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Main differences Bf 109 G6 vs Late Version

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So a G-10 would be better? I thought that these were mostly the high-altitude escort Gruppe in the RLV?

 

But if it pans out the range to a reasonable extent then that might make more sense.

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1 minute ago, LukeFF said:

The Kuban campaign. 

 

 Again, if a BoN owner already had a Kuban-compatible G6, why would he buy it again as a collector plane? 

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3 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

Again, if a BoN owner already had a Kuban-compatible G6, why would he buy it again as a collector plane? 

 

Because the G-6 Late is not going to be a collector plane. 

 

Seriously, I don't know why this is so hard for some to understand:

 

-The G-6 we have right now is not relevant to 1944 scenarios. 

-There are still people out there who have not bought into the Great Battles series.

-There were G-6 "lates" all over the place in France in the run-up to D-Day.

-The G-6/AS did not show up in France until after the invasion began.

- Career mode will obviously begin at least 30 days prior to D-Day, maybe more.

 

You add all that up, and it's eminently obvious why a late G-6 was chosen. 

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10 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

 

 Again, if a BoN owner already had a Kuban-compatible G6, why would he buy it again as a collector plane? 


Again, the BoN G-6 is not compatible with Kuban. It has several upgrades compared to the collector’s G-6 that don’t fit the timespan of the Kuban career.

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1 minute ago, LukeFF said:

Because the G-6 Late is not going to be a collector plane. 

 

He is going to buy a collector plane, because he already has essentually the same plane, which is not a collector plane? So, if now a Fw190 A5 collector plane without U17 mod was announced, then BoK owners would rush to buy it, because the A5 that they own is not a collector plane? 

 

6 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

Seriously, I don't know why this is so hard for some to understand:

-The G-6 we have right now is not relevant to 1944 scenarios. 

 

I also don't know why this is hard to understand. The point is not that the collector G6 is relevant for 1944, but that it would be totally irrelevant for BoN owners, if they already had the plane.

6 minutes ago, [Pb]Cybermat47 said:

Again, the BoN G-6 is not compatible with Kuban. It has several upgrades compared to the collector’s G-6 that don’t fit the timespan of the Kuban career.

 

So, you already know which version of "late G6" we will have? Good for you. I refer back to my very first post in this thread: if it was a late G6, similar to BoBp G14, then it could be understandable. If it was similar to our collector G6, with possible additional options like MW50, rockets etc, then it would make the collector G6 irrelevant, as it is compatible with Kuban. You just lock the "late" mods and you have the same plane. Could of course be hard to understand for someone that would be happy to buy a collector Fw190 A5 without U17 mod, instead of choosing to just use already existing Fw190 A5 without the mod.

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13 hours ago, LukeFF said:

Sorry, but the G-6/AS is just not that relevant for the Normandy front - they showed up in one Gruppe in France after the invasion was underway and then were in France for about 2 weeks time before being pulled back to Germany.

 

But you already justified the inclusion of Ju-88C6 as not being only for Normandy map although it had minuscule use (what's that about relevance?) by it's use as a train buster on eastern front. Why apply a different standard to G-6/AS, and why follow up one questionable decision with a bad decision?

 

It is a perfectly historic and relevant aircraft for both Normandy and Bodenplatte map areas.

 

Maps have been used as an excuse too long to deny "certain" aircraft from being added to the sim - people went crazy when they thought the G-6 that was coming with Kuban might get (gasp!) an erla canopy. It was silly then and it's silly now.

 

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30 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

You just lock the "late" mods and you have the same plane.


What makes you think that the Erla canopy and possible tall tail will be mods? The fact that it’s specifically said to be the late version suggests that they won’t be.

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1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

Seriously, I don't know why this is so hard for some to understand

 

And that's probably what your problem is, you simply don't get it.

 

There is absolutely no reason not to flesh out the entire G-6 series now, (including G-6/AS) with having both Normandy map along with Bodenplatte map. It makes absolutely no sense to charge people a third time for G-6 if/when they add a G-6/AS at another time for another map after we've already paid for G-6 and G-6Late.

 

Do we not have high alt engine mod (M70) for Spit IX that was also rare? Were we charged 2-3 times for it?

 

We will pay for another G-14 if they do a G-14/AS and we will pay for a G-10...asking the community to pay for a G-6 three times is unacceptable.

 

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4 hours ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

(Half of the G-14s that attacked allied bases on January 1st had ASM engines)

 

141 of 164 onhand G-14s and 118 of 172 onhand G-14/ASs. Serviceability of the AS was not the best.

