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Main differences Bf 109 G6 vs Late Version

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14 minutes ago, LLv34_Temuri said:

The Erla Maschinenwerk aircraft factory that produced Messerschmitt Bf 109.

Thanks.

 

Have a nice day.

 

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I just wonder, if they do a late G6 in BoN, which is the same as collector G6 + additional extras, what would be the point of buying the collector plane after that? In that sense doing the G6/AS would make more sense, to at least differentiate from the collector plane. In a way I understand if BoN and BoBp 109G's were practically identical, as buying BoN and BoBp would give you lots of different content in other areas, but if someone buys BoN then what would be the point of buying also a collector plane that is identical to the plane you already have, just with less options? If they don't do AS model for BoN, because it is not relevant enough, it would actually make more sense to have a more basic late G6 in BoN and upgrade the collector G6 to include more options, like rockets, Erla canopy, MW50 and other kits to make buying the collector plane also worth considering.

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10 hours ago, [Pb]Cybermat47 said:


You have BoBp. People who start with BoN won’t have the G-14.

 

If you have Bon you will have BoBp ... so we dont need another same model G6 .. mybe they can do modification for G6 but it will be better for us another plane which we dont have like Uhu 219 😄 (wet dream) and this same i feel about A6 .. better for us A9. I much doubt that there will be someone who will own only BoN :)

Edited by Art

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6 minutes ago, Soilworker said:

But it's still not included in BoN.

 

It can be done very easily without significant workload. Thinking in game terms here: All the devs have to do to satisfy the late G6 demanding crowd is to take away the MW-50 boost from the G14 and replace the 605AM with the 605A and hey presto, you have a late G6. Or give the present G6 an Erla-hood and you have a not so very late but also not very early G6 and place it in BoN. G14 and G6 (late) will then be as different as G2 and G4 are.

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, sevenless said:

 

It can be done very easily without significant workload. Thinking in game terms here: All the devs have to do to satisfy the late G6 demanding crowd is to take away the MW-50 boost from the G14 and replace the 605AM with the 605A and hey presto, you have a late G6. Or give the present G6 an Erla-hood and you have a not so very late but also not very early G6 and place it in BoN. G14 and G6 (late) will then be as different as G2 and G4 are.

 

 

 

 

 

Perhaps I misunderstood, I thought you meant make a mod option for an existing plane from BoBp which people who own both it can use it in BoN as well. 

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5 minutes ago, Art said:

I much doubt that there will be someone who will own only BoN :)


Not everyone can afford to spend hundreds of dollars on video games.

7 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

I just wonder, if they do a late G6 in BoN, which is the same as collector G6 + additional extras, what would be the point of buying the collector plane after that?


You get an aircraft with 2x 13mm MGs and an optional 30mm to use over Kuban and Prokhorovka.

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2 minutes ago, [Pb]Cybermat47 said:

You get an aircraft with 2x 13mm MGs and an optional 30mm to use over Kuban and Prokhorovka.

 

Yes, I understand that. Now, if somebody buys BoN and he also gets practically the same plane to use over Kuban and Prokhorovka, why would he buy it again as a collector plane? Of course, if the BoN G6 did not have a 30mm cannon option or some other options that the collector plane has, then buying the collector plane would bring at least something new to him.

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6 minutes ago, Soilworker said:

 

Perhaps I misunderstood, I thought you meant make a mod option for an existing plane from BoBp

 

Nope I am not advocating to make mod options to already existing planes. I advocate to give both new and existing players a new option with the G6/AS they not already have with the existing G14 or G6 (early). I think that is more value for both new and old customer than just modding already existing airframes and sell them as new planes in BoN.

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2 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

Yes, I understand that. Now, if somebody buys BoN and he also gets practically the same plane to use over Kuban and Prokhorovka, why would he buy it again as a collector plane?


To use it over Kuban and Prokhorovka.

 

The collector’s Bf-109 G-6 is the early version, while the BoN one is the late version, presumably with the erla canopy, possibly the taller tail. It won’t fit the time period of Kuban or Prokhorovka, so someone who only buys BoN and BoK won’t be able to use the G-6 late in the BoK career, or any historically accurate content that uses the Prokhorovka map.

