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IndianJones

AI improvements gratitude

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Just wanted to write a note to say thanks for all the hard work with the AI - took a Bf-109 G14 up in career mode last night and got into a real furball with the AI. It was so gratifying to see enemy Spits ducking and weaving - at one point I thought the AI was going to get stuck in the constant turn that I used to see all the time, but then it dove down and tried its best to throw me off its tail. It made finally getting the kill all the more satisfying! 

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1 hour ago, IndianJones said:

Just wanted to write a note to say thanks for all the hard work with the AI - took a Bf-109 G14 up in career mode last night and got into a real furball with the AI. It was so gratifying to see enemy Spits ducking and weaving - at one point I thought the AI was going to get stuck in the constant turn that I used to see all the time, but then it dove down and tried its best to throw me off its tail. It made finally getting the kill all the more satisfying! 

 

Agreed, they do continue to improve the AI.

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Simulating accurate, believable combat maneuvers are way more important to me than simulating blackouts when pulling Gs.  

Have not had much time to experience the tweaked AI but if the monotonous NASCAR turning has been toned down, my sincere thanks to the dev team!!!

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43 minutes ago, smink1701 said:

Simulating accurate, believable combat maneuvers are way more important to me than simulating blackouts when pulling Gs. 

For me everything else about AI is more important, as the dogfights make about 1% of the mission time. It is nice to have accurate dogfighting, but for me believable flying in formation and all the behaviour of the friendly AI would be a much more important improvement.

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AI will forever be a work in progress, but the important thing is that it is progressing.   Hat's off to the  developer doing the work.

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46 minutes ago, Zeev said:

Ahmmm ahmmm..

That's just Hans dropping in for tea, nothing to see here, nothing to see.

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16 hours ago, Zeev said:

Ahmmm ahmmm... 😄

 

 

In my opinion very accurate AI. I've seen the same maneuvers playing online with human pilots.

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THe AI is getting better yes. I believe I even see BnZ maneuvres now. It seems as if it has a better idea how to handle energy now.

Very glad to see that it is worked on!
Cheers

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I have also seen them completely F up their energy management and plow into the earth at mach 3 with their hair on fire after trying to dive down upon me.

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Followed a mustang into a vertical climb, almost getting my cross hair on him he wiped  his rudder, flicking him 180° around into a seemingly uncontrolled spin - i watched in amazement how he quickly recovered, thinking WTF?!? Perfect timing, perfect execution

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I wouldn`t call most of what I saw improvements.

When fighting vertical, AI often falls into a spin and into the ground. Also not much changed with AI performing unbelievable maneuvers and fainting repeatedly.  BnZ planes go purely horizontal after their BnZ pass is amiss. AI still takes high deflection shots from up to 500m but cannot hit anything from dead six. In bomber busting missions AI often totaly ignores the target and goes for escort. In the missions` end still most of the pilots in flight are dead or wounded if anything interesting happens during a sortie. AI commands still doesn`t seem to be working. And so on.

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4 hours ago, =LG=Mad_Mikhael said:

In my opinion very accurate AI. I've seen the same maneuvers playing online with human pilots.

Yeah, I've had human pilots kill themselves trying to get me on landing or takeoff, its oddly satisfying!

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I've been waiting for this thread to appear!

 

In my honest opinion - they AI work has been the most significant thing in the last two patches.

 

It still needs work of course - but every improvement fixes the most glaring problems with this sim (AI who can be predictably tricked into flying into the ground, AI who get stuck in perpetual gentle defensive turns that can be followed easily due to better energy management by the player etc.)

 

Hopefully once the AI gets fixed they'll be able to introduce different AI tactics (e.g. maintaining vs. losing altitude in a dogfight, whether to fight vertical, whether to engage in periods of straight acceleration i.e. 'zoom and boom' but on the level')...