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12 hours ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

The only thing I wonder is can the C wing be ported to an earlier IX version for Normandy? I do not think many if any E wing IXs were around, so arguably that is less historical than a XIV.

 

Actually, the 'E'- aka Spitfire L.F .5 - wing was well established by D-Day, with Spitfire squadrons continuing to be re-equipped through June & July:

 

Tiffievibe004-001.jpg

Tiffievibe005-001.jpg

Edited by NZTyphoon
cut spurious material
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13 hours ago, DD_Fenrir said:

 

Whilst in terms of numbers and operational usefulness I see your angle on the 88C-6, it was nevertheless there, in daylight over the beaches. The 188, if not the entire Kampfwaffe in the West were not active in daylight operations, so unless GBS is planning to make radar a feature of GBS, the Ju-188, the Ju-88s , the He-177 and Do-217 are all largely irrelevant. At least the C-6 has some value in the Eastern Front maps also.

 

As for the Mk XIV's, three squadrons were equipped on the run up to D-Day and in the 2 months thereafter, and only increasing beyond - the equivalent of an entire Gruppe. That's not insignificant, despite as much as you'd like to believe it so. 

 

Furthermore, I wish some of you had perspectives a bit broader than competitive multiplayer - we are getting the V1, and a lot of entertainment will be had by many chasing them around the SE England and Channel portions of the map. No simulator has properly represented this before - i.e. with prototypical planes, V1s and a map - without requiring mods; it fits wholly within the timeframe of the Battle of Normandy package and I for one welcome the opportunity to have a go.

 

Fortunately for the Luftwaffe, the JU-88C was still a successful night fighter/heavy fighter  in 1944 and the 'insignificant' 190A-6 was the first sub variant to have  four MG 151s, so it was still a useful fighter: unfortunately for the Luftwaffe, the Spitfire XIV was available for 2 TAF from well before Bodenplatte; while still with ADGB, the only reason it wasn't more prominent in operations over the continent, prior to September 1944, was because the Allies had already established air-superiority over Europe prior to D-Day, and the XIV proved to be well-suited to intercepting and shooting down V-1s. As it was, there were more Spitfire F. Mk. XIVs in operational service during - and for some time after - D-Day than the odd 109G-5/AS (76 built*), G-6/AS (first one reached an operational unit in late-June/early July*) or G-14/AS (late August-early September 1944). One or two individuals with an abiding, long-smouldering prejudice against the Spitfire XIV, isn't a good enough reason for it to be excluded from a Battle of Normandy collectors plane set.

 

 

*Mermet, Jean-Claude: Messerschmitt Bf 109.

Edited by NZTyphoon

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1 hour ago, NZTyphoon said:

One or two individuals with an abiding, long-smouldering prejudice against the Spitfire XIV, isn't a good enough reason for it to be excluded from a Battle of Normandy collectors plane set.

 

Please stop it.

 

Nobody, not Kurfurst or anyone else has lobbied for the Spitfire XIV to be excluded from the sim - pointing out it's context in Normandy (along with other aircraft by the way) is not asking for it to be excluded.

 

You know which plane people are actively and actually lobbying to be excluded from the sim though? Yep, certain 109G-6 variants - that's the plane people are actively fighting against - and it's absurd.

On 11/27/2019 at 10:40 AM, 77.CountZero said:

If they didnt have G14 and A8 already in Bobp you would have them in BoN. So the only thing they could give axis is G6 and A6, its not like they had any options when you see whats already in game.

 

FW190A-9/F-9 could have (should have) already been in Bodenplatte - it actually participated in that particular battle (unlike P-38 or any 150-grade P-51) and 910 of the damned things were built by 1945. Especially since every Allied precious with every boost pressure and fuel type imaginable were added to the sim.

 

FW190A6 and A7 could then easily be in Normandy - with FW190A-8/F-8 paired with XIV as collector. It's also a more historical linear sequence.

 

But, by all means let's exclude the A-9 and heaven forbid we get all the real/actual 109G-6 variants - that would just be awful.

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4 hours ago, NZTyphoon said:

 

Actually, the 'E'- aka Spitfire L.F .5 - wing was well established by D-Day, with Spitfire squadrons continuing to be re-equipped through June & July:

 

Tiffievibe004-001.jpg

Tiffievibe005-001.jpg

 

I stand corrected 👍

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I'm hoping that they can add some pollys to the 109, 190, and Ju88 to match the D9 and later released planes higher resolution.

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thinking about the 2 Yaks and the Hurri now released without an actual context, i can imagine a 190A-/F-9 as a collector plane in the future  - as many more planes too.

