Aircraft visibility bug - BoPB

[ACG_Talisman 554]

Hi Folks,

 

Does anyone know if the dev's are aware of what appears to be a bug with the aircraft graphics as detailed below?

 

I have noticed that fully camouflaged aircraft, using the British camouflage pattern, are highlighted from long distances, when viewed from above, by appearing very bright and shiny in glinting sun; however, German aircraft in the same situation are much darker and are not highly visible in the same way.

 

This makes it so much easier to spot Tempest's Spitfires and Mustangs, even though they have a darker camouflaged pattern.

 

For example, if you set up a mission in the QMB of 8 x Tempest vs 8 x Dora 9 you can quickly see that the two aircraft are treated very differently in that the Tempest stands out and is highlighted by the sun at certain angles in a way the Dora 9 is not; the British camouflage pattern is intensely lit up and the German is much darker.  It is the same if you select the Bf 109 and other German aircraft too.  The German aircraft sun effect is much darker and the British camouflage lights up like a Christmas tree in comparison.

 

Having discovered this inconsistency, I now understand why whenever I spot an aircraft below me that is shining in the sun and I dive on it, I find it is always friendly if I am flying a Tempest, Spitfire or Mustang with British camouflage.  Alternatively, when flying German aircraft, the British camouflaged aircraft that are below me are easily identified and can be dived on and attacked with confidence it will be the enemy without having to get closer to identify the aircraft type.  The effect also allows the German aircraft to be lost from view even though the aircraft with British camouflage that may be in front, beside or in front of it is still highly visible.

 

This makes flying on MP servers very uncomfortable when flying for the Allied side and is currently very much stacking the odds in favour of one side over the other in a way that makes no sense to me.

 

Has this issue been reported as a bug?  Are the dev's aware?

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

 

P.S.  I should have said at the beginning that I use 'Realistic', not 'Alternative' settings.

Edited November 28, 2019 by 56RAF_Talisman

[RedKestrel 3586]

5 minutes ago, 56RAF_Talisman said:

Hi Folks,

 

Does anyone know if the dev's are aware of what appears to be a bug with the aircraft graphics as detailed below?

 

I have noticed that fully camouflaged aircraft, using the British camouflage pattern, are highlighted from long distances, when viewed from above, by appearing very bright and shiny in glinting sun; however, German aircraft in the same situation are much darker and are not highly visible in the same way.

 

This makes it so much easier to spot Tempest's Spitfires and Mustangs, even though they have a darker camouflaged pattern.

 

For example, if you set up a mission in the QMB of 8 x Tempest vs 8 x Dora 9 you can quickly see that the two aircraft are treated very differently in that the Tempest stands out and is highlighted by the sun at certain angles in a way the Dora 9 is not; the British camouflage pattern is intensely lit up and the German is much darker.  It is the same if you select the Bf 109 and other German aircraft too.  The German aircraft sun effect is much darker and the British camouflage lights up like a Christmas tree in comparison.

 

Having discovered this inconsistency, I now understand why whenever I spot an aircraft below me that is shining in the sun and I dive on it, I find it is always friendly if I am flying a Tempest, Spitfire or Mustang with British camouflage.  Alternatively, when flying German aircraft, the British camouflaged aircraft that are below me are easily identified and can be dived on and attacked with confidence it will be the enemy without having to get closer to identify the aircraft type.  The effect also allows the German aircraft to be lost from view even though the aircraft with British camouflage that may be in front, beside or in front of it is still highly visible.

 

This makes flying on MP servers very uncomfortable when flying for the Allied side and is currently very much stacking the odds in favour of one side over the other in a way that makes no sense to me.

 

Has this issue been reported as a bug?  Are the dev's aware?

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

 

 

This could be related to issues with aircraft skins not rendering properly - i.e. popping in and out. So it could be that the shinier default skins are rendering on the allied planes rather than the camo patterns, whereas the default skins on the Luftwaffe planes are 'duller'. 

The skin rendering issue seemed to worsen with the last couple patches - I never had it before then. basically you look at an aircraft, and for a half second the default skin appears and then the new skin loads. 

Is this something you noted in this patch, or before? I haven't played the new patch yet.

