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361st_Porkie-

is VR better than a 1440 monitor

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not long ago i upgraded my pc to 

i9 900k

RTX 2080Ti

32 DDR4 RAM

 

its my monitor 34UC89G its 1080p, i really love that its 34"@144MHz and if i get 1440p or better it has to be 34". at the price of the monitor i want, i could easily afford the valve index and still save some money. i see good and bad about VR in forums, not to mention i'm really confused as to what VR setup is best.

on my system what can i expect performance wise... high FPS and bad graphics, high FPS, decent graphics with stutters and drops in FPS every so often...?

 

if i'm going VR, it might as well be best.

 

thanks for your feedback.

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Two totally different things.

No one really knows how they will like VR until they try it.

I have been doing VR since Jan 2017 and not used a monitor since.

Most folks that try it stay with it, but there are a few out there that just did not like it.

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I have an ultra wide 34" with 1440, a 4K TV 65", and a Pimax5K+. Out of these three, I prefer the VR headset. I got a Pimax8KX on pre-order.

 

If you go VR, the Index is a very user friendly product. But if you like to fiddle around with the Hardware a lot, and haven't fallen on your head in regards to tech savvy-ness, the Pimax Vision series are the best headsets for both picture quality and immersion. They cost more though. If you want to go VR, you might as well get a Pimax 8K+ with Deluxe Audio (or 8KX if you wait until march) from pimax.com, 2 Valve Basestations 2.0 from Steam store, and 2 Valve Index Controllers from Steam store. That's the best combination money can buy.

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My VR HMD is gathering dust , I prefer playing on my 34 inches monitor @3440x1440. Immersion and aiming  is really great in VR but I prefer sharp graphics in Il2. Someday with high def VR I will switch to VR.

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To answer the question in the title, as far as resolution is concerned, the answer is no, not yet.  As dburne points out correctly though, they are two different things.  The immersion of VR is amazing.  Having the aircraft "surround" you gives a very good feeling of flight.  It tricks the brain to you being there.  For example, I landed a P-38, then threw on the brakes full stop.  I felt pressed forward in my seat.  No monitor will give you this.  On the down side you give up crisp resolution, the biggest problem is seeing and ID'ing aircraft at distance.  This can be a game breaker in mp.  Within the next year I am waiting to see what comes out in HMDs.  From my experience all I can say is be leary of Pimax.  VR comes down to personal preference.  As far as your system, you look good to go.

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Everyone pretty much has it covered, but there is no way I could ever play a flight sim without VR anymore. It isn't quite as sharp, but it's like you're there. Spotting is the only negative imo, and you get used to it. 

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With your setup you can have very good performance and very decent graphics. But it all depends on your preferences.

Best would be if you could try it somewhere  and see for yourself, if the VR limitations are a "no go" for you.

For me and  many others its a no brainer, i trade the "better graphics" for the feeling of actually flying these damn things any day.

And if we talk about "bad  graphics" - it still better looking than sims from 10 years ago.

As a child i only dreamed about the setup i am running now, a self made flight chair, FF Joystick, Pedals, Throttle and f*****g VR! Unbelievable

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First you should know that there is quite a few VR headsets out there, each with their own pros and cons:

Here a summary I made some months ago, you should add the new Pimax8KX:

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/49868-specs-summary-rift-s-index-pimax5k-and-reverb/

 

But you should understand that if a VR headset, like Index for example, has 1440x1600 resolution it means that you have per eye 1440 pixels horizontally and 1600 pixels vertically.

A 1440p monitor means 1440 pixels vertically , but it DOES NOT mean the index is better in resolution.

Why?  Firstly you need to count all pixels (vertically and horizontally per eye) and secondly, and more important, those pixels cover a larger visual area in VR so the pixels per degree of vision are less.

Here you are a proper table for the first reason:

monitorvsVR.png.361551163ed0726e0d7ccbc5a5416bdb.png

 

You will see that the Index is around the 1080p resolution, but covering a bigger FOV area than a monitor you have less pixels per degree of scene.

