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Discussion of the Battle of Normandy Announcement

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@CCG_Pips

I do not disagree, but I look at what I got from IL-2 and from DCS.

The DCS WWII effort has a nice dogfight mode for just a few planes.

I love DCS WWII, but not at all as much as IL-2 where at least the whole environment looks at least a bit like the 1940-ties (and 1914-18).

Only looking at WWII sims ... if we do not agree ... what other choice do we have ?

IMHO the attention to detail in IL-2 is incredible.

I have no idea if the IL-2 (or DCS) world look anything like MS FS 2020 what PC we would need.

Anyway I too hope for visual and other improvements, but in the mean time I will keep on trying to enjoy what sims I can buy in 2019.

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Sorry, but I play ONLY IL-2 serie....so I complain on what I love.😉

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The map - at least for the post invasion phase, does need to go further south, but I do not see why that should be a terrible problem. Paris could be dealt with either by the Moscow solution in a corner of the map, or just omitted.  I am not sure that there is any reason why the map even has to be rectangular - AFAIK this is just a convention - so why not just cut a corner off if Paris is too hard to include?  

 

I really hope that this one sells well and gives Jason a boost and a bit more freedom of action for the series later on. 

 

PS It will benefit from a few ships to bring it alive for the channel missions, even if just a DD, transport and E-Boat.  We know these are doable from BoK.    

 

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@CCG_Pips.

OK, now I fully understand.

Valid argument.

But since you chose IL-2 and with your simming expertise ... that means a lot.

It also means Jason doesn't have to worry too much I guess 🙂

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Why do we need to omit Paris and London? Wasn't one of the big deals about Bodenplatte the new tech for creating big cities?

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40 minutes ago, SchwarzeHund said:

Having been around the IL2 community for many years- I'm always amazed and saddened by the amount of negativity and complaining that goes on. 


It’s not the Il2 community, this is Just how historical wargamers act.

Edited by WIS-Redcoat
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12 minutes ago, Danziger said:

Why do we need to omit Paris and London? Wasn't one of the big deals about Bodenplatte the new tech for creating big cities?

 

I don't think we need them in order to focus on the essential combat flight simulation aspects of the sim.  I suggest that time and effort is best spent elsewhere.  I appreciate others may have a different opinion though.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

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I was only mentioning it because people were talking about it as if we had the same limitations from BoM period.

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I think that both maps (Bodenplatte and Normandy-WIP) are only separated by a few tens of kilometres. Normandy-WIP is more or less 50 km East of Bodenplatte. AM I correct?

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18 minutes ago, Danziger said:

Why do we need to omit Paris and London? Wasn't one of the big deals about Bodenplatte the new tech for creating big cities?

Well, there's big cities and then there's BIG CITIES. The biggest cities on the Rheinland map aren't nearly  as big as Paris or London. 

The BoBP map really pushed the envelope for a lot of people's computing power due to the amount of buildings and there are some possibly unresolved performance issues there especially online. Optimization can only do so much when rendering huge cities. But we will see what they do.

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As I wrote earlier in this thread, I like Normandy as a next step. I am big fan of the series and I have confidence in the devs. They have done a good job so far -  they have always delivered what they promised in time and the game is continually evolving.

 

BoBP planes are of excellent quality. I do not mind very much of some bugs like "pilots standing in cockpits" etc. I believe the devs sooner or later find the solution and repair it.

Rheinland map is not exactly what we were hoping for (though the cities are excellent).  But well, I can live with that map (especially when some improvements were promised).

AI is not perfect but it is still evolving and I believe this trend is going to continue.

 

So the future should be bright but unfortunatelly it is not so clear because of the one but very important aspect of this sim:

It is evident that the game is now not so fluent as it used to be. May be this is the result of some otherwise good improvements like better a/c visibility, distant buildings, improved AI etc., I do not know.

But it is very serious obstacle for players and obviously the one that is very dificult to repair. The silence from devs about this problem is discouraging...