If you could post a short video with it to show what you mean, I might be able to see if it is the same thing I and others have seen. 

[ACG_Talisman 554]

23 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

This could be related to issues with aircraft skins not rendering properly - i.e. popping in and out. So it could be that the shinier default skins are rendering on the allied planes rather than the camo patterns, whereas the default skins on the Luftwaffe planes are 'duller'. 

The skin rendering issue seemed to worsen with the last couple patches - I never had it before then. basically you look at an aircraft, and for a half second the default skin appears and then the new skin loads. 

Is this something you noted in this patch, or before? I haven't played the new patch yet.

If you could post a short video with it to show what you mean, I might be able to see if it is the same thing I and others have seen. 

 

No, skins popping in and out is not the issue here, as the British default skins are the darker, duller camouflaged skins in the first place; the default skins are not shiny.  If anything, the default camouflage is duller for the British than the lighter LW aircraft.  It looks to me like perhaps the dev's have mistakenly given the British camouflage the wrong code and perhaps incorrectly designated a code for bare metal.  In any event, the British Mustang, Spitfire and Tempest are flashing their presence much, much more than the LW aircraft, which does not make sense at all.

 

No need for video as it is obvious in QMB as I stated and obvious on MP once one is aware of the issue.  It is so easy to differentiate friend from foe due to this issue and much harder to spot and track LW aircraft types.

 

The camouflage visibility code seems to be at fault here; at least that is my guess.

 

P.S.  This issue was also there pre-patch and remains there since the last patch; I was waiting to see if it got fixed, but it did not.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

 

P.S.  I should have said at the beginning that I use 'Realistic', not 'Alternative' settings.

Edited November 28, 2019 by 56RAF_Talisman

[RedKestrel 3586]

1 minute ago, 56RAF_Talisman said:

 

No, skins popping in and out is not the issue here, as the British default skins are the darker, duller camouflaged skins in the first place; the default skins are not shiny.  If anything, the default camouflage is duller for the British than the lighter LW aircraft.  It looks to me like perhaps the dev's have mistakenly given the British camouflage the wrong code and perhaps incorrectly designated a code for bare metal.  In any event, the British Mustang, Spitfire and Tempest are flashing there presence much, much more than the LW aircraft, which does not make sense at all.

 

No need for video as it is obvious in QMB as I stated and obvious on MP once one is aware of the issue.  It is so easy to differentiate friend from foe due to this issue and much harder to spot and track LW aircraft types.

 

The camouflage visibility code seems to be at fault here; at least that is my guess.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

So this is something you noted just after this patch, or earlier? I haven't seen that shiny-ness on RAF planes that I recall on earlier patches but I haven't flown much.

In any case, I would report this as a bug. Your hunch sounds like it could be correct.

[=VARP=Ribbon 1107]

I believe Brits get their paint from Delboy and Rodney!

 

[JimTM 1392]

Here are a couple of spotting test missions (using the Me109 and the Tempest) to check out the problem. See the mission briefing for details. I did notice that it is easier to spot the Tempest from ground level and above. Try zooming in on both planes to see the effect.

JimTM - Test Spotting Me109 and Tempest.zip

 

My monitor resolution for the test was 1920 x 1080, but I use 1280 x 720 for my regular online flying. The lower resolution makes it much easier for me to spot bandits at least 4 or 5 km away and I'm used to the reduced eye candy.

Edited November 27, 2019 by JimTM

[SharpeXB 1067]

Is this what you are seeing?

I’m away from my PC so I can’t check the track above  

 

Edited November 27, 2019 by SharpeXB

[JimTM 1392]

8 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Is this what you are seeing?

I’m away from my PC so I can’t check the track above  

...

 

The attachment is a zip file with two missions, not a track or video.

 

When I run the Tempest mission, the Tempests have white highlights and when I zoom in the highlights are gone and the darker camouflage takes over. Alternate visibility is off.

Edited November 27, 2019 by JimTM

[SharpeXB 1067]

1 hour ago, JimTM said:

when I zoom in the highlights are gone and the darker camouflage takes over. Alternate visibility is off.

That sounds like what I saw. I’ll try your files next week. 
Is this what you’re seeing?

