at their word. I think it shows that equipment in the ETO was highly maintained and used until used up.

 

image.thumb.png.a9180f4a97e239574c1e3c94cc5f75ed.png

P-47B never served in combat, they were used for training.

This is a P-47D

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3 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

P-47B never served in combat, they were used for training.

This is a P-47D

As I said, that magazine was highly respected. Warren Bodie is also a highly respected author. Perhaps the person who wrote the caption for that photo was mistaken. A thousand pardons for repeating the error.

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3 minutes ago, Rjel said:

As I said, that magazine was highly respected. Warren Bodie is also a highly respected author. Perhaps the person who wrote the caption for that photo was mistaken. A thousand pardons for repeating the error.

All good. The overall point of your post is still valid, it shows that Razorbacks were used till the end.

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The point is, on ETO some rare Razorback have been used late.

Here a D-10 of the 366th FS, 358 FG, taking off, around March 45.

5940353_P47D-1003.thumb.png.a4ff7d0361c8db677143c261161312c7.png

 

8 minutes ago, Rjel said:

As I said, that magazine was highly respected. Warren Bodie is also a highly respected author. Perhaps the person who wrote the caption for that photo was mistaken. A thousand pardons for repeating the error.

 

Don't worry, there are a lot of mistakes even on good books.

Edited by Notclear

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12 minutes ago, Notclear said:

The point is, on ETO some rare Razorback have been used late.

Here a D-10 of the 366th FS, 358 FG, taking off, around March 45.

5940353_P47D-1003.thumb.png.a4ff7d0361c8db677143c261161312c7.png

 

 

Don't worry, there are a lot of mistakes even on good books.

Agreed. That’s why I said his post is still valid regardless of mistaken identity because it shows that Razorbacks were in use till the end.

Edited by Legioneod

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Here's what I've received from both the 365th and 352nd squadrons a while back.

One is the photo I posted earlier.

 

 Chievres and Y-29 - 44.

P-47 'C4-T' 365th FG Belgium, early '45.jpg

Scan 52.jpg

366th Area.jpg

jk 22 -47s lined up for takeoff Chievres HHH 288.jpg

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9 hours ago, I./ZG1_Dutchvdm said:

When was the D-22's introduction to the frontline units? That usually a good indicator. 

 

Grt M

The most notable variants were D-22 and D-25. The former, introduced at the turn of spring and summer 1944

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20 minutes ago, 361st_Hoss said:

The most notable variants were D-22 and D-25. The former, introduced at the turn of spring and summer 1944

D-25 was introduced in spring and summer of 44, D-22 was earlier iirc.

 

D-25 would be sweet to have as well, it was the first production bubbletop and was quite good performance wise.

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4 hours ago, Pierre64 said:

Another example : 56th FG, Boxted.


Seeing a green bubble next to a silver razorback makes me extremely uncomfortable. 

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I just can’t wait for people to complain about the bar in the middle of the windscreen :)

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19 minutes ago, spartan85 said:

I just can’t wait for people to complain about the bar in the middle of the windscreen :)

It's actually very thin and probably wouldn't be in the way that much once you get used to it. The big armored glass frame in font of you might be distracting though😄

This is not a D-22 but is very close to what the cockpit will look like, if we get a D-22 that is. (main differences are some of the dash and throttle quadrant)

dc91f3a820a6e76011ead5064c54ccd3.jpg

Edited by Legioneod

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6 hours ago, Jason_Williams said:

Probably will be a D-22.
 

Someday I would love to just make a big plane package of "other variants" that didn't have time to do or were missing info at the time.

 

Jason

 

Yeah - I always thought some type of upgrade pack (e.g. Bf-110G 'late', Ju-87D5) would be neat. Of course it could be melded with a pack of late war Russian aircraft (perhaps a bundled of 'collector planes') and a small map to do 44/45 East. One could even do it as a full module but offer a slight discount for people who already had the German fighters from BoBP.

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2 hours ago, spartan85 said:

I just can’t wait for people to complain about the bar in the middle of the windscreen :)

VR for the win 😎

 

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3 hours ago, Legioneod said:

It's actually very thin and probably wouldn't be in the way that much once you get used to it. The big armored glass frame in font of you might be distracting though😄

This is not a D-22 but is very close to what the cockpit will look like, if we get a D-22 that is. (main differences are some of the dash and throttle quadrant)

dc91f3a820a6e76011ead5064c54ccd3.jpg

Awesome!  

The offset site will be fun for allied flyers too :)

it is offset no?

1 hour ago, Voyager said:

VR for the win 😎

 

One day... it will be mine... 

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49 minutes ago, spartan85 said:

Awesome!  

The offset site will be fun for allied flyers too :)

it is offset no?

One day... it will be mine... 

I've seen it look like it's mounted both ways, offset slightly to the right of the frame, and centrally mounted as well. 