With the channel, i would like to see a Mustang Mk.II -  low level hotrod.

Beaufighters to fight the Ju88C-6a over the sea .

Just examples.

 

And i just want to say, the development of maps/planes has not ended with BoN :dance:

Edited by III/JG53Frankyboy

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4 hours ago, CUJO_1970 said:

Fw190A-9/F-9 could have (should have) already been in Bodenplatte - it actually participated in that particular battle (unlike P-38 or any 150-grade P-51) and 910 of the damned things were built by 1945. Especially since every Allied precious with every boost pressure and fuel type imaginable were added to the sim.

 

If there was so many built by 1945 then why only17 Fw190A-9s participated in Bodenplatte? No Fw190F-9s.

 

Some 75 Fw190F-8s did participate in Bodenplatte.

 

 

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15 hours ago, Mac_Messer said:

 

Fly the 109K4 and 109G14 and tell to yourself if it is better

 

 

I meant that would a G-10 be a better option.

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Over the G6 Late? Yes cuz it has K4 engine. I was told however, that in BoN timeframe there was no G10.

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10 minutes ago, Mac_Messer said:

Over the G6 Late? Yes cuz it has K4 engine. I was told however, that in BoN timeframe there was no G10.

 

OK, from my limited knowledge I thought that a G-10 might be a good compromise.

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the bread and butter 109 of the Luftwaffe in France summer 1944 was a Bf109G-6 engined by a DB605 !

Yes, it can look different than our 1943 G-6 collector plane - actually like the in game G-14 !

BUT , and that is important for missionbuilders , ist Default engine is still a 605A !

 

DB605AS , ASM or AM can be included a modifications. But those were still not the Standard 109 over the Normandy summer 1944.

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41 minutes ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

 

OK, from my limited knowledge I thought that a G-10 might be a good compromise.

 

For a timeframe beginning in 11/44 yes, but not before that date. I bet we will see the G10 when they release a 44/45 eastfront expansion with Yak-3 and La-7.

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5 minutes ago, III/JG53Frankyboy said:

the bread and butter 109 of the Luftwaffe in France summer 1944 was a Bf109G-6 engined by a DB605 !

Yes, it can look different than our 1943 G-6 collector plane - actually like the in game G-14 !

BUT , and that is important for missionbuilders , ist Default engine is still a 605A !

 

DB605AS , ASM or AM can be included a modifications. But those were still not the Standard 109 over the Normandy summer 1944.

That specific version of the 109 will be slower by about 5km/h than the collector G-6 we already have. All the weight of the G-14 and none of the MW50.

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1 hour ago, III/JG53Frankyboy said:

the bread and butter 109 of the Luftwaffe in France summer 1944 was a Bf109G-6 engined by a DB605 !

Yes, it can look different than our 1943 G-6 collector plane - actually like the in game G-14 !

BUT , and that is important for missionbuilders , ist Default engine is still a 605A !

 

DB605AS , ASM or AM can be included a modifications. But those were still not the Standard 109 over the Normandy summer 1944.

And that is fine as long as that is historical. However, like other planes that have modifications that expand the capability beyond what was historically available for the SP career, I hope they add interesting modifications to make this G6 stand out from the G6 I already bought. 

 

Or make this the plain version and give some modifications to the collector G6. All I really care about is they make them different enough to be worth having both.

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4 minutes ago, Danziger said:

All I really care about is they make them different enough to be worth having both.

 

Exactly. I doubt they can do that with the G6. The G5/AS - G6/AS would offer that, IMHO of course.

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33 minutes ago, sevenless said:

 

Exactly. I doubt they can do that with the G6. The G5/AS - G6/AS would offer that, IMHO of course.

 

So, as a disinterested observer, what it the standard summer Normandy  ‘44 G-6? My poor brain is confused..

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6 hours ago, MiloMorai said:

If there was so many built by 1945 then why only17 Fw190A-9s participated in Bodenplatte? No Fw190F-9s.

 

Some 75 Fw190F-8s did participate in Bodenplatte.

 

 


Why didn’t more participate in that single battle on that one particular morning? Well, gosh Milo I would assume that since they had been produced already many months prior that day some had been lost, some unserviceable, some allocated to different units and fronts, and some they just couldn’t find enough German teenagers left from training units to round out their team.

 

If you own, play and support this sim financially you know that Bodenplatte actually takes place in the time frames surrounding (that means before and after) January 1st 1945...and even more so with upcoming Normandy map area. That may also go a little ways to understanding your but but but counterpoint interjections.

