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Fokkxor

Why not more COOP Servers/Missions?

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1 minute ago, Count_de_Money said:

 

ok, let me try it again. Teamspeak and Discord both are missing one feature, which Hyperlobby. Does that make it clearer?

 

What’s the missing feature?

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I think it's very easy to understand BSR. If there are enough folk who want coops it shouldn't matter what software is used to organize one. There is software available now to organize one. There just isn't the players to organize one. It doesnt matter if you get a HL there still wont be the players. Not having the preferred software is a poor excuse. If the players are there build it with what's available and they will come. 

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4 minutes ago, Rolling_Thunder said:

I think it's very easy to understand BSR. If there are enough folk who want coops it shouldn't matter what software is used to organize one. There is software available now to organize one. There just isn't the players to organize one. It doesnt matter if you get a HL there still wont be the players. Not having the preferred software is a poor excuse. If the players are there build it with what's available and they will come. 

 

Exactly this.

 

Teamspeak is available.  Hardly anyone uses it for coops because hardly anyone wants to play coops.

Edited by BraveSirRobin

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50 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

What’s the missing feature?

 

ok, let me paint you a picture so it's as clear as glass.

 

I open Il2 BoS. And inside IL2 there's a Hyperlobby with all people chatting and smiling at each other. That's the feature that I'm after.

 

 

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40 minutes ago, Count_de_Money said:

 

ok, let me paint you a picture so it's as clear as glass.

 

I open Il2 BoS. And inside IL2 there's a Hyperlobby with all people chatting and smiling at each other. That's the feature that I'm after.

 

 

 

As I thought, there are no missing features.

 

Let me paint a picture for you.  Go to Teamspeak and set up a Coop Teamspeak server with all 5 of the people who still play coops smiling and chatting with each other.  The only feature you’re currently missing is the people.

Edited by BraveSirRobin

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HL wasn't built in to il2 '46 but it worked, it got folk organized and is touted as the holy grail. But It was a third party app like the software available now. All it takes is some dedication/passion and the will to create, using whats available, to achieve what you want.

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9 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

Go to Teamspeak and set up a Coop Teamspeak server with all 5 of the people who still play coops smiling and chatting with each other. 

Wrong, its much more than 5 people, on my coop events alone I have 15 regular players. Then we add Nocke´s Coconut coop with at least as much regulars as my events, Netscape´s coops and Sketch´s community coop events.

With the help of Discord and the Forums I can announce flyouts easely in advance and in a convenient way.

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14 minutes ago, Leon_Portier said:

Wrong, its much more than 5 people, on my coop events alone I have 15 regular players.

 

The sarcasm in my post seemed pretty obvious.  

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3 hours ago, Leon_Portier said:

That sounds pretty cool, I´d add with my trombone skills.

If anyone needs a trombone i might pm you lol

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37 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

As I thought, there are no missing features.

 

 

ok, I can see how you're really trying to imagine my pictures but somehow everything in your picture is either TS or Discord.

 

Let me simplify it a bit to get that elusive frame of reference.

 

Imagine you buy a house. It has everything, but the phone. Your cellphone doesn't work in the house either.  However, there's a phone outside of your house in a pancake place called TeamSpeak. So, to make a phone call you have to leave the house, enter the pancake place, and dial a number there...

 

If that's a bit above your imagination level, here's a simpler example.  Imagine you buy a house. But there's no table in it. However, there's a nice picnic table outside and that's the only place where you can eat at. Outside. Next to your house.

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2 minutes ago, Count_de_Money said:

 

ok, I can see how you're really trying to imagine my pictures but somehow everything in your picture is either TS or Discord.

 

 

 

Everything in my “picture” is Teamspeak or Discord because that’s all you need.  They have all the features of the original Hyperlobby.  So set up a Coop Hyperlobby Teamspeak server and start cooping.  Because if there is one thing that Hyperlobby proved, it’s that you don’t need a new house.  You just need a 3rd party app that enables people to communicate with each other.

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2 hours ago, Rolling_Thunder said:

I think it's very easy to understand BSR. If there are enough folk who want coops it shouldn't matter what software is used to organize one. There is software available now to organize one. There just isn't the players to organize one. It doesnt matter if you get a HL there still wont be the players. Not having the preferred software is a poor excuse. If the players are there build it with what's available and they will come. 