 

Now, some people might think it’s not worth getting the early G-6 just to use it in 1943 scenarios. In which case, no-one’s forcing you to buy it, so there’s not really any issue.

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2 minutes ago, [Pb]Cybermat47 said:

The collector’s Bf-109 G-6 is the early version, while the BoN one is the late version, presumably with the erla canopy, possibly the taller tail. It won’t fit the time period of Kuban or Prokhorovka, so someone who only buys BoN and BoK won’t be able to use the G-6 late in the BoK career, or any historically accurate content that uses the Prokhorovka map.

 

If it is different enough, for example different frame or engine (tail, AS etc), I can understand the difference. But if it is a G6 late, as the same as G6 collector + additional options, like lockable MW50 for example, how would it not fit Kuban map? Let's take a different example, we have a Fw190 A5 in game as part of a BoK. Would you buy a collector plane of "earlier" Fw190 A5, which is otherwise the same plane, but does not have the U17 strike modification, because it does not fit a certain period or map? 

19 minutes ago, [Pb]Cybermat47 said:

Now, some people might think it’s not worth getting the early G-6 just to use it in 1943 scenarios. In which case, no-one’s forcing you to buy it, so there’s not really any issue.

 

Well, if I was in a business of selling virtual planes, I might consider it an issue, if no-one is interested in buying, what I have to offer.

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15 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

But if it is a G6 late, as the same as G6 collector + additional options, like lockable MW50 for example, how would it not fit Kuban map?


As I said, the Erla canopy and possibly a tall tail. These weren’t present on G-6s until late 1943. 

16 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

Would you buy a collector plane of "earlier" Fw190 A5, which is otherwise the same plane, but does not have the U17 strike modification, because it does not fit a certain period or map? 


Yeah, if I liked the Fw-190 A-5 as much as I like the G-6.

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1 hour ago, sevenless said:

 

Nope I am not advocating to make mod options to already existing planes. I advocate to give both new and existing players a new option with the G6/AS they not already have with the existing G14 or G6 (early). I think that is more value for both new and old customer than just modding already existing airframes and sell them as new planes in BoN.

 

Ah I see, my bad. 

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49 minutes ago, [Pb]Cybermat47 said:

Yeah, if I liked the Fw-190 A-5 as much as I like the G-6.

 

Haha, seriously? 😁 That is truly remarkable, but from a normal customer point of view it just does not make sense, so it is not a very good way to do business.

Let's imagine that someone likes to use excel a lot and he has Microsoft Office installed on his computer, which includes full version of excel ... but he likes excel so much that he also buys a stand-alone copy of excel, a version that does not include macros, so he can use that for workbooks that do not contain macros.

 

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2 hours ago, LukeFF said:

Sorry, but the G-6/AS is just not that relevant for the Normandy front - they showed up in one Gruppe in France after the invasion was underway and then were in France for about 2 weeks time before being pulled back to Germany.

 

... and the you ask yourself why the Ju 88C or the MkXIV is relevant then. The fomer was active perhaps in the Bay of Biscay, the latter was present in a few Squadrons which were 99% engaged in patrols in pairs over England prior to the invasion or V1 intercept duties. 

 

As for the /AS aircraft, JG 11 had practically identical G-5/AS in April 1944 already, then there is G-14/AS which is pretty much the same as was around since July-August 1944.

 

Fact is the /AS equipped aircraft are one of the most important Luftwaffe fighter types for mid/late 1944 and they are neither present in Bodenplatte, and from the communication so far seems to be neither going to be present in Normandy.

 

Besides - just how hard it is to copy paste a K-4 cowling with minor modifications onto a G-6 and making very slight adjustments to the drag and engine model? Because the two planes are 90% the same. Same propeller. Same supercharger. There was a reason why the /AS aircraft came about in the spring of 1944 and that was precisely to have a quickly available aircraft with similar high altitude performance until the K4/605D development and production starts (which was supposed to be started in the spring of 1944).