 

P.S. I remember that they had good energy fighting AI in RoF at one point but stopped it because it was too frustrating for most pilots. It makes me think though: Perhaps assessing the relative strengths of the enemy plane and adapting tactics is a major part of AI skill? Maybe have lower skilled AI pick the wrong kind of fight when encountering a plane which is better at that fight... and have aces stand out because they can't be tricked into the wrong fight for their plane? I can dream anyway!

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56 minutes ago, Mac_Messer said:

I wouldn`t call most of what I saw improvements.

When fighting vertical, AI often falls into a spin and into the ground. Also not much changed with AI performing unbelievable maneuvers and fainting repeatedly.  BnZ planes go purely horizontal after their BnZ pass is amiss. AI still takes high deflection shots from up to 500m but cannot hit anything from dead six. In bomber busting missions AI often totaly ignores the target and goes for escort. In the missions` end still most of the pilots in flight are dead or wounded if anything interesting happens during a sortie. AI commands still doesn`t seem to be working. And so on.

+1

Exactly my observations. Maybe some very minor improvements, but the AI in general & the interaction with them is still a mess.

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I wish they would disconnect the gun harmonization distance of the AI aircraft from mine, makes no sense at all.  If I take a 38 and set it out to 500 meters, now I have Fw-190's taking 500 meter high angle deflection shots, bizarre and absurd.  Seriously, with wing cannons....

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1 hour ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

now I have Fw-190's taking 500 meter high angle deflection shots, bizarre and absurd.  Seriously, with wing cannons....

The Focke Wulf also has two wingroot cannons, and as you are flying a P 38, it has to be either a A8 or D9, so additionally two 13mm machineguns, so much less absurd than it would be with a Spitfire, Tempest, P 51 or P 47.

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Just tried a new career using the Tempest, 56 Squadron, the flight has to attack a train, we encounter 190s near to but the lead ignores.:o:

 

We attack the target with the enemy on our tails, lead and all others ignore.

 

We fly the route to base, still ignoring the enemy, they catch up near the airfield, still ignored.

 

I already downed a 190 earlier, and a train wagon but ultimately die around the base trying to protect my landing buddies who still ignore not only the earlier 190s that actually turned back but the 109s that take up the fight around our base.

 

So. exactly how has the AI improved?

 

Nonsense, it is still as bad as always, chasing you back to base as always when common sense would tell any real pilot to go home, and now it seems your own flight ignores the threat.:(

 

So exactly how did anything improve?

 

Career is porked, simple as, the best way to get any kind of enjoyment from this sim is the scripted campaign.

 

I have just wasted more hours of my miserable existence trying to get through yet another career only to die yet again trying to fly the first mission twice.

 

The new AI guy really needs to get his/her act together or what in many respects is a wonderful game will start to loose the majority single player population who buy into everything usually.

 

And besides that, why does everything start in the air unless you ask for the runway?  If you cannot take off and land then you should be in a tank or another game.:thank_you:

 

Take care, I am going to watch telly instead.

 

Wishing you all the very best, Pete.:biggrin:

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It depends... I've read an after action report of a Spitfire pilot who followed Bf-109s to their home airbase and shot one down (in spite of having a cannon jam) while they were parading over it. I think it was in "Black Crosses off my wingtips".

 

Your account of the squadron not responding though does emphasize that the AI controlling a fighter, and the AI controlling a group of aircraft (and how they adjust to new circumstances) are two very different things.

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8 hours ago, schurem said:

I have also seen them completely F up their energy management and plow into the earth at mach 3 with their hair on fire after trying to dive down upon me.

To be fair, I have seen plenty of human pilots do exactly that. 

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QMB 1v1: Spitfire VB vs. ace AI Me262. Ace AI 262 decides to turn fight. Massive AI investment still needed.

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16 minutes ago, Dagwoodyt said:

QMB 1v1: Spitfire VB vs. ace AI Me262. Ace AI 262 decides to turn fight. Massive AI investment still needed.

 

They turn fight with the I-16 as well.  I’m hopeful that this new guy who is looking into the AI will turn things around though (no pun intended).  Now that the devs are celebrating their tenth year in the game, it’s definitely a good time for a change. 