 

That's a false conclusion. You leave out one pretty large assumption in your analysis that people have lots of online friends they can call at any time and they all happen to be free at that moment to converge in the same spot (TS/Dc/etc). Even with the discord communities it's difficult as people that show 'online' most of them are either at work on their mobiles and simply can't join your game. So, even the 'crutch' isn' helping during those moments. What it comes down to is planning, i.e. posting a message on some board (in discord or otherwise) that we'll be meeting then and there, etc etc... The idea of HyperLobby is that you meet with folks that are on-line in IL2 right that moment, obviously it doesn't mean that all of them are ready to join, but the chance is higher that you will end up flying with some one at that very moment.

2 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

 

Everything in my “picture” is Teamspeak or Discord because that’s all you need.  They have all the features of the original Hyperlobby.  So set up a Coop Hyperlobby Teamspeak server and start cooping.  Because if there is one thing that Hyperlobby proved, it’s that you don’t need a new house.  You just need a 3rd party app that enables people to communicate with each other.

 

nah, that's not all you need. You need hyperlobby, my friend.

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3 minutes ago, Count_de_Money said:

 

nah, that's not all you need. You need hyperlobby, my friend.

 

 

 I’m not your friend and you can do everything in Teamspeak that you could do in Hyperlobby.. 

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Just now, BraveSirRobin said:

 

 

 I’m not your friend and you can do everything in Teamspeak that you could do in Hyperlobby.. 

 

ok, pal, no you can't. One thing that TeamsPeak doesn't have is the thing we want, which is Hyperlobby.

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2 minutes ago, Count_de_Money said:

 

ok, pal, no you can't. One thing that TeamsPeak doesn't have is the thing we want, which is Hyperlobby.

 

Yes, you absolutely can.  There isn’t a single Hyperlobby feature that can’t be duplicated in Teamspeak.  The only feature you’re missing is people who want coops.

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1 minute ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

Yes, you absolutely can.  There isn’t a single Hyperlobby feature that can’t be duplicated in Teamspeak.  The only feature you’re missing is people who want coops.

 

Hyperlobby is one thing that we want that TeamSpeak does have not.

 

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The issue is with is with the setup. IL-2 BoX/GB co-op section isn't setup correctly.

Co-ops rooms have to be interggrated with a chat functionality for that format to work with a measure of success. You need a lobby (Hyperlobby) where people gather around then hop into missions before it start. Without that funcuationaly, people will just join missions that is already in progress (i.e. Dogfight server). This is because we need a [place to congregate - "shoot the shit" so to speak :popcorm:

 

Look at why HL was just a big hit back in the day. For co-ops to work, your have be there waiting in the slot before the mission starts. So you could shut the shit and wait for a "host" to take a slot. Or take a slot and wait for a host.

 

image.jpeg.34122ca1e9039afff7de4f5b0dd40bf1.jpeg

 

With out this functionality - the co-op side will ways be a ghost town with tumble weeds blowing in the wind

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1 minute ago, JG7_X-Man said:

The issue is with is with the setup. IL-2 BoX/GB co-op section isn't setup correctly.

Co-ops rooms have to be interggrated with a chat functionality for that format to work with a measure of success. You need a lobby (Hyperlobby) where people gather around then hop into missions before it start. Without that funcuationaly, people will just join missions that is already in progress (i.e. Dogfight server). This is because we need a [place to congregate - "shoot the shit" so to speak :popcorm:

 

Look at why HL was just a big hit back in the day. For co-ops to work, your have be there waiting in the slot before the mission starts. So you could shut the shit and wait for a "host" to take a slot. Or take a slot and wait for a host.

 

image.jpeg.34122ca1e9039afff7de4f5b0dd40bf1.jpeg

 

With out this functionality - the co-op side will ways be a ghost town with tumble weeds blowing in the wind

 

Teamspeak has an integrated chat feature.  Problem solved.

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2 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

Teamspeak has an integrated chat feature.  Problem solved.

 

Yes it does - but Teamspeak doesn't have a the game hosting function. Which is the most important part - they have to be integrated.

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Just now, JG7_X-Man said:

 

Yes it does - but Teamspeak doesn't have a the game hosting function. Which is the most important part - they have to be integrated.

 

Alt-Tab

 

Problem solved.