 

Here some VR vs monitor comparison:

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/52473-vr-index-vs-monitor-fullhd-4k-pictures-compasiron/

 

And here some reviews of Pimax5K+, Reverb and Index:

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/52371-valve-index-vs-pimax5k-which-one-to-pick-through-lens-pictures/

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/53603-valve-index-vs-hp-reverb-through-the-lens-pictures/

 

If I were you I will try to test just VR with a colleague or arcade shop. Just to know how good is for inmersion.

 

If you still want crisper images then go to 1440p monitor or even better 4K monitor (your system can support 4K quite well at 60HZ or 75Hz)

 

If you want crisp VR image and don´t want to spend too much (but low FOV) go to Reverb. Then If you want everything (resolution and FOV) go to Pimax8K-X, but it could be a rocky road at the beginning. Performance is still to be seen with the 8KX.

But in any case a Pimax8KX will give you less spotting ability than a monitor 4K, since the Pimax cover a bigger FOV.

Edited by chiliwili69
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14 hours ago, dburne said:

Two totally different things.

No one really knows how they will like VR until they try it.

I have been doing VR since Jan 2017 and not used a monitor since.

Most folks that try it stay with it, but there are a few out there that just did not like it.

Hey Don. with all your helpful reports on VR, I have a question... Do you fly with Icons On ?

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22 minutes ago, jaydee said:

Hey Don. with all your helpful reports on VR, I have a question... Do you fly with Icons On ?

 

Yes - I have no shame.

:P

 

I fly only in single player, so not a biggy for me to do so. I do however toggle them off at times try and get better at spotting without them.

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Contrary to what has been stated, there's no problem with IDing other aircrafts at range. Just use lefuneste's Mod. Spotting is harder on a 4K monitor than on a 1080p btw (same sized). It's very easy in VR, as long as you don't oversample too much.

 

Online VR players are highly competitive and dangerous. We got them leading TAW scoreboards right now, and in general they are performing very well. 

 

A good pilot is a good pilot, and a bad one will remain bad, VR won't magically change that. Only training can do that.

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10 hours ago, dburne said:

Yes - I have no shame

 

I also only play SP and use icons on in certain moments when I lose the track of the planes.

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7 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

 Spotting is harder on a 4K monitor than on a 1080p btw

Not really true, unless you are running Alternate Visibility. In that mode the distant aircraft appear as giant blobs from what I read, I don’t see that effect in 4K but of course Alternate Vis isn’t realistic.  

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7 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Contrary to what has been stated, there's no problem with IDing other aircrafts at range. Just use lefuneste's Mod. Spotting is harder on a 4K monitor than on a 1080p btw (same sized). It's very easy in VR, as long as you don't oversample too much.

 

Online VR players are highly competitive and dangerous. We got them leading TAW scoreboards right now, and in general they are performing very well. 

 

A good pilot is a good pilot, and a bad one will remain bad, VR won't magically change that. Only training can do that.

Even with lefuneste's mod, I still believe the spotting to be a tad more difficult. Colors, resolution, etc are different. I can definitely spot better on a monitor over VR, but his mod certainly helps.

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54 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Not really true, unless you are running Alternate Visibility. In that mode the distant aircraft appear as giant blobs from what I read, I don’t see that effect in 4K but of course Alternate Vis isn’t realistic.  

You are naturally entitled to your own free opinion. Just know, we ran A/B tests with multiple people.

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1 minute ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

You are naturally entitled to your own free opinion. Just know, we ran A/B tests with multiple people.

I’ve used both 1080p and 4K as well. 
When you say “spotting” if you mean simply seeing other contacts the chief factors involved are size and contrast. Neither of those are different in 4K vs 1080p. If you mean the ability to ID and discern aircraft features, 2160p is obviously superior in that regard. 

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To the OP: If you're worried about resolution, HP Reverb is the most accessible high-res headset right now. If you're looking to spend only a small amount, Rift S is pretty good and likely on sale for $350 pretty easily. For that you get one of the better software ecosystems and decent tracking (but yes, it's Facebook). Index is probably the most high-end mainstream headset and if you have the money to spend I think you'll like it. Pimax has superior potential but it's $$$ and the ecosystem isn't as mature as the Oculus/Index stuff.