 

As it is, it seems to me that somebody forgot to make his homework in this one.. but at least we get an utterly insignificant 190 subtype a Ju 88 variant that is basically a cheap mod of an existing airfract and a niché Spitfire variant which significance has to be looked over a magnifying glass to be even noticed.

Edited by VO101Kurfurst
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8 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

 

JG 11 had them in April 1944 already.

Only S./JG11 and II./JG11 used Bf109s.

 

II./JG11 was based in Germany, Wunstorf (NW of Hannover, ~22km) and Hustedt (SE of Bremen, ~30km) til 6.6.44.

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A “Late” G-6 that’s just a G-14 without MW50 is a straight downgrade anyway; it’s slower than the early G-6.

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21 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

As it is, it seems to me that somebody forgot to make his homework in this one.. but at least we get an utterly insignificant 190 subtype a Ju 88 variant that is basically a cheap mod of an existing airfract and a niché Spitfire variant which significance has to be looked over a magnifying glass to be even noticed.

Calls a BF109 90% the same as a latter variant, bemoans it's absence, but then has the stones to call the 190 insignificant (better then yet another fucking BF109), the Ju88 a cheap mod (as though the G-6/AS isn't) and the spitfire niche (despite being on almost everyones wishlist). Couldn't be more biased and single-minded if you tried, could you Kurfurst?

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50 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

G-14/AS which is pretty much the same as was around since July-August 1944

Hard to be around then as they weren't built til Sept '44.

 

G-5/AS (High-altitude fighter with DB 605AS engine)

G-6/AS (High-altitude fighter with DB 605AS engine)

59 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

... and the you ask yourself why the Ju 88C or the MkXIV is relevant then. The fomer was active perhaps in the Bay of Biscay, the latter was present in a few Squadrons which were 99% engaged in patrols in pairs over England prior to the invasion or V1 intercept duties

 

More Spit XIVs around than 1.98ata Bf109K-4s

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28 minutes ago, ShadowStalker887 said:

Calls a BF109 90% the same as a latter variant, bemoans it's absence, but then has the stones to call the 190 insignificant (better then yet another fucking BF109), the Ju88 a cheap mod (as though the G-6/AS isn't) and the spitfire niche (despite being on almost everyones wishlist). Couldn't be more biased and single-minded if you tried, could you Kurfurst?

I, for one, have my reservations about the Ju 88; I’m not going to fly that around when 1. There are Mustangs, Typhoons, Spitfires and a whole mess of other bad juju around and 2. It doesn’t really bring any capability that I didn’t already have with the 110G-2 but there lies the point:

 

some people who play this game for the first time are not going to have BoK and so not have the 110, and they’ll need a German heavy fighter. The presence of the Ju 88C in theatre gives the devs a convenient way around this. 


the same issue presents itself with the 109; people who are just buying Battle of Normandy as their first BoX series title are going to need one, as you can’t have a WWII ETO flight sim without one. My issue here comes from the ambiguity of what exactly we’re getting. I’ll be more than happy with a late model G-6 that could be modded to have MW50 or a G-6/AS. If it’s just the early G-6 but with associated drag increases and a ton of modifications than that’s ok too, though I’ll probably stick to either the early G-6 or G-14 as the situations allows. Right now “late” is really ambiguous and I think that’s what’s causing all the consternation.

 

ultimately, I have no say on the matter, I can only hope, and talk about what I’d like to see. I’m not a dev and I’m certainly very happy that the RAF and USAAF is being fleshed out.

Edited by AndytotheD

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3 hours ago, Soilworker said:

 

But it's still not included in BoN. 

 

But Count you're only thinking in terms of (axis) competitive multiplayer, which is fine but not the main purpose of this sim. 

 

I think most people are interested in (fairly) accurately reenacting parts of the air war. 

 

But look how it will be during preorder/early acces period.

New players atracted to game by bobp and bon will come and then see standard bobp with 8 airplanes for 50$, out of witch you can easy use 4 or more for Normandy missions either in SP or MP.

And thats 50$ compared to 80$ for BoN, and in 1-1,5year it will be first discount of 25 or 33% on bobp, and on top he can just get 109g6 that is collectable for 66-75% off price any time.