 

So let's hope that this "no.1 problem" will be adressed soon and with success because IL-2 BOX is the game many of us use daily and we love it and want to use it for many years to come.

Edited by Tapi

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3 minutes ago, Tapi said:

It is evident that the game is now not so fluent as it used to be

 

I didn't notice that...

 

Going back to the Bodenplatte map: even if it is a jewell in terms of flight-simulation performances, the Bodenplatte map is a desert compared to what really was the region in the 1940s. But this is the state-o-f-art in 2019, so it's welcome.

 

Please do not forget my question :

 

I think that both maps (Bodenplatte and Normandy-WIP) are only separated by a few tens of kilometres. Normandy-WIP is more or less 50 km East of Bodenplatte. AM I correct?

Edited by 343KKT_Kintaro

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19 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

Well, there's big cities and then there's BIG CITIES. The biggest cities on the Rheinland map aren't nearly  as big as Paris or London.

 

That´s true. In 1940 Paris had aprox. 2.800.000 and Cologne had aprox. 740.000 inhabitants. That is roughly factor four in inhabitants. Don´t know the difference in area in the 40s though.

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London, Moscow and Berlin, at the time, were bigger than Paris. It's only an assumption of mine, to be honest i'm not sure at 100%.

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4 minutes ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

London, Moscow and Berlin, at the time, were bigger than Paris. It's only an assumption of mine, to be honest i'm not sure at 100%.

You are correct. London roughly 8.000.000 and Berlin and Moscow roughly 4.000.000 inhabitants.

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1 minute ago, sevenless said:

You are correct. London roughly 8.000.000 and Berlin and Moscow roughly 4.000.000 inhabitants.

 

Wait a minute, those numbers include the suburbs! Don't they?

 

May you allow me to ask one question: do those numbers of inhabitants correspond to 1940s counts?

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13 minutes ago, sevenless said:

 

That´s true. In 1940 Paris had aprox. 2.800.000 and Cologne had aprox. 740.000 inhabitants. That is roughly factor four in inhabitants. Don´t know the difference in area in the 40s though.

I suspect population density would be roughly comparable but I don't really know. 

I don't know if we have any cities on the current maps that break the 1,000,000 mark in 1940

Out of curiousity I looked up Moscow's population and in 1939 it was 4.1 million! So even if we aren't limited by BoM's era of limitations, Moscow is still 4 times bigger at least than any city we have flyable in the game. BoM wouldn't have been able to handle Koln or Amsterdam probably, but that doesn't necessarily mean we can scale up to London or Paris.
 

2 minutes ago, sevenless said:

You are correct. London roughly 8.000.000 and Berlin and Moscow roughly 4.000.000 inhabitants.


What's wild is London's population is roughly the same today as it was in 1940!

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32 minutes ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

Normandy-WIP is more or less 50 km East of Bodenplatte.

I don't know about the distance but it's in any case West of Bodenplatte, not East.

 

Have a nice day.

 

:salute:

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4 minutes ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

 

Wait a minute, those numbers include the suburbs! Don't they?

 

May you allow me to ask one question: do those numbers of inhabitants correspond to 1940s counts?

 

Good question. Can´t answer that. I found the figures here:

 

https://www.atlas-europa.de/

 

https://www.atlas-europa.de/t04/bevoelkerung/europ_staedte/pdf/BevStaedte-Tabelle_dt.pdf

 

https://www.atlas-europa.de/t04/bevoelkerung/europ_staedte/map-e_bev_Eu1940_Stadt_dt.htm

 

Unbenannt.jpg

Edited by sevenless

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Just now, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

 

Wait a minute, those numbers include the suburbs! Don't they?

 

May you allow me to ask one question: do those numbers of inhabitants correspond to 1940s counts?

When I looked the numbers up, pre-war and post war numbers mostly aligned with those. I'm pretty sure those are the urban areas, not the outlying suburbs.

Most of your population in the big cities wouldn't have been as suburban in the 40s, European cities then and now tend to have much less suburban sprawl than North American cities. There's just less land to expand into.