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On 11/25/2019 at 9:26 PM, 361st_Porkie- said:

not long ago i upgraded my pc to 

i9 900k

RTX 2080Ti

32 DDR4 RAM

 

its my monitor 34UC89G its 1080p, i really love that its 34"@144MHz and if i get 1440p or better it has to be 34". at the price of the monitor i want, i could easily afford the valve index and still save some money. i see good and bad about VR in forums, not to mention i'm really confused as to what VR setup is best.

on my system what can i expect performance wise... high FPS and bad graphics, high FPS, decent graphics with stutters and drops in FPS every so often...?

 

if i'm going VR, it might as well be best.

 

thanks for your feedback.

 

 

besides usefeul notes posted above, keep in mind, that stuttering and other technical problems are much more evident and can completelly destroy your gamming experience,

see Jason´s topic about it, see below.

just to be clear - I fly VR only.  Both car and fly sims had never attracted me before VR came, but now I am totally trapped

 

 

Edited by wju
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VR - easier to spot

Monitor - easier to ID

 

If you go high resolution, best to go with large diagonal size as well to keep the pixel pitch (size) not too tiny.

 

9 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Not really true, unless you are running Alternate Visibility. In that mode the distant aircraft appear as giant blobs from what I read, I don’t see that effect in 4K but of course Alternate Vis isn’t realistic.  

 

Neither is Expert. Like others have said, you are entitled to your opinion & nothing more.

Edited by [DBS]TH0R
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10 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I’ve used both 1080p and 4K as well. 
When you say “spotting” if you mean simply seeing other contacts the chief factors involved are size and contrast. Neither of those are different in 4K vs 1080p. If you mean the ability to ID and discern aircraft features, 2160p is obviously superior in that regard. 

Spotting is noticing moving objects as a cluster of pixels.

IDing is finding out what type of object you are looking at.

 

We found out that on 1080p resolution spotting is easier. This is because it is easier to notice an artifact against the calm background of the landscape. For example, a flickering pixel is both larger and more pronounced and offset from a calm background. On a 4K monitor of the same size, the object is displayed more steadily, but finer, and blends into the background better, which makes it harder to spot. This is assuming that both screens have the same angular width when looking from your position.

 

I would argue that we have the best spotters in the community and have spent a lot of time to perfect it, but instead of highlighting our extensive efforts in that regard, many would probably misunderstand this as arrogance or argueing from authority. This is not the intention, hence the explaination. We spent a lot of time in looking at what works best. I hope the explaination was sufficient. 🤠👍

Edited by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

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I found that spotting @ 3440x1440 but with large enough screen in my case 34" is good as 1080p with smaller screen size. But having same size screen for example 27" and 4k vs 1080p for sure second option would be better for spotting. Flying together with squad , many times I was able to spott distant contacts faster - before AV and with AV disabled in present times. 

Edited by 1PL-Husar-1Esk
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6 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Spotting is noticing moving objects as a cluster of pixels.

IDing is finding out what type of object you are looking at.

 

We found out that on 1080p resolution spotting is easier. This is because it is easier to notice an artifact against the calm background of the landscape. For example, a flickering pixel is both larger and more pronounced and offset from a calm background. On a 4K monitor of the same size, the object is displayed more steadily, but finer, and blends into the background better, which makes it harder to spot. This is assuming that both screens have the same angular width when looking from your position.

 

I would argue that we have the best spotters in the community and have spent a lot of time to perfect it, but instead of highlighting our extensive efforts in that regard, many would probably misunderstand this as arrogance or argueing from authority. This is not the intention, hence the explaination. We spent a lot of time in looking at what works best. I hope the explaination was sufficient. 🤠👍

I’ve use a 27” 1080p, 28” 4K and 32” 4K screen with this game and consider 4K a vast improvement, in spotting and every other graphic quality. I wouldn’t go back to 1080p.

What are your graphic settings? It’s really odd to recommend lower resolution as “better” in any regard. 