So why would he then buy BoN if they are axis fighter type that is prevelante in this type of games, but if you add AS engines as mod for its 109G6 in BoN he will see oh thats 109 now that is better at high alts and eaqual on mid-low to g14 from bobp so its easy win for devs to offer this mod for example.

And its more of tricking/encuriging player to see value in buying alo BoN then balance thing as online youll have G14s and A8s and so on so axis will not be screwed there, and in SP you make your own balance.

And lesons learned from bobp airplane engine mods i belive it would be nice addon to game.

 

When this BoN was anounced i talked with tm8 and hes saying to me why would he buy bon when he can just get spit14 as separate airplane as its collectable and will probably be made as one of the last, and he can just use tempest and spit9 p-38 from bobp online on map in meantime. Now if hes not under my direct orders to buy whole bon thing or play alone next year he would probably not get it and just wait for end of early acces and get spit14 and later on maybe rest as razerback 51/47 dont atract mutch any of us with its poor rear view compared to bubble ones.

Edited by 77.CountZero
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4 minutes ago, AndytotheD said:

some people who play this game for the first time are not going to have BoK and so not have the 110, and they’ll need a German heavy fighter. The presence of the Ju 88C in theatre gives the devs a convenient way around this. 

 

To quote Juri JS from the other thread, which also my understanding: "The Ju-88C6a was the heavy fighter version without radar. In France it was flown by V./KG 40 and later by parts of ZG 1, who flew missions over the Bay of Biscay. ZG 1 also flew missions against the Allied beachheads in June 1944 but suffered heavy losses and was withdrawn after a few days.'

 

So basically by Normandy, it was an obsolate type that still soldiered on in secondary roles, and its role was brief and wasn't very significant. For a heavy fighter/attacker role, the Germans already get the excellent Me 410. In the bomber department, however, the Germans lack planes, as most of what we have are early/mid war variants of the Ju 88 and He 111, but none of the later stuff. Which brings me the question why it isn't some variant Ju 188 instead. Some part of the modelling can be skipped as its basically an upgraded Ju 88 (hint - Ju 188 series started with the E model ;) the plane was just 'rebranded' from Ju 88E to Ju 188E at some point), which would bring something new to the table.

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12 minutes ago, AndytotheD said:

I, for one, have my reservations about the Ju 88; I’m not going to fly that around when 1. There are Mustangs, Typhoons, Spitfires and a whole mess of other bad juju around and 2. It doesn’t really bring any capability that I didn’t already have with the 110G-2 but there lies the point:

 

some people who play this game for the first time are not going to have BoK and so not have the 110, and they’ll need a German heavy fighter. The presence of the Ju 88C in theatre gives the devs a convenient way around this. 


the same issue presents itself with the 109; people who are just buying Battle of Normandy as their first BoX series title are going to need one, as you can’t have a WWII ETO flight sim without one. My issue here comes from the ambiguity of what exactly we’re getting. I’ll be more than happy with a late model G-6 that could be modded to have MW50 or a G-6/AS. If it’s just the early G-6 but with associated drag increases and a ton of modifications than that’s ok too, though I’ll probably stick to either the early G-6 or G-14 as the situations allows. Right now “late” is really ambiguous and I think that’s what’s causing all the consternation.

 

ultimately, I have no say on the matter, I can only hope, and talk about what I’d like to see. I’m not a dev and I’m certainly very happy that the RAF and USAAF is being fleshed out.

I got no issue with you or BF-109's in general, I'm just sick of Kurfurst's bitching about not getting everything he wants. We have more goddamn BF-109's in this sim then anything else by a significant margin, so I'm pissed off by him calling the devs lazy over not getting a specific, functionally indistinguishable variant of it.

 

Edited by ShadowStalker887
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1 hour ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

 

... and the you ask yourself why the Ju 88C or the MkXIV is relevant then. The fomer was active perhaps in the Bay of Biscay, the latter was present in a few Squadrons which were 99% engaged in patrols in pairs over England prior to the invasion or V1 intercept duties. 