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6 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

Alt-Tab

 

Problem solved.

 

Well - I would say if the problem was solved - why are we having this conversation? :nea:

Edited by JG7_X-Man

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I'd say the problem with team speak and discord is that there are MANY teamspeak and discord servers with a few people on each. The advantage of hyper lobby is that there is (was...) only one where all come together. If you can convincingly explain how to make ONE teamspeak or discord server the one where everybody meets - than yes, you don't  need a hyperlobby

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3 minutes ago, No.322_Nocke said:

I'd say the problem with team speak and discord is that there are MANY teamspeak and discord servers with a few people on each. The advantage of hyper lobby is that there is (was...) only one where all come together. If you can convincingly explain how to make ONE teamspeak or discord server the one where everybody meets - than yes, you don't  need a hyperlobby

 

Set up a dedication GB Coop Teamspeak server.  Promote it in the forum.  How do you think everyone found Hyperlobby?

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Oh my lord, don't feed the trolls.  Suffice to say if it were up to some people we'd still be flying on the old FW190 flight model.  No matter how helpful you may think your idea is, you won't convince everyone.

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 moving on :coffee:

Edited by JG7_X-Man

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7 minutes ago, JG7_X-Man said:

 

That is just 1 mission.

 

 

What at are you talking about?   A Teamspeak server can have a separate thread for every coop server.   

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13 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

Set up a dedication GB Coop Teamspeak server.  Promote it in the forum.  How do you think everyone found Hyperlobby?

The existing dedicated  GB teamspeak server is generally  empty. Now add a dedicated  GB Coop teamspeak server, together then they will be - half empty each???

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3 minutes ago, No.322_Nocke said:

The existing dedicated  GB teamspeak server is generally  empty. Now add a dedicated  GB Coop teamspeak server, together then they will be - half empty each???

 

No, they’ll probably both be empty.  But at least the coop crowd won’t have the “no lobby” excuse for why no one is playing coops.

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Ok this kinda took off, i can not reply to everyone. I was not expecting so many posts, but to me it illustrates the problem coop has in this game, the fact that you have to meet up to play.

When i or anyone else that is not in the forums often or does not have a lot of IL2 BOS friends, clicks on that multiplayer button, all they see is dogfight servers. No coop. And that is it, 8 out of 10 people do not want to meet up at a certain day and certain time just to play a game that is not "air quake", they just go play something else and are lost to the IL2 multiplayer at that moment at least for some time.

 

As long as coop missions are not sufficiently large so they can run 24/7 on a server(with periodic restarts) and offer the same "pick up" style play dogfight servers offer, they will never be any popular, in order for something to be popular it needs to be available first and foremost, and coop is not at all available to the broad mass of players that look into the multiplayer.

 

Why are dogfight servers filled? They are available, i do not need to meet up at certain conditions, i dont need 3rd party software, be it generators or voice coms, you need nothing but klick join. As long as coop can not offer the same, it will never take off in this game.

You can not say coop is not popular in this game if is is almost never on offer, of course it is not popular when the system works like that.

 

 

7 hours ago, Absolut said:

There exist no coop in dcs as far as i know. could you explain what coop means for you. i would love a coop function in dcs. i read in their forum that they plan or work on something like a dynamic campain thing wich will make coop possible by download or upload a generated mission. but for now theres only PvE or PvP or PvEcombined with PvP . The coop function here works as it should. But it lacks of missiondesigners. Old IL2 got that onlinewar from a communtiybuildup server that creates a mission for you from a dynamic map you could download and host. But just only for that mission. Is the mission completed it got direct impact on that map and frontline. so you could download and host a new one for about 10 players or so. But the missiongenerator was private and not from 1c. You need to make a script and host a server outside of il2 to generate a map and missions for downloading. We need a lobby here to do the same. but the lobby doesnt exist yet. Practicaly you need a community lobby like Hyperlobby that makes this things possible. Il2 never got this also not the old one. it was hosted by private people with a lot of entusiasm. 

 

 

 

The therm PvE is just MMO speak, coop(erative) can be anything that has players on one side and AI on the other. The moment you have players on both sides it become PvP.

If the mission is 30 minutes long or 5 hours(with randoms joining in and leaving) does not make a difference. A server should be able to run the mission 24/7(with periodic restarts) so people can join in at any time, take a plane and start to participate, solo or with friends. No matter if the mission just started or is almost finished.