 

It does look to be mounted pretty close to center, maybe a slight offset but it's hard to tell from this angle.

cockpit_and_gunsight_of_a_P-47_Thunderbo

Edited by Legioneod

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@spartan85 The offset in the German fighters is specifically to line the gun sight up with the pilot's right eye. That is very clear in VR, even if it messes things up in 2d. The P-47 offset is just to clear the center brace, and that may not even be necessary for people using both eyes. 

 

Remember, the default location basically assumes your eye is in the center of your forehead. 

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8 hours ago, [Pb]Cybermat47 said:


Seeing a green bubble next to a silver razorback makes me extremely uncomfortable. 

 

That's an interesting thought, in a way understandable, as we seem to be conditioned to associate shiny bright with new or latest model. And the bubble canopy was indeed a radical step forward at that time.

 

Yet when we examine it historically there appears to be no reason to feel this way as it was not uncommon for green & silver bubble tops to be on squadron strength alongside green & silver razorbacks, as can be seen in the official USAAF documentary "Thunderbolt" filmed in Corsica & over Italy in 1944. The feature aircraft of the film "Hun Hunter XIV" flown by Lt. Col. Gilbert O. Wymond Jr. was in fact a silver razorback.

 

p-47d-thunderbolt-hun-hunter-xiv-42-27910-625x314.jpg.c3a9ea4945bb07ab494108d38baf2542.jpg

 

Spoiler

HunHunterXIV.jpeg.78c54c0f1a7e86176e2ae8cd1a03d22e.jpeg

 

While the overall majority of P-47's in the film are green razorbacks, the official poster (1947) for the movie shows 4 silver bubble-top's, no doubt  something to do with that conditioning I alluded to above :) 

 

Thunderbolt_poster.jpg.6ca95fedefd147f6eb4d11c9730b9283.jpg

 

The film itself is always worth a watch and for me nearly always throws up another little gem, like the pilot lighting up a cigarette on route home around the 32:55 mark, a real time capsule.

 

Other marks worth a look;

 

12:00 onward. Preparing for takeoff, clearly showing the various type and colours of P-47's all together.

15:00 Silver razorback followed by green bubble-top.

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

Edited by Pict
Spelling, tweaking etc.
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If I understand it well D22 was the best D version about speed and D25 was first D version with bubbletop ? It was same like D22 but with bubbletop and was better then our D-28?
Can we get best bubbletop version too? 😍
 Like M verison or better D verison O:)

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1 hour ago, BlackSix said:

I've checked my BoBP tables and if it will be D-22 then we'll be able to add it to all P-47 squadrons from the beginning to the end of BoBP career. I collected information about the modifications based on data on combat losses in these squadrons here: http://p-47.database.pagesperso-orange.fr/index.html

I very much hope you re-consider the choice D-22. That's "just" the model we know already. Except the the look it won't add that much to the sim. Any model below D-22 would allow us to experience the limits of the P-47 without large paddel-props. The challenges P-47-pilots had to deal with where much more demanding from the beginning in Europe until the first D-22s went into service. Looking at realism and immersion any P-47 below variant 22 would be the better choice for the IL-series to cover all the aspects of P-47-sorties.

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5 hours ago, JG4_Retnek said:

I very much hope you re-consider the choice D-22. That's "just" the model we know already. Except the the look it won't add that much to the sim. Any model below D-22 would allow us to experience the limits of the P-47 without large paddel-props. The challenges P-47-pilots had to deal with where much more demanding from the beginning in Europe until the first D-22s went into service. Looking at realism and immersion any P-47 below variant 22 would be the better choice for the IL-series to cover all the aspects of P-47-sorties.

 

Except then it can't be used in BoBP career.

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If the team is able to pull of an early P-47 wich can be converted to D22 via modifications I am sure many people won't complain is similar to the Thunderbolt we already have 

Edited by LF_Gallahad

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The D-21 got a modification of the water injection controller, we can't go under without modifying the model of the cockpit.

 

In my opinion, flying the D-22 will be a new experience, the view from inside will be totally different, a better stability compared to our D-28 without dorsal fin, and I'm not sure but the water injection will be less powerfull (D-27 introduced a water injection which delivered 130hp, before I've have not numbers)

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On 11/27/2019 at 9:47 AM, Legioneod said:

Now that we’re getting a Razorback what block are you wanting most?

 

Since no official block has been announced it seems the Devs are still trying to figure out which one to choose. 

 

What do you hope they choose and why?

 

I’m ok with any Razorback but my hope is for the D-22 to be chosen. 

The D-22 was the most produced Razorback block apart from the D-23 which had similar numbers built.

The D-22 has a Hamilton standard prop which gives it good level speed performance over the Curtis counterpart (around 9mph). It also has wing racks and the ability to use late war boost with 150 fuel so it can fit well with Bodenplatte.