 

Whilst in terms of numbers and operational usefulness I see your angle on the 88C-6, it was nevertheless there, in daylight over the beaches. The 188, if not the entire Kampfwaffe in the West were not active in daylight operations, so unless GBS is planning to make radar a feature of GBS, the Ju-188, the Ju-88s , the He-177 and Do-217 are all largely irrelevant. At least the C-6 has some value in the Eastern Front maps also.

 

As for the Mk XIV's, three squadrons were equipped on the run up to D-Day and in the 2 months thereafter, and only increasing beyond - the equivalent of an entire Gruppe. That's not insignificant, despite as much as you'd like to believe it so. 

 

Furthermore, I wish some of you had perspectives a bit broader than competitive multiplayer - we are getting the V1, and a lot of entertainment will be had by many chasing them around the SE England and Channel portions of the map. No simulator has properly represented this before - i.e. with prototypical planes, V1s and a map - without requiring mods; it fits wholly within the timeframe of the Battle of Normandy package and I for one welcome the opportunity to have a go.

 

Edited by DD_Fenrir
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Oh yeah, that’s a good point. Has anyone thought that there’s going to be Mustang IIIs bombing around at 425mph at 80” only 4,000 feet msl?

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24 minutes ago, DD_Fenrir said:

for the Mk XIV's, three squadrons were equipped on the run up to D-Day and in the 2 months thereafter, and only increasing beyond - the equivalent of an entire Gruppe. That's not insignificant, despite as much as you'd like to believe it so. 

 

It’s not a lot of them and it is not critical to the Normandy campaign, but there are 5 (6?) squadrons operational by Spring of ‘45 so like the Arado (which was a tiny handful) and Mossie I think it was included for completing the whole ETO set and it is a lovely aircraft so I am happy to see it. But, yes, it is a minority platform by RAF standards if less so by that of the Luftwaffe (5 x 24 a/c in ‘45 is virtually a Germany fighter wing).

 

The only thing I wonder is can the C wing be ported to an earlier IX version for Normandy? I do not think many if any E wing IXs were around, so arguably that is less historical than a XIV.

 

The C-6 is a bit of an outside, I agree with Kurfurst on that but in defence of the team I wonder if there is enough 188 material to make it?

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From what Jason posted in the Normandy thread, they don't have the time and resources to build both a brand new ME-410 and Ju-188, so choices had to be made. The Ju-88c6 is based on the A-4 frame we already have in game, so will be quicker to build.

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12 minutes ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

 

The only thing I wonder is can the C wing be ported to an earlier IX version for Normandy? I do not think many if any E wing IXs were around, so arguably that is less historical than a XIV.

 

 

If one is dreaming, Have a C wing on the Mk IX, with the smaller original tail as is on the Mk V before the introduction of the tall tail for the late Mk IX's, and with the option of a merlin 61 as well as the 66 we currently have for an early Mk IX, for late 42 and 43 scenarios on the map, Dieppe, i'm looking at you!

Edited by DD_fruitbat

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Just now, DD_fruitbat said:

 

If one is dreaming, Have a C wing on the Mk IX, with the smaller original tail as is on the Mk V before the introduction of the tall tail for the late Mk IX's, and with the option of a merlin 61 as well as the 66 we currently have for an early 1942 Mk IX.

 

D’oh! Forgot we have a V 😃

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21 minutes ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

 

D’oh! Forgot we have a V 😃

 

Mk V has the wrong wing of course though, quite a few visible differences, not least the blister size and rads iirc.

 

And my dream would require two new fm's, mk IX Merlin 66 with different tail and rudder (ok marginal difference, but different non the less) and the merlin  61 engine, but but but Dieppe!🤣

Edited by DD_fruitbat
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It's quite obvious that a few of the aircraft in this pack are meant to be there more for Bodenplatte, mostly the collector aircraft, and that equally there's a few airplanes from there that will suit BoN very well, too. The two expansions will overlap very nicely and we'll have a pretty well developed feeling front. I also think that adding less competitive aircraft isn't a bad thing, people should be more willing to challenge themselves, anyway

 

That said, I'm still racking my brain as to how this Bf-109 will be in any way notable compared to the lot we have. The 190 I think will be fun, having the firepower of the A-8 but the more nimble handling of earlier models sounds like the ideal Anton to me, but the 109 is just... If it has the new canopy and MW50 it's just the G-14 we already have, isn't it? And if it doesn't have those, what is the collector G-6 missing?