This is what I get for results in spotting. I start to see fighter sized contacts at about 7km from the wide FOV

 

5 hours ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

I found that spotting @ 3440x1440 but with large enough screen in my case 34" is good as 1080p with smaller screen size. But having same size screen for example 27" and 4k vs 1080p for sure second option would be better for spotting. Flying together with squad , many times I was able to spott distant contacts faster - before AV and with AV disabled in present times. 

Generally speaking, higher resolutions make larger screens look better. A 32” 4K screen looks really sharp but the same size screen in 1080p, assuming the same view distance, would look pixeled. 

 

The selection of a display should probably consider the type of game you typically play. Is the screen intended only for this game at this particular stage of its development? Trying to tailor your display to the visibility quirks of this particular game may not be worthwhile. My choice of a screen is influenced by many different games and not just this one. 

 

Besides resolution another important thing to consider in a new display is HDR. Again, not relevant to this game at this stage but in other games looks fantastic and definitely worth considering in a new monitor. The upcoming MSFS 2020 supports this and looks gorgeous. 

Edited by SharpeXB

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I only fly in VR these days, have a Reverb V2 and the resolution is excellent but not quite monitor standards.

And of course FPS is not as on a monitor.

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2 minutes ago, Goblin said:

I only fly in VR these days, have a Reverb V2 and the resolution is excellent but not quite monitor standards.

And of course FPS is not as on a monitor.

 

I would encourage any VR user, to not chase FPS - but to chase smoothness.

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2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I’ve use a 27” 1080p, 28” 4K and 32” 4K screen with this game and consider 4K a vast improvement, in spotting and every other graphic quality. I wouldn’t go back to 1080p.

What are your graphic settings? It’s really odd to recommend lower resolution as “better” in any regard. 

 

Generally speaking, higher resolutions make larger screens look better. A 32” 4K screen looks really sharp but the same size screen in 1080p, assuming the same view distance, would look pixeled.

 

It all depends on what you think is better, and in what situation. Sure, 4K image will no doubt look sharper with less jaggies. However, in terms of spotting due to the larger pixel size on a 24" 1080p monitor vs 32" 4K like the one you are using - 1080 has a clear advantage, by a long shot.

 

 

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

The selection of a display should probably consider the type of game you typically play. Is the screen intended only for this game at this particular stage of its development? Trying to tailor your display to the visibility quirks of this particular game may not be worthwhile. My choice of a screen is influenced by many different games and not just this one. 

 

Besides resolution another important thing to consider in a new display is HDR. Again, not relevant to this game at this stage but in other games looks fantastic and definitely worth considering in a new monitor. The upcoming MSFS 2020 supports this and looks gorgeous. 

 

The statement in bold applies to the HDR as well - completely irrelevant to this title. With that said, users that wish to improve spotting are better off with a 1080p screen than a 4K one. Or getting a second generation VR set.

Edited by [DBS]TH0R

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5 minutes ago, [DBS]TH0R said:

However, in terms of spotting due to the larger pixel size on a 24" 1080p monitor vs 32" 4K like the one you are using - 1080 has a clear advantage, by a long shot.

I’m not convinced of that but if this is your opinion why are you using a 1440p screen instead of 1080p?

If lower resolutions are better would you recommend the OP not to upgrade to 1440p?

Do you suggest tailoring the monitor to pixel hunting as opposed to overall graphic quality?

For all we know (and I’m not certain how it even works now) the visibility system in this game could change so why tailor your hardware to this factor specifically?

13 minutes ago, [DBS]TH0R said:

The statement in bold applies to the HDR as well - completely irrelevant to this title.

Well it depends on which games the OP wants to run. Now or in the future. For all we know IL-2 might add HDR support and there are many games which have it. It’s a factor to consider in a new monitor. 

On 11/25/2019 at 1:26 PM, 361st_Porkie- said:

thanks for your feedback.

Do you want to run other games and sims or just IL-2?