D-22 imo is the best option for BON and will go very well with Bodenplatte.

I want the type that doesnt lose wings and stuff when it dives?

oh and has the zoom it was famous for.

19 hours ago, Avimimus said:

 

Yeah - I always thought some type of upgrade pack (e.g. Bf-110G 'late', Ju-87D5) would be neat. Of course it could be melded with a pack of late war Russian aircraft (perhaps a bundled of 'collector planes') and a small map to do 44/45 East. One could even do it as a full module but offer a slight discount for people who already had the German fighters from BoBP.

thatd be so nice. I bet itd get a lot of support -especially on the Russian side if even AI only LI2 and C47s were added along with FW189s

then fltable aircraft you mentioned BUT ALSO Yak3s, and some other Soviet a/c that havent gotten much love.

17 hours ago, Voyager said:

VR for the win 😎

 

I wanted VR sooooooo bad.  I saved and saved. just to find out I could get it but my comp wouldnt handle it. went to trac k ir.  Its cool but... I want vr lol

I know I can search.. but im being lazy

anyone have a table or breakdown of relative amounts of kills in ETO

e.g

Spitfires

P47s

P51s

Typhoons

Mossies

Tempests

P38s

and so on?

Curious who got the most kills. I have a suspicion the P47s got more because the time frame they were engaged (than p51s)

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17 hours ago, BlackSix said:

I've checked my BoBP tables and if it will be D-22 then we'll be able to add it to all P-47 squadrons from the beginning to the end of BoBP career. I collected information about the modifications based on data on combat losses in these squadrons here: http://p-47.database.pagesperso-orange.fr/index.html

 

 

Even more of a reason to have it imo, it adds alot to both Normandy and Bodenplatte.

 

16 hours ago, Art said:

If I understand it well D22 was the best D version about speed and D25 was first D version with bubbletop ? It was same like D22 but with bubbletop and was better then our D-28?
Can we get best bubbletop version too? 😍
 Like M verison or better D verison O:)

The thing about the P-47D is that none of them were really superior than the other due to field upgrades. Only reason D-22 is faster is due to Hamilton Prop. D-22, D-25, and D-27 are all nearly identical in speed. Only reason D-28 is slower is due to prop used.

 

The best D bubbletop was the D-27 in terms of performance but the D-20 had feature that helped in a dive.

 

15 hours ago, JG4_Retnek said:

I very much hope you re-consider the choice D-22. That's "just" the model we know already. Except the the look it won't add that much to the sim. Any model below D-22 would allow us to experience the limits of the P-47 without large paddel-props. The challenges P-47-pilots had to deal with where much more demanding from the beginning in Europe until the first D-22s went into service. Looking at realism and immersion any P-47 below variant 22 would be the better choice for the IL-series to cover all the aspects of P-47-sorties.

 

D-22 will certainly have many limitations. It wont have great visibility and wont have the late war power settings unless the devs add it as an option for Bodenplatte.

By this time in the war many P-47D were retrofitted with the Curtis paddle prop.

 

5 hours ago, =362nd_FS=RoflSeal said:

The D razorbacks were upgraded to use 64" by May 1944, though having it as an option together with the earlier 2300hp Water-injection rating is not a bad idea. 
p-47-2535hp.jpg

Yep imo there are three possible choices for the Dev team to choose.

 

Stock choice which should be the standard setting for the beginning of the Normandy campaign. 56" WEP 2300HP

 

Upgraded setting for use of 64" WEP 2500-2600HP with standard fuels.

 

Late war upgrade for Bodneplate for use with 150 fuels of 70" WEP at around 2800HP

 

I doubt we'll see all three but I do hope to see some as a mod, I obviously would like to see 150 fuel option for use in Bodneplatte. 64" is useable in Bodenplatte. 56" is out of the question when using it for Bodenplatte so it needs to either have 64" as standard or have 64" or 70" as an option.

 

EDIT: I feel the best option would be to have 56" as stock before and then 70" WEP as a mod due to the P-47s in the UK using 150 fuel during the Normandy timeframe. They were released for 70" during Normandy campaign so it's logical to have it as a mod.

 

 

Edited by Legioneod
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What I’m really hoping for is a better FM. I can’t do anything with the current version. 

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On 11/27/2019 at 10:39 AM, Gambit21 said:

 

D-22 so much the better.

 

 

 

 

A-20G approves of this notion.

 

I'd like that variant too so I can skin my Grandfathers aircraft that he was a Gunner on. He was in the 640th BS. But like Jason said that would be more work than we all think it entails. The game engine is most likely physics based and that's a lot of new math for the solid nose with the 4 cannons.

 

But yeah most likely the D-22 since this battle was so close to Bodenplatte.