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For Pete`s sake, if you don`t know the first thing about later 109`s just do some research and stop saying stupid stuff like that.

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Literally everything I have found online points to the G-14 being a standardisation of late G-6 upgrades. If there is something I am missing you are welcome to enlighten me with your evidently superior knowledge

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Whilst the German fighter situation is starting to get dire in terms of what aircraft we have left, it is not so bad that we have no choice but to have an aircraft already ingame with nothing different but a new tail + canopy. (Bf-109G-6). The G-6(14)AS variants are significant and I would prefer it to be in the game then a late production G-6 that offers no real value added when we have the G-6 and G-14 already.

Edited by =362nd_FS=RoflSeal

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1 hour ago, =621=Samikatz said:

Literally everything I have found online points to the G-14 being a standardisation of late G-6 upgrades. If there is something I am missing you are welcome to enlighten me with your evidently superior knowledge

 

You are not missing anything. G14 is a late G6 with AM engine and MW 50. Take that away from the G14 and you have a late G6.

 

 

Unbenannt.jpg

Edited by sevenless

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I personally think it would be a wasted opportunity to not include an ASM engine (either standard or as modification) for the late G-6. It's appropiate for the time period, even if not in the highest numbers it fills a gap that's needed for BoBP (Half of the G-14s that attacked allied bases on January 1st had ASM engines). And it's also useful for mission building... Currently in MP if someone wants to have a good German high altitude performance plane he needs to take a K-4 which sometimes isn't available based on the mission timeframe setting, a late G-6/AS fills this gap. In regards to the numbers game the Ar 234 (as pointed out by Davesteu only a couple unarmed prototypes did the recon missions over the D Day landings), the Spit Mk XIV and Ju 88C-6 are already in this category.

If not for BoBP, if not as a G-14 mod, if not for BoN... I don't see this coming any other time soon... Afaik they weren't used in the East for an hypothethical inclusion in a late Eastern Front expansion (Looks like the G-10 would be reserved for that scenario). And as a standalone collector plane it would leave a bad taste, as all the tools are available to  make it without much trouble (K-4 supercharger, propeller and cowling, G-14 airframe) compared to other candidates for collector.

Edited by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard
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They are already giving a reason for Ju88C6 inclusion for BoN is that it was used on the eastern front for train busting and its not a collector aircraft.

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1 hour ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

I personally think it would be a wasted opportunity to not include an ASM engine (either standard or as modification) for the late G-6. It's appropiate for the time period, even if not in the highest numbers it fills a gap that's needed for BoBP (Half of the G-14s that attacked allied bases on January 1st had ASM engines). And it's also useful for mission building... Currently in MP if someone wants to have a good German high altitude performance plane he needs to take a K-4 which sometimes isn't available based on the mission timeframe setting, a late G-6/AS fills this gap. In regards to the numbers game the Ar 234 (as pointed out by Davesteu only a couple unarmed prototypes did the recon missions over the D Day landings), the Spit Mk XIV and Ju 88C-6 are already in this category.

If not for BoBP, if not as a G-14 mod, if not for BoN... I don't see this coming any other time soon... Afaik they weren't used in the East for an hypothethical inclusion in a late Eastern Front expansion (Looks like the G-10 would be reserved for that scenario). And as a standalone collector plane it would leave a bad taste, as all the tools are available to  make it without much trouble (K-4 supercharger, propeller and cowling, G-14 airframe) compared to other candidates for collector.

Correct, as there were no G14s prior to the G6Late, especially when taken GM-1 into account.

 

Not sure if the G6 we have now has Flettner tabs? Every little bit helps, even in the time period of absence of G14s, which in effect should be excluded from such scenarios.

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