 

Edited November 28, 2019 by SharpeXB

[JimTM 1392]

25 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

That sounds like what I saw. I’ll try your files next week. 
Is this what you’re seeing?

...

 

It's the same effect but in reverse--light when zoomed out, dark when zoomed in.

[SharpeXB 1067]

25 minutes ago, JimTM said:

 

It's the same effect but in reverse--light when zoomed out, dark when zoomed in.

Interesting. I’ll check it out. 

[taffy2jeffmorgan 108]

9 hours ago, EAF_Ribbon said:

I believe Brits get their paint from Delboy and Rodney!

 

Classic

[ACG_Talisman 554]

14 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Is this what you are seeing?

I’m away from my PC so I can’t check the track above  

 

 

Thanks SarpeXB, but the issue I have raised is different to the one you have raised.  I also observe the separate issue you have raised too though.

 

Bottom line is that British camouflage aircraft are highly visible at certain angles to the sun in a way that German aircraft are not.  So it is extremely easy to spot British camouflage aircraft, like they have no camouflage and are shiny from certain angles to the sun, whilst this effect in not modelled the same way for German aircraft and makes them much harder to spot.

 

If you look down and catch an aircraft shining in the sun from a long distance away it will most likely not be German and if you dive on it you will invariably find it will be British camouflage.

 

To my mind, no matter what side the aircraft is on, if the aircraft has a camouflaged skin then the effect from catching the sun should be treated the same in the modelling and coding.  Clearly the British camouflage is being treated differently to the German camouflage at the moment. 

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

 

P.S.  I should have said at the beginning that I use 'Realistic', not 'Alternative' settings.

Edited November 28, 2019 by 56RAF_Talisman

[Requiem 1733]

Maybe I need to go fly German for a change then. I feel like since this "realistic" visibility was adjusted it's causing me some eye strain looking for targets I never had previously. There is definitely a weird range where you can spot something, but then you're unable to see it again until it's right on top of you even while knowing where to look.

[Dramborleg 16]

Thanks for posting this.  I already stopped playing online a couple weeks ago due to difficulty spotting planes including those flying in front of clouds. If this issue is universally true that would explain a lot.  Not going to play online till these issues are dealt with.

[9./JG54_Schwengber 2]

Hi gentlemen

 

This bug really happens, p51 and the tempest are totally white at some distance. As I approach to engage they return to normal camouflage. The visibility issue got really bad after the upgrade, I won't buy any products until they solve this problem.

 

Cheers

[SharpeXB 1067]

If you guys see this stuff the best thing to do is make a track and video of it, then post it over to that section along with your settings and system info. It’s sometimes hard to see the subtle spotting effects on a video but anyone can rerun your track to try and repeat the effect. The Devs need that kind of info in order to tackle this.

[9./JG54_Schwengber 2]

32 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

If you guys see this stuff the best thing to do is make a track and video of it, then post it over to that section along with your settings and system info. It’s sometimes hard to see the subtle spotting effects on a video but anyone can rerun your track to try and repeat the effect. The Devs need that kind of info in order to tackle this.

I have observed in other topics that this problem is already known. But I will try to make a video.

 

[JimTM 1392]

1 hour ago, Aeglos said:

Thanks for posting this.  I already stopped playing online a couple weeks ago due to difficulty spotting planes including those flying in front of clouds. If this issue is universally true that would explain a lot.  Not going to play online till these issues are dealt with.

 

Try reducing your resolution (game and monitor) to 1280 x 720. I find that the lower resolution makes it much easier for me to spot bandits at least 4 or 5 km away. It may not be the best solution for great looking graphics but I don't find it too bad. Hopefully the high-resolution spotting issue will improve in the future. Give the lower res a test and see what you think. 

 

By the way, the cloud issue was improved in the last release:

    4. The issue with planes visually disappearing against the clouds at short distances has been minimized;

Edited November 28, 2019 by JimTM

[DD_fruitbat 467]

28 minutes ago, JimTM said:

 

Try reducing your resolution (game and monitor) to 1280 x 720. I find that the lower resolution makes it much easier for me to spot bandits at least 4 or 5 km away. It may not be the best solution for great looking graphics but I don't find it too bad. Hopefully the high-resolution spotting issue will improve in the future. Give the lower res a test and see what you think. 