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On 11/28/2019 at 11:38 PM, Finkeren said:

To be fair, I have seen plenty of human pilots do exactly that. 

 

It wasn't a criticism really, just an observation 😉

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What has been improved:

-energy fighting behavior actually exists now and is halfway decent

-ai will take advantage of having more engine power and climb away from you and disengage and reengage when you give up

-ai will no longer get stuck in a continuous turn

-ai will actively maneuver to attempt to shake you from their tail

-ai will attempt to force an overshoot by chopping the throttle and overall engine management is actually used by the ai

-ai will now climb or dive to gain an advantage during combat

 

what needs improvement:

-ai wing-men still ignore orders

-ai wing-men still have a hard time balancing flying the objective and defending themselves (they will either ignore enemy aircraft, or abandon the objective to peruse enemy aircraft)

-ai do not work together to take out targets or cover each other

-ai still crash into the ground (this has improved with the last patch, but still there)

-ai still has a hard time hitting targets that are directly in front of them flying strait vs sniper accuracy with 90 degree deflection shots (huge disparity here)

-ai aggravation parameters (they will chase you down to a ridiculous level and will not disengage even if you are out running them deep in friendly territory 15+ miles)

 

Overall all of the needs improvement category issues have always been there and have yet to be fixed.  all of the stuff that has improved for the most part is stuff that has never been seen in this game before.  energy fighting, evasive maneuvers, vertical movement, and power management did not exist with the old ai and now all of that is stuff that the ai does.  This is a MASSIVE improvement considering that they have only started to address ai for 6 months.  AI is far from perfect, but what i measure is how far it has come in the last 6 months, and it has improved drastically.  I used to fly this feeling like i was invincible due to the ai being basically targets to shoot that had no chance of even coming close to taking a shot at you.  Now i get shot down from time to time and have to take them seriously if i wan't to get through a campaign.  

 

edit:  one thing i notice looking at this is combat maneuvering behaviors has dramatically improved and seems to be the current focus for the current programmer.  What needs to improve are non-maneuvering behaviors such as formation flying, when to disengage, working together with other planes (ai and player).  

 

Nice job with the ai. I look forward to see what improves in the next update

 

Edited by zdog0331
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My favorite mode is against AI in quick missions, and tonight I was pulling my hair out, must be something I'm doing wrong.. I decided to go up against a bunch of Spitfire Vbs, only to discover that Spit can out turn, out climb, out run, every German plane I have, I even have an easier time bringing down Mustangs. I also set the Spits to "novice"> After an hour of trying, I finally gave up, decided to go to bed. lol

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16 minutes ago, onlyforbrian said:

I decided to go up against a bunch of Spitfire Vbs, only to discover that Spit can out turn, out climb, out run, every German plane I have

They can out turn you. But you out climb and out run them. If they can, you got slow. Never turn with a Spit, especially if there‘s another Spit around. Stay above them and prepare a good shot. There‘s a reason the Spit V was popular, even though inferior in  performance to your 109F.

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The energy fighting has been really impressive. Where enemies of the past simply turned turned turned, making planes who were not meant to fight in the horizontal like the 109 useless, they are now quite effective flying to their strong suit, using those vertical energy tactics. I would say the AI, as far as combat maneuvers goes, is reaching an acceptable point now. 

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Unfortunately I only see improvements for enemy AI. But everything that has to do with friendly AI, the immersion of flying in a team of squadmates, what makes the fun of playing a career or a campaign, hasn't got any improvements so far. Only the QMB egoshooter, for those, who just want to have some fun with a lot of turning action.

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8 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

Unfortunately I only see improvements for enemy AI. But everything that has to do with friendly AI, the immersion of flying in a team of squadmates, what makes the fun of playing a career or a campaign, hasn't got any improvements so far. Only the QMB egoshooter, for those, who just want to have some fun with a lot of turning action.