 

Do you own the sim, Milo?

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1 hour ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

 

So, as a disinterested observer, what it the standard summer Normandy  ‘44 G-6? My poor brain is confused..

 

There was no standard 44 G-6. All had 605A engine without MW50 boost. Could very well be a G6 (43) collector plane with retrofitted erla canopy or the collector G6 with a tall tail or the G14 we already have without AM engine and 605A instead which makes it a G6. Only game play relevant benefit you get over the G6 (early 43) would basically be the Erla hood.

 

In summer 1944 III./JG 1 went into action and switched from Paderborn to Beauvais-Tille. Those guys were flying the G5/U2 and G6/U2 variant with GM-1 injection. That could give the player something new to play. But if it is only about "another believable 109 for BoN" then I say, strip the G14 of its AM engine and replace it with the 605A and hey presto you have a perfectly legit 109 for 3/44-45 timeframe.

Edited by sevenless

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18 hours ago, CUJO_1970 said:

 

And that's probably what your problem is, you simply don't get it.

 

There is absolutely no reason not to flesh out the entire G-6 series now, (including G-6/AS) with having both Normandy map along with Bodenplatte map. It makes absolutely no sense to charge people a third time for G-6 if/when they add a G-6/AS at another time for another map after we've already paid for G-6 and G-6Late.

 

Do we not have high alt engine mod (M70) for Spit IX that was also rare? Were we charged 2-3 times for it?

 

We will pay for another G-14 if they do a G-14/AS and we will pay for a G-10...asking the community to pay for a G-6 three times is unacceptable.

 

This this this... So much this

  

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54 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

I like the Ju 88C-6.

 

I'd also rather have a flyable V-1/ Fi-103 than another Crapperschmitt 109.

and I will rather have another modification of Bf109 than bomber which i will not fly. Ju88c-6 could be only AI.

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22 hours ago, CUJO_1970 said:

 

And that's probably what your problem is, you simply don't get it.

 

There is absolutely no reason not to flesh out the entire G-6 series now, (including G-6/AS) with having both Normandy map along with Bodenplatte map. It makes absolutely no sense to charge people a third time for G-6 if/when they add a G-6/AS at another time for another map after we've already paid for G-6 and G-6Late.

 

Do we not have high alt engine mod (M70) for Spit IX that was also rare? Were we charged 2-3 times for it?

 

We will pay for another G-14 if they do a G-14/AS and we will pay for a G-10...asking the community to pay for a G-6 three times is unacceptable.

 

 

+1 to that.

 

I can get the why not sell the same plane three times part.

 

What I cannot get is why is it so hard to get in an (easily makeable from existing resources) /AS 'engine mod' for the so called 'G-6 late' for a plane that is both relevant to the map and is actually sorely missing from both Bodenplatte and Normandy for the lineup.

 

Brief one hour research reveals that at least four separate Luftwaffe Fighter Wings: III/JG 1, I/JG 3, I/JG 5, and II/JG 11 (plus some of their Stabschwarme) participated in the Battle of Normandy equipped fully or partially with a mix of G-5/AS and G-6/AS.

 

The argument that these planes would not be relevant for Normandy is simply bogus and makes me wonder if it based on simply insufficient research. 

 

G5AS Normandy.jpg

 

See also the G-5/AS of Gunther Specht (Gruppenkommandeure of II / JG 11) photographed in early April 1944.

spechtG5AS.jpg

Edited by VO101Kurfurst
Added Spech'ts G-5/AS
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18 hours ago, CUJO_1970 said:

Yep, certain 109G-6 variants - that's the plane people are actively fighting against - and it's absurd.

 

So, let's see here: 

 

G-6 Late: extremely common before and after D-Day, can be used for every day of career mode well into the fall of 1944.

G-6/AS: shows up only after D-Day, used by one Gruppe before they returned to Germany about 2 weeks later.

 

 I know what my choice would be if I had to make the decision about what to model.

2 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

Brief one hour research reveals that at least four separate Luftwaffe Fighter Wings: III/JG 1, I/JG 3, I/JG 5, and II/JG 11 (plus some of their Stabschwarme) participated in the Battle of Normandy equipped fully or partially with a mix of G-5/AS and G-6/AS.

 

II./JG 11 - nope

I./JG 5 - nope

I./JG 3 - yes

III./JG 1 - nope

 

I don't know what docs you are looking at, but surely you can do better than that.

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21 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

So, let's see here: 

 

G-6 Late: extremely common before and after D-Day, can be used for every day of career mode well into the fall of 1944.