That is called availability.

 

Everything else will never work out to be popular. If Frank host a mission monday at 5 o clock, what does that do to 99% of the players? Nothing! They never know about it in the first place.

 

Edited by Fokkxor

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4 hours ago, Leon_Portier said:

Oh by the way:

 

Right here. The lack of HL is not stopping Leon. Follow his example. Build your community and host. Advertise in

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/forum/93-esports-and-events/

Join a squadron/squad/clan or start your own. 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/forum/17-virtual-squadrons/

All the tools are available. 

The FW wasn't changed because folk whined about it. It changed because folk showed the devs it needed changing. Show the devs the need for a HL by creating the community within the community like leon is.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, No.322_Nocke said:

I'd say the problem with team speak and discord is that there are MANY teamspeak and discord servers with a few people on each. The advantage of hyper lobby is that there is (was...) only one where all come together. If you can convincingly explain how to make ONE teamspeak or discord server the one where everybody meets - than yes, you don't  need a hyperlobby

 

Can't wait for another HL type app...this will make a huge difference in the quality of experience. I moss the Hyperlobby days...although to be fair a lot of people left during that time...nothing is going to bring them all back like it was in 02, 03, 04...

 

For me, a lobby plus PTO will get me back online, and maybe building and hosting again.

Right now hosting is clunky...I won't bother with it.

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I personally would like to do more coop, however i have one issue.  The mission editor.  I love making missions in various games.  I used to do a lot of mission making for arma 2 way back when i was small and just getting into pc gaming before dayz was a thing, then i found DCS world and made tons of missions in that game.  Those editors are very easy to work with and very powerful so you can do a lot with them.  The il2 mission editor however is very powerful and allows for a lot of stuff, but it is super complicated to get basic things done.  DCS world you can make a mission by simply placing aircraft at an airfield and and use a drop down menu to assign a parking spot.  Click in some enemies and give them a way-point with little to no effort and you have a basic mission. 

 

Il2 on the other hand has a ton of other stuff that i have tried to get into, but it just feels like a chore to do.  Even making a simple mission where your plane starts on the runway and takes off is complicated and while it is powerful and you can do a ton with it, the issue is that the most basic things require several steps to get working. There are tutorial videos out there, however there aren't a big variety of them so when you get stuck you cannot just do a quick google search to get an answer like you can with very well known and heavily used ones such as the system used in arma or dcs.  

 

One of the big things about coop is making missions and having interesting things happen and creating and that is often times as fun as flying the mission when you have a userfriendly mission maker.  This game does not which leaves you with only a few choices.  Learn the mission editor over the corse of a week before you can even get the thing to work, use PWCG which is ok, but i find that i cannot customize the mission to my liking and the variety just isn't there compared to custom missions, or download other people's missions which there are only so many of.

 

One thing i see that is needed for a healthy coop area to be is a good intuitive mission editor that allows people to get the basics down quickly, but leave enough tools so that they can do some truly advanced things with mastery.  When you have that you have coop.  I mean in DCS usually someone makes a mission that they think would be fun to fly, get their friends and fly the mission.  They also can create squadrons that fly missions with each other on the weekends which usually includes someone with a talent for creating missions who creates a new one every week.  If the mission maker is difficult to learn and only a handful of people can use it, you end up crippling peoples ability to do that so only a select few do that with the rest giving it a shot then getting frustrated when they cannot get it to work.  When that happens you lower the amount of people who can create content for coop and when there is no content there are no servers.

 

Anyway i think the ways COOP can be revitalized would be to either A add a mode where you and your buddy can fly in the career mode.  B put time into creating more and better tutorials for the current mission editor while also making it visible via a button in the main menu so that people know that it exists similar to arma, dcs, and other games.  or C. create an easier to use mission creation software which i do not think will happen or could be done considering the engine

 

edit:  one last comment to point out looking at those PVE servers in say dcs world rember eagle dynamics did not make that mission, the community did with the editor and they as a community created that server.  there are arma pve content as well is mostly player made and i do not think this game would be any different.  Remember coconuts server which included ai and some truely amaizing mission design?  That was the power of a good mission and that is something that can be made in coop as well, but only if someone makes the mission.