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1 hour ago, =362nd_FS=RoflSeal said:

The D razorbacks were upgraded to use 64" by May 1944, though having it as an option together with the earlier 2300hp Water-injection rating is not a bad idea. 
p-47-2535hp.jpg

 

On 24 June 1944, the P-47s were cleared to use 70" Hg with 100/150 grade fuel and water injection (paragraph 2). For interest, here's a P-47 Tactical Planning Characteristics & Performance Chart applicable to several P-47 sub-types: the D-22-RE had slightly higher top speeds and climb rates than later variants.

 

 

24june44-progress-report1.jpg

p-47-tactical-chart.jpg

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1 hour ago, smink1701 said:

What I’m really hoping for is a better FM. I can’t do anything with the current version. 

Top speed performance is pretty close to real numbers, I do have some doubts about the accuracy of the lower power settings performance as it seems to be too slow at lower power.

Dive seems ok except for losing parts in a dive, roll is good, energy retention is ok but leaves a bit to be desired.

 

The P-47 needs to be flown in a certain way to be successful just like irl, it has pretty clear cut strengths and weaknesses that need to be followed.

12 minutes ago, NZTyphoon said:

 

On 24 June 1944, the P-47s were cleared to use 70" Hg with 100/150 grade fuel and water injection (paragraph 2). For interest, here's a P-47 Tactical Planning Characteristics & Performance Chart applicable to several P-47 sub-types: the D-22-RE had slightly higher top speeds and climb rates than later variants.

p-47-tactical-chart.jpg

Yep and hopefully we'll see 70" added as a late modification of use in Bodenplatte.  Keep in mind that for the chart above the D-22 is using a  load of 13,500 lbs while the later blocks are using higher loads of around 14,000lbs from the looks of it. Hard to read so I may not be correct.

The D-22 was faster than the D-23 and D-26 but it was nearly identical to the D-25 in performance.

 

Here's a chart for use of 70" This is not a D-22 but a P-47 with a Curtis Electric Prop, the D-22 would be slightly faster with it's Hamilton. Also this is top speed with combat load and not design load, it's be a bit faster with design useful load just like the D-28 in-game.

Comparative_Fighter_Performance.jpg

Edited by Legioneod

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1 hour ago, Legioneod said:

Top speed performance is pretty close to real numbers, I do have some doubts about the accuracy of the lower power settings performance as it seems to be too slow at lower power.

Dive seems ok except for losing parts in a dive, roll is good, energy retention is ok but leaves a bit to be desired.

 

The P-47 needs to be flown in a certain way to be successful just like irl, it has pretty clear cut strengths and weaknesses that need to be followed.

Yep and hopefully we'll see 70" added as a late modification of use in Bodenplatte.  Keep in mind that for the chart above the D-22 is using a  load of 13,500 lbs while the later blocks are using higher loads of around 14,000lbs from the looks of it. Hard to read so I may not be correct.

The D-22 was faster than the D-23 and D-26 but it was nearly identical to the D-25 in performance.

 

Here's a chart for use of 70" This is not a D-22 but a P-47 with a Curtis Electric Prop, the D-22 would be slightly faster with it's Hamilton. Also this is top speed with combat load and not design load, it's be a bit faster with design useful load just like the D-28 in-game

Dont forget the damage model. Fine, we dont need P47s that can hit a tree and keep going. But somethings very very off when theyre the WEAKEST allied fighter

it looks like looney tunes when I shoot one with a good burst ( they just fall to pieces and I swear I can see ACME written on the pieces)

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1 minute ago, Sublime said:

Dont forget the damage model. Fine, we dont need P47s that can hit a tree and keep going. But somethings very very off when theyre the WEAKEST allied fighter

it looks like looney tunes when I shoot one with a good burst ( they just fall to pieces and I swear I can see ACME written on the pieces)

Forgot to mention that. Of all the things the DM is the worst part about the P-47, as long as they work on that I'll be happy.

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I agree, the one feature pilots adored their P 47 for was the fact that they got home again in it. 
it could take enormous amount if structural damage from flak and still fly. 
There are pictures enough around in the web to prove that. 
However I do not think they ever met opponents 

the way it does online in game. 
I get blown to pieces in it when flying alone with a lot of bombs. And  everytime a lw come a long fully loaded with 30 mm. 
I love the P 47, but getting atomized 99% of the time gets boring

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On 11/27/2019 at 10:06 AM, Voyager said:

@Legioneod The announcement seems to imply that they are covering the late 1943 period as well. 

 

@RedKestrelWhile I doubt we'll get the 70" version, all they did to do that was use the 135 gas and disregard the boost limits. We should be able to get the 64" setting as a late war modification, since as I recall, all R-2800 were cleared to use it with 135+ octane gas and water injection. 

They also messed around with the supercharger as well, as taught to his crew chief by a rep from Republic

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