G-6/AS: shows up only after D-Day, used by one Gruppe before they returned to Germany about 2 weeks later.

 

 I know what my choice would be if I had to make the decision about what to model.


Also, the G-6 Late just looks better.

 

Besides, who knows? The G-6/AS could even end up as being a modification for the G-6 Late.

 

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1 minute ago, [Pb]Cybermat47 said:


Besides, who knows? The G-6/AS could even end up as being a modification for the G-6 Late.

 

Seems the most logical option, would make the BoN G-6 more desirable for those who already own the collector version, and it would further expand on the G-6 capabilities in the multiplayer environment.

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34 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

II./JG 11 - nope

I./JG 5 - nope

I./JG 3 - yes

III./JG 1 - nope

 

You surely are looking here, right? https://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bijg3.html

 

I give you a hint: Walter Oesau (Cmdr. JG1) was shot down by P-38s in a G6/AS (green 13) in Mai 1944. Now look what you find here about the 109s of staff JG1 https://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bstjg1.html

 

Then look up what you know about G5/U2 and G6/U2. You might want to check also here: https://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biiijg1.html

 

Maybe you want to revise your list above a little...

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2 hours ago, sevenless said:

Then look up what you know about G5/U2 and G6/U2. You might want to check also here: https://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biiijg1.html

 

Maybe you want to revise your list above a little...

G-5/U2 =GM-1 between March '43 & June '44 G-6/U2 = GM-1*, nothing to do with G-5/AS or G-6/AS

About 5 minutes of research shows that;

III./JG 1 was equipped with G-6 and G-5/U2 and G-6/U2s from July '44 to October

I./JG 5 had no G-5/AS or G-6/AS

II./JG 11 had a smattering of AS variants from September '44: Specht, being the Gruppenkommandeur had one of them.

I./JG 3 is the only Gruppe listed as having G-5/G-6 or G-14/AS from July '44, right through the battle of Normandy (ended ~ end of August/ start of September '44).

 

So, 1 and a smattering out of 4 cited Gruppen were wholly, or partially equipped with G-5, G-6/AS variants during the Battle of Normandy. Plus at least one Gruppenkommandeur and one Geschwaderkommandeur.

 

*Jean-Claude Mermet: Messerschmitt Bf 109, pages 94 & 96; Jochen Prien & Peter Rodeike: Messerschmitt Bf 109 F, G & K Series, pages 107, 137

Edited by NZTyphoon
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1 hour ago, NZTyphoon said:

So, 1 and a smattering out of 4 cited Gruppen, plus some Gruppenkommandeur were wholly, or partially equipped with G-5, G-6/AS variants during the Battle of Normandy.

 

Thanks. So that means G6 (late) is not the only historically viable option for a 109 in BoN. There are other plausible options which can be integrated into BoN, deliver something new for old and new customers and at the same time would be perfectly plausible for the timeframe. That is all I am advocating here.

 

So either implement a standard G6 (late) which undisputably was present in large numbers but gamewise delivers nothing new for old customers over the G6 (43) or G14 (without boost) or implement a G5/6/AS which has some novelty factor for present customers or implement a G5/U2 or G6/U2 which could, with GM-1, give the customer at least some novelty over already existing 109s. Especially since the 109 of BoN could be used also in BoBP and the G14 (with MW50 locked as a G6 late) could in theory be used in BoN, the AS versions or at least a /U2 version would offer more than what "just another standard 109" could offer. Considering the fact that nearly 50% of 109s which were used on 1st January 1945 were of the AS version my personal vote would go for a G5/6/AS implementation in BoN. All else would be a lost opportunity for both games. IMHO of course.

 

 

Quote

II./JG 11 had a smattering of AS variants from September '44: Specht, being the Gruppenkommandeur had one of them.

 

Make that 4/44 and you have it dated near correctly. He was photographed with his own fancy new gear at Wunstorf in 4/44 with Kurt Tank.

 

Also. ww2.dk lists G5s for his unit in 4/44, but If we look at the photographs it is plain obvious that it is a G5/AS. Same with staff JG1. For May ww2.dk lists a G6, but we all know Oesau used his AS mount. So blindly believing ww2.dk might bear some risk because, by example you can´t read there that all G5/AS were retrofitted with the AS engine. Delivered as a G5, retrofitted with AS engine by Erla in Antwerp.

 

1 hour ago, NZTyphoon said:

III./JG 1 was equipped with G-6 and G-5/U2 and G-6/U2s from July '44 to October

2.44 9 Bf 109G-5/U2
3.44 20 Bf 109G-5/U2
etc.    
Edited by sevenless
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