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Battle of Normandy is probably a couple of years away from being released. Yet people are already complaining about what they don’t like about it. If I had that type of psychic power I’d put it to better use. 

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14 minutes ago, DragonDaddy said:

Yet people are already complaining about what they don’t like about it.

Of all the great news we've got last couple of days, this is about the only thing that I find a pity.

When the Pacific comes, it comes and we will see in the future what versions of the planes we'll get.

In the mean while we get a very interesting theater again with planes that so many people have been asking for.

 

Have a nice day and keep your planes in the air.

 

:salute:

Edited by FlyingShark

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7 minutes ago, FlyingShark said:

I don't know about the distance but it's in any case West of Bodenplatte, not East.

 

Have a nice day.

 

:salute:

 

BIG FACEPALM!

 

Yes, absolutely:

 

Normandy-WIP is more or less 50 km West of Bodenplatte… Correct?

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, sevenless said:

 

Thank you for that source: Paris appears to be the fifth in population acount after Leningrad!

 

 

3 minutes ago, DragonDaddy said:

Battle of Normandy is probably a couple of years away from being released. Yet people are already complaining about what they don’t like about it. If I had that type of psychic power I’d put it to better use. 

 

Who is complaining? Could you give names or nicknames?

 

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42 minutes ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

 

I didn't notice that...

 

Going back to the Bodenplatte map: even if it is a jewell in terms of flight-simulation performances, the Bodenplatte map is a desert compared to what really was the region in the 1940s. But this is the state-o-f-art in 2019, so it's welcome.

 

Please do not forget my question :

 

I think that both maps (Bodenplatte and Normandy-WIP) are only separated by a few tens of kilometres. Normandy-WIP is more or less 50 km East of Bodenplatte. AM I correct?

 

Actually the east part of the Normandy map is right on top of the west border of the Boddenplatte map.

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2 minutes ago, ww2fighter20 said:

 

Actually the east part of the Normandy map is right on top of the west border of the Boddenplatte map.

 

Yes, you're right! thank you for pointing this out.

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*snaps fingers*

 

River barges! That’s what we need. Drop all those 109s and so forth but we need us some river barges!

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27 minutes ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

 

Yes, you're right! thank you for pointing this out.

Some extra info.

Check and compare https://il2missionplanner.com/#rheinland

with https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/uploads/monthly_2019_11/BON_Map_Announcement_EN.jpg.65ca8d95279495c17bda1f7c3c2e2fd7.jpg

Also google earth https://www.google.com/maps/@50.9902663,3.5347839,13.71z

 

On the Bodenplatte map look west of the Gent.

On the Normandy map look at Deinze (North-East).

On googlemaps you might notice an unique form of river (at Bachte right of Deinze) that's also on the Bodenplatte map.

Edited by ww2fighter20
extra info

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3 minutes ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

 

Yes, you're right! thank you for pointing this out.

 

Which is kind Battle of France-y territory..

 

Ish.

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Battle of France covers Dunkirk, Belgium, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, the Ardennes, Paris, French-Italian boundaries in the Alps...

 

A small portion of all of this is already indcluded in the Bodenplatte map… isn't it? The Ardennes for instance?

 

To ww2fighter20 : thank you, I'll check that.

 

 

18 minutes ago, FlyingShark said:

Of all the great news we've got last couple of days, this is about the only thing that I find a pity.

When the Pacific comes, it comes and we will see in the future what versions of the planes we'll get.

In the mean while we get a very interesting theater again with planes that so many people have been asking for.

 

Have a nice day and keep your planes in the air.

 

:salute:

 

 

Ok, so people are complaining… what people?

Edited by 343KKT_Kintaro

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5 minutes ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

Ok, so people are complaining… what people?

The ones who do so.

 

Have a nice day.

 

:salute:

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1 minute ago, FlyingShark said:

The ones who do so.

 

Have a nice day.