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Tests ran using

32" 4K: 1080p, 4K;

34" UWQHD: 1440p, 1080p;

65" LG C8: 4K, 1080p, HDR1/0;

VR: Index 1440x1600: SS=100%, SS=140%;

VR: Pimax5K+ 2560x1440: SS=100%, SS=140%;

 

Anyway, good luck. The game does look better on 4K, that is clear. We have different priorities, see, you want eye candy, others want a smooth framerate, others want to spot very well, others like a high situational awareness, some VR users like best resolution (Reverb), others like FOV (Pimax), others like plug'n'play ease-of-use (Index). That's the way it is.

Edited by SCG_Fenris_Wolf
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3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

 

 

Besides resolution another important thing to consider in a new display is HDR. Again, not relevant to this game at this stage but in other games looks fantastic and definitely worth considering in a new monitor. The upcoming MSFS 2020 supports this and looks gorgeous. 

Can I ask where you saw MSFS 2020 in HDR , I'm assuming at 4K. I have Sony 65 " 4K with HDR with highest nits value. Would like to see it myself.

 

BTW pixel arrangements is what make image look sharp, good 4k panel looks better more sharp and hi def versu not that good tech and 8k.

 

 

Edited by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

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5 minutes ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

We have different priorities, see, you want eye candy, others want a smooth framerate, others want to spot very well

Well I agree with you there. 
IMO my priorities are:

1. Frame rate

2. Graphic Settings

3. Resolution. 
So I would actually consider resolution the least important of all those. If you can’t keep a solid high fps or have to sacrifice graphic settings I actually don’t think 4K is worthwhile. I’d only recommend it if #1 and #2 aren’t comprised. 
The OP is running a 2080Ti, That GPU will run any monitor fine. 

14 minutes ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

Can I ask where you saw MSFS 2020 in HDR , I'm assuming at 4K. I have Sony 65 " 4K with HDR with highest nits value. Would like to see it myself.

Right here

https://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/microsoft-flight-simulator

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2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I’m not convinced of that but if this is your opinion why are you using a 1440p screen instead of 1080p?

If lower resolutions are better would you recommend the OP not to upgrade to 1440p?

Do you suggest tailoring the monitor to pixel hunting as opposed to overall graphic quality?

For all we know (and I’m not certain how it even works now) the visibility system in this game could change so why tailor your hardware to this factor specifically?

Well it depends on which games the OP wants to run. Now or in the future. For all we know IL-2 might add HDR support and there are many games which have it. It’s a factor to consider in a new monitor. 

Do you want to run other games and sims or just IL-2?

 

Because it is the middle ground between 1080p and 4K and most games can be run with highest details at that resolution (not requiring 2080Ti).

Depends on the OP and what he is playing.

Not tailoring - rather staying on 1080p if the primary gaming is this flight sim.

 

Individual answer to the bolded question covers all points above.

 

Edited by [DBS]TH0R

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On 11/25/2019 at 3:28 PM, dburne said:

Two totally different things.

No one really knows how they will like VR until they try it.

I have been doing VR since Jan 2017 and not used a monitor since.

Most folks that try it stay with it, but there are a few out there that just did not like it.

 

I agree. It's impossible to know how you will react. The resolution in VR is not as good as on a monitor but the sense of immersion is immeasurably more. So, this becomes very subjective. 

 

I lost all interest in playing flight / racing sims on flat screens after I went VR. Same is true for lots of people. 

 

A bonus is with VR you'll be able to play a ton of VR games and experiences. It's like owning a totally different platform. I have my XBox, PC, MAME and VR platforms. It's nice to have choices. 

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So if you have a 1440 monitor, will it affect VR more than a regular 1080p monitor since it mirrors the image?

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18 minutes ago, Fern said:

So if you have a 1440 monitor, will it affect VR more than a regular 1080p monitor since it mirrors the image?

 

No. 

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So I'm curious what the effective pixels per degree are for typical 1080p and 4K monitors. I personally found that a 1600*1200 24" monitor was sufficient visual acuity for me back in the original Il-2, and don't really think that has changed much, but with VR headsets being better assessed in Pixels Per Degree, rather than resolution and diagonal, it would be interesting to know what the direct comparison metrics are. 

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Two completely different things.

 

And personally....no Monitor ever made can hold a candle to the "wow" factor of feeling completely immersed in a dogfight in VR.  It's not even a comparison for me.

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