 

By the way, the cloud issue was improved in the last release:

    4. The issue with planes visually disappearing against the clouds at short distances has been minimized;

 

While i can see merit in your suggestion, i'd rather get shot down more in 4k goodness than subject myself to resolutions of 10 years ago.....

[RedKestrel 3586]

2 hours ago, Aeglos said:

Thanks for posting this.  I already stopped playing online a couple weeks ago due to difficulty spotting planes including those flying in front of clouds. If this issue is universally true that would explain a lot.  Not going to play online till these issues are dealt with.

Planes disappearing in front of clouds is supposed to be solved/reduced  by the most recent patch, at the very least the pixelation is now much reduced.
 

[SharpeXB 1067]

1 hour ago, DD_fruitbat said:

 

While i can see merit in your suggestion, i'd rather get shot down more in 4k goodness than subject myself to resolutions of 10 years ago.....

Same here. They shouldn’t do things to the graphics that encourage players to run lower settings. I can spot aircraft perfectly well in 4K

1 hour ago, 9./JG54_Schwengber said:

I have observed in other topics that this problem is already known. But I will try to make a video.

 

The important reason to post a video is to show what you see. Along with a track and your graphic settings. Then others can use the track and try to replicate the exact situation. If they can, then it’s probably an issue with the game. If they can’t then the problem could be on your end. Without that documentation it’s impossible for the Devs to evaluate. 

[Dramborleg 16]

 

7 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

Planes disappearing in front of clouds is supposed to be solved/reduced  by the most recent patch, at the very least the pixelation is now much reduced.
 

I was waiting for this update to drop since hearing about it in the DD.  Thanks. 

Edited November 29, 2019 by Aeglos

[ACG_Talisman 554]

20 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

If you guys see this stuff the best thing to do is make a track and video of it, then post it over to that section along with your settings and system info. It’s sometimes hard to see the subtle spotting effects on a video but anyone can rerun your track to try and repeat the effect. The Devs need that kind of info in order to tackle this.

 

This effect is not subtle and as soon as one realises it is only certain aircraft it appears outrageous, lol.

 

I agree with you though, but I can't make and post video.  It is so obvious though if one sets up a QMB,  8 x Tempest vs 8 x Bf 109 or FW 190, in 'Realistic' view particularly.

20 hours ago, JimTM said:

 

Try reducing your resolution (game and monitor) to 1280 x 720. I find that the lower resolution makes it much easier for me to spot bandits at least 4 or 5 km away. It may not be the best solution for great looking graphics but I don't find it too bad. Hopefully the high-resolution spotting issue will improve in the future. Give the lower res a test and see what you think. 

 

By the way, the cloud issue was improved in the last release:

    4. The issue with planes visually disappearing against the clouds at short distances has been minimized;

 

Please, I don't want this thread to get diverted to be about spotting as such, so please try and keep to the topic which is about the effect of the sun in terms of reflective shine on British camouflaged aircraft in comparison to German camouflaged aircraft.  I would not want this specific thread to get swallowed up in the general debate about aircraft spotting.  Thanks.

 

56RAF_Talisman 

[CountZero 1981]

its like this for most if not all allied fighters even vvs ones, they are more white, axis is more dark when looked from abow, good for id bad for hiding , this started with that update when they extended vis ranges from 9,5- what ever you can see 100km 

 

regarding visability,, me and rip have problem with contacts on ranges 4-9km from us, they are so hard to see its like they are invisable. And down low if airplane dark as axis is over forrest you lose him when you come 1-2km from it but you can easy see it from higher ranges. This is all on Expert visability, not alternate on like on normal ralisam. 

Edited November 29, 2019 by 77.CountZero

[ACG_Talisman 554]

18 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Same here. They shouldn’t do things to the graphics that encourage players to run lower settings. I can spot aircraft perfectly well in 4K

The important reason to post a video is to show what you see. Along with a track and your graphic settings. Then others can use the track and try to replicate the exact situation. If they can, then it’s probably an issue with the game. If they can’t then the problem could be on your end. Without that documentation it’s impossible for the Devs to evaluate. 