Yea.  I do see the behaviors affecting friendly ai, however the things we want out of friendly ai are different from enemy ai.  Right now there is no teamwork to speak and any communication basically goes in one ear and out the other.  As i mentioned in my detailed reply the combat behaviors have improved, however the teamwork aspect of working together haven't. i have seen enemy ai have 7 planes going after 1 plane when there are 8 other friendly planes in the area.  they all locked onto that singular plane.  rather than any teamwork like 2 of them taking point on that one and the others covering, they all went for it and even friendly fiered one of their own.  The combat is great, but right now they need to work on communication between the ai so commands like cover me can actually do something

 

though to be fair one guy can only do so much at a time, so i expect this will be worked on in the future especially since this aspect is crucial for things like carrier ops in the pacific theater that the devs have teased us with for so long.  because of the teamwork needed, there is no way that the current ai would be able to be any fun in that area.  Its why I expect that the communication aspect will be worked on in time.  But what is the top priority before that happens is flight maneuvers since communication needs to take all of those maneuvers into account.  From a coding standpoint i expect if they start getting the teamwork ai working then program new maneuvers, then the ai will simply stop working right and cause glitches.

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@Missionbug That all sounds like a mission scripting issue to me, like the mission design has the AI set to behave as if flying IL-2 or similar attack planes, and not attempt to fight attackers as fighters. I've only messed with the mission editor a tiny bit, but I do seem to recall the ability to set the AI to ignore all other aircraft and merely fly to their waypoints. 

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13 minutes ago, migmadmarine said:

I've only messed with the mission editor a tiny bit, but I do seem to recall the ability to set the AI to ignore all other aircraft and merely fly to their waypoints. 

Yes it sounds as if the waypoints were set to high priority, which leads to exactly this behaviour. When you have a fighter escort, this is how it should be, IMHO, as your job is attacking the ground target, but without escort, you clearly won't wait for the enemy shooting you down.

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On 11/27/2019 at 2:36 PM, Zeev said:

Ahmmm ahmmm... 😄

 

 

This AI looks like people in multiplayer. 😜

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2 hours ago, Sokol1 said:

This AI looks like people in multiplayer. 😜

Which means, absolutely unrealistic and without any immersion:negative:

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3 hours ago, migmadmarine said:

@Missionbug That all sounds like a mission scripting issue to me, like the mission design has the AI set to behave as if flying IL-2 or similar attack planes, and not attempt to fight attackers as fighters. I've only messed with the mission editor a tiny bit, but I do seem to recall the ability to set the AI to ignore all other aircraft and merely fly to their waypoints. 

 

You are correct... the waypoints can be assigned a priority. High, Medium, and Low.

 

High, ignore all enemy craft and fly to the waypoint. Medium may or may not engage enemy craft. Low, engage any enemy craft along current waypoint route.

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I think there are some issues with how ground attack fighter bomber missions are generating at the moment, since my AI flight never stays in the AO long enough to drop all their bombs, and usually head for home with munitions still aboard (like the threshold for "mission success" needs to be set higher so they don't trigger the next waypoint yet)

 

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4 minutes ago, migmadmarine said:

I think there are some issues with how ground attack fighter bomber missions are generating at the moment, since my AI flight never stays in the AO long enough to drop all their bombs, and usually head for home with munitions still aboard (like the threshold for "mission success" needs to be set higher so they don't trigger the next waypoint yet)

 

 

There are some ground attack logic problems in the most recent build.

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I find myself agreeing with both the OP and some of the critical posts. As an SPlayer, the friendly AI even in a mission with no enemy contact was what frustrated me most about Career, especially taking forever to land four planes because one AI cannot land and completely clear the runway in the time it takes for the others to make a complete circuit of the airfield.

 

The key thing is that there has been progress and someone is working on it - after years of this not being the case.  

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9 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

AI cannot land and completely clear the runway in the time it takes for the others to make a complete circuit of the airfield.

  

 

This is a result of the hard-coded AI landing logic that I've been wanting to be changed forever now.

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Hummm, people being happy because the AI resembles noob human piloting on multiplayer.

I mean, what the heck?

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