Edited by zdog0331
one last thought

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11 hours ago, AtomicP said:

Do either of you use mods? I had a similar problem and it turned out that a radio mod (to have English voices) caused an issue. No idea what, but removing the mod make things work as expected.

Thanks for the suggestion. We don't.

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2 hours ago, zdog0331 said:

I personally would like to do more coop, however i have one issue.  The mission editor.  I love making missions in various games.  I used to do a lot of mission making for arma 2 way back when i was small and just getting into pc gaming before dayz was a thing, then i found DCS world and made tons of missions in that game.  Those editors are very easy to work with and very powerful so you can do a lot with them.  The il2 mission editor however is very powerful and allows for a lot of stuff, but it is super complicated to get basic things done.  DCS world you can make a mission by simply placing aircraft at an airfield and and use a drop down menu to assign a parking spot.  Click in some enemies and give them a way-point with little to no effort and you have a basic mission. 

 

Il2 on the other hand has a ton of other stuff that i have tried to get into, but it just feels like a chore to do.  Even making a simple mission where your plane starts on the runway and takes off is complicated and while it is powerful and you can do a ton with it, the issue is that the most basic things require several steps to get working. There are tutorial videos out there, however there aren't a big variety of them so when you get stuck you cannot just do a quick google search to get an answer like you can with very well known and heavily used ones such as the system used in arma or dcs.  

 

........

 

edit:  one last comment to point out looking at those PVE servers in say dcs world rember eagle dynamics did not make that mission, the community did with the editor and they as a community created that server.  there are arma pve content as well is mostly player made and i do not think this game would be any different.  Remember coconuts server which included ai and some truely amaizing mission design?  That was the power of a good mission and that is something that can be made in coop as well, but only if someone makes the mission.

 

 


That is interesting, i know the BI editor, i toy around with it in operation flashpoint, arma and arma2, so i know its easy to use and can do a lot of things.
I never try the IL2 bos editor, what you say makes sense, if the editor is a big hurdle for people to make large missions, they probably wont make any.

Its a sad thing, you kinda have a great game and sim with IL2 bos, but this editor thing works like a bottleneck that stops the community from taking the game to the "next level" like communities have done with BI editor or DCS editor.
There is great sim but "only" average single player and limited multiplayer offering. There is so much more potential in this sim.

 

EDIT: i copy this from my steam answer, but why is my text with blue background? Dont know how to remove it.

Edited by Fokkxor

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Making coops work should not be a goal in itself. For me it’s about flying missions together in a flight with a single objective -adhoc/on demand. I usually fly together with friends but that’s only once or twice a week. On any other day I don’t feel inclined to hop onto a Dogfight server on my own as just don’t like the experience.

 

Reading through the posts I see a couple of things that need to be addressed:

 

1) Matchmaking

-Teamspeak or Discord provide the basics: the ability to communicate.

-Hyperlobby helps in negotiations, it adds the possibility to propose a mission/how many slots etc and let other players show their interest without the need for 1:1 communication

-A true matchmaking app would reverse this process: A player states preferences (map/ planetype) and the matchmaking algorithm will put those players together and start a mission. If this is done right it could potentially be more popular than current Dogfight mp.

 

2) Hosting

-Although you can host a coop from your own PC the network settings required is still a hurdle for most players.

-In order for a matchmaking algorithm to work you need multiple dedicated servers, that can scale automatically. Not easy to setup/maintain/pay for

 

3) Mission making

-Yes, it’s not easy. There are mission generators now available though, but to have a truly personalized mission this remains a hurdle.

-Not enough coop missions available: This is more a supply/demand thing and could be easily solved with current mission builders & generators we already have. 
 

I have spoken. 😉

 

Edited by SYN_Vander

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11 hours ago, Count_de_Money said:

 

Teamspeak and Discord are the 2 features we don't want in my Il2 BoS Hyperlobby. We want a hyperlobby, I think that's very easy to understand, except you're somehow making it very difficult.

Call Jiri for that job, you are wrong here. Hyperlobby is not 1c content

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i agree that the BoX missioneditor can be a problem too.

in vintage Il2 i build hundreds of coop missions , 12 missions for an online campaign (VOW) in an afternoon was easy made for me.

The new editor is a little bit more complicated i would say.......

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7 hours ago, Fokkxor said:

That is called availability.

 

Actually what you have described is a dogfight server with a.i.

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