 

My squad and everyone I fly with can see there is a problem.  I use VR, but most I fly with don't and have a wide variety of PC's, monitors and graphics cards.

20 hours ago, 9./JG54_Schwengber said:

I have observed in other topics that this problem is already known. But I will try to make a video.

 

 

Thanks Schwengber, I am afraid I can't make and post video; very kind of you.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

7 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

its like this for most if not all allied fighters even vvs ones, they are more white, axis is more dark when looked from abow, good for id bad for hiding 

 

 

 

Thanks CountZero, I have not checked out VVS and other aircraft, but I am not surprised that you have found this.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

[71st_AH_Macro 34]

Ive noticed this when flying german on combat box.  Tempests and p51 light up like they got glow in the dark paint at long range then this dulls off when you are close enough for the skin to render.

[ACG_Talisman 554]

6 minutes ago, 71st_AH_Macro said:

Ive noticed this when flying german on combat box.  Tempests and p51 light up like they got glow in the dark paint at long range then this dulls off when you are close enough for the skin to render.

 

Exactly!  Thank you Macro, I have noticed this a lot in Combat Box and other servers.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

[LizLemon 1025]

The aircraft 3d models file defines what shader the aircraft uses as well as a few parameters fed to that shader - its stuff like spec brightness/attenuation, ssr, normal level, ect.

 

The near LOD0 (level of detail) 3d models are all the bumpchrome shader, although values with that shader vary from aircraft to aircraft. This is why some planes can be given an okish looking natural metal finish and others simply cant. When the plane model changes to LOD1, which is dependent on camera distance, the shader that second lod model uses isn't bumpchrome. This is why planes 'lose' their reflection with distance. 

 

The british aircraft being extra vs german ac may be because LOD3/4/whatever is using different shader values vs the german aircraft. I'll have to take a look.

 

This game really needs to 'rationalize' these values and make them the same for all aircraft. Why does the D9 look so much better than the A3? A big part of it is the values the bumpchrome shader is fed. The A3 can lose its polished plastic look with just a few changes in a hex editor. This stuff also causes lots of problems for skin makers because what works on one plane doesnt work on another.

[[LAS]JanMcQuack 28]

It is a shame that developers do not take the importance of this error, and I do not find an answer and I do not think it is so difficult to fix it. I lost the sim interest in recent months for this problem, having a 40 "4k screen and very low latency, having to lower the resolution to see something, I need to grab a magnifying glass to see if a pixel moves, in my opinion 😪

 

Edited December 5, 2019 by [LAS]Wochi
double text

[ACG_Talisman 554]

Aircraft LOD values appear different comparing, for example, British camouflage on Mustang, Spitfire and Tempest when compared to the Bf 109 and the FW 190.  This makes the British camouflage shine bright (white) in a different way to the Bf 109 and FW 190 camouflage. 

As a result, the British camouflage stands out highly visible from distance at certain angles from the sun in a way that the German aircraft don't.  German aircraft are much darker and harder to see.   Surely this makes no sense and provides one side with an advantage over the other. 

 

I hope the developers can fix this.

 

Is there a way that we as customers can compare the data assigned LOD values?

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

[ACG_Talisman 554]

Here is the issue.  Thanks to ala.rota.Emistico for the pictures and the bug report:

(The shine/white effect can be seen from many thousands of meters altitude, much higher than shown here)

 

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by 56RAF_Talisman

[[LAS]JanMcQuack 28]

On 12/5/2019 at 3:23 PM, [LAS]Wochi said:

It is a shame that developers do not take the importance of this error, and I do not find an answer and I do not think it is so difficult to fix it. I lost the sim interest in recent months for this problem, having a 40 "4k screen and very low latency, having to lower the resolution to see something, I need to grab a magnifying glass to see if a pixel moves, in my opinion 😪

 

  Going back to the topic of contact spoting, I have to refer to my previous messages and say that update 4.06, only shows a resounding improvement, I think that the developers found the way forward to continue improving contact spotting, this was an excellent improvement________With the last 3 updates we returned to the same problems always, losing contacts we are as at the beginning.😪

Edited September 1, 2020 by [LAS]JanMcQuack
Status change in visual simulation since update 4.09b