 

:salute:

 

 

You mean yourself for example? the whiner who whines about whiners but who refuses to mention their nicknames?

 

Be serious now, and stop polluting the forums.

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21 hours ago, Jason_Williams said:

Welcome to my world of budgets, deadlines and yes limits of what is possible. Battle of Normandy is the theme of the title and when possible we adhere to that, but when needed I will find other options to offer an entertaining package. Also, note my caveat in my announcement about planes. Further research might make one or two of these impossible. We shall see.

 

Jason

Jason, could you tell us why does the Normandy map include much of the Channel and some England? I mean what is the point of including those? Will the post invasion Normandy exclude those and go further to the east?

 

Not complaining, just an honest question.

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12 hours ago, Jason_Williams said:

Everyone knock off the arguing. Some people aren't too crazy about Normandy, that's fine. As I said in the beginning keep it super civil please.

 

I'll address all these dev issue comments later after my Thanksgiving. Time to take a couple days off. Sales of Normandy are strong by our standards so all is OK and I'll never give up hope that I can make a Pacific product until the day I leave this company. But as of now, it's not possible. Sometimes you set a goal and you think you can will it into existence through pure moxie, enthusiasm and creativity, but then the universe says, hold my beer. Not making the Pacific is small potatoes to other trauma and drama I've had to deal with in my life and probably same goes for all of you too. Let's keep things in perspective and enjoy what we have.  

 

Jason

Here’s how I see things…

I purchased BON because I’m a big fan of Combat Flight  Sims in general and the P51B in particular. I also want to send Jason and company some money so they will stay in business. 
 

I am guessing that the architecture IL2 is built on is getting a bit old and limited in terms of what it can do and how far you can take it.  That may be one reason Pacific Theater is a nonstarter. I would guess Jason wishes he never mentioned it since he has a very good track record of saying what he is going to do and then doing it. Unlike some other combat flight Sim developers that will remain nameless. 

I don’t see a significant difference from one map to the next. I’m concentrating more on shooting down the guy in front of me. I don’t think we will see a significant difference Bodenplatte and BON.  My hot buttons are the planes, flight models, AI, clouds, engine sounds and how well the game runs. 777 has done a very good job with most of those things and I think they will continue to do so. I will also continue to send them my money until I feel they no longer have any more planes I want or someone else like Microsoft gets in the game. 


 

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Nothing wrong with constructive criticism and help flesh out a product to better entail all of the Normandy theater.  Canadians for instance patrolled all the  way to Paris in July of 44 as part of daily patrols in the spit's.  Granted did they fly direct overhead of Paris, no no according to their logs but reached the city outskirts.

  As has been proven elsewhere so much data and activity just around Caen and really hope Tank Crew is a huge part of Il2 version of Normandy.

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29 minutes ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

*snaps fingers*

 

River barges! That’s what we need. Drop all those 109s and so forth but we need us some river barges!

You might mean that jokingly but there should be barges and small boar traffic to make the landscape more realistic.
 

While small boars might be tasty, small Boats would float better. 😉 

Edited by Rjel
Boats not boars
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3 minutes ago, Mac_Messer said:

Jason, could you tell us why does the Normandy map include much of the Channel and some England? I mean what is the point of including those? Will the post invasion Normandy exclude those and go further to the east?

 

unless you want to do air starts or have a fictional island like in 1946, you need southern england so you have bases to take off from and land back on. 

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9 minutes ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

 

 

You mean yourself for example? the whiner who whines about whiners but who refuses to mention their nicknames?

 

Be serious now, and stop polluting the forums.

Relax. 

Edited by Rjel

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5 minutes ago, Mac_Messer said:

Jason, could you tell us why does the Normandy map include much of the Channel and some England? I mean what is the point of including those? Will the post invasion Normandy exclude those and go further to the east?

 

Not complaining, just an honest question.

 

Probably something to do with the fact that the invasion was launched across the channel, and allied aircraft were based in England prior (obviously) and after the invasion, and air spawning and despawning sucks.

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