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ME-BFMasserME262

Fighting Ratas in a 109 F-2

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What the title says.

Im playing 10 days of Autumn and its giving me a headache.

I LOVE this SC so far, more than Fortress on the Volga. Just finished mission 7.

My problem is, Ratas, Ratas everywhere.

 

In said mission, I shot down 2 Migs, easy, piece of cake. Shot down a Rata... by pure luck, he was distracted and stalled trying to attack one 109, and I actually got a few lucky shots on him that made his engine stop, but I almost even miss.

 

But when attacking them and they attacking me, I mean in a dogfight and no in a lucky situation, no matter what I do:

a) He manage to reach my 6 and land some shots on my plane

    i) I die

    or 

    ii) I RTB with my plane almost dead

 

OR

 

b) I run at full engine power straight to my base as soon as I spot a Rata (if its an entire formation of them... oh man), scared like a little puppy.

 

I made a post one year ago or something, about the fact I was unable to shot down anything Russian except La5's, at novice AI difficulty.

Now I can shot down any AI (hopefully somedaycan do MP as well) even "Ace" AI, except Ratas (except some rare situations where I got lucky). So I guess its just a "keep progressing" thing, but those little bastards breaking at the exact moment when I pull up the trigger and make me over shot, makes me feel infuriated.

 

So how to fight (and destroy) them?

 

Thanks in regards

 

 

Edit:

Reading the mission 8. "diary":

"[...] Permanent low clouds limited the use of vertical maneuvers and left us no other choice but to keep relying on turns at low altitudes, where the outdated but agile 'rats' had some advantage over our Messerschmitts [...]"

Idk if it's an actual real diary, or if Black Six (creator of this SC) wrote it by himself, but that's exactly the frustration I feel, lol.

Edited by ME-BFMasserME262
corrected my bad English grammar
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Pull them up above the clouds.  Though the rata climbs well down low, so you'll have a while before you can really apply your advantage.

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4 hours ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

Reading the mission 8. "diary":

"[...] Permanent low clouds limited the use of vertical maneuvers and left us no other choice but to keep relying on turns at low altitudes, where the outdated but agile 'rats' had some advantage over our Messerschmitts [...]"

Idk if it's an actual real diary, or if Black Six (creator of this SC) wrote it by himself, but that's exactly the frustration I feel, lol.

I can’t remember where I read this but I believe that these aircraft like I-16 and I-153 (if they had experienced pilots, which was rare  in 1941) were a real problem for the German fighters in such situations where it was impossible to take advantage of the Bf 109 in a vertical maneuver. I tried to show this in the campaign, you have to find a solution yourself))

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My first experience with this game was, "oh, i'll practice on these spanish war things, they look easy." They aren't, you aren't alone.

Remember you're much faster!

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One of the books I've read where this confrontation is mentioned is 'Aces of the Reich' by Mike Spick. It says that the I16's were so maneuverable that when you got behind one, if they spotted you they'd flip round so quickly they came straight for you in a kind of 'Gunfight at the OK Corral' situation and given the much heavier weight of fire the later I16 versions had over the 109F's.....that was not a good place to be for the 109.

 

Even if it's too cloudy for 'boom and zoom' you always have the option to climb away from them in a 109, although that won't be much use when trying to complete the mission.

 

Make sure there are none on your tail then build your speed up and use wide broad turns so you don't bleed speed. Don't get involved in twisty turny stuff with them.

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Use the clouds for cover when fighting them.

Also adjust your trim +1 nose up

Stay with close range of your flight, don't get isolated in a fight.

Call out for your wing man to cover you.

 

It's intense but as is trying to take out a flight of Pe's before they hit your airfield.  My 109 ended up Swiss cheese but I managed not to get my engine hit.

 

Six Days is a lot of fun and it is also great for bench marking. A big thanks to BlackSix who also continues to improve it.👍

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I always feel the need to point out one thing regarding the I-16:

 

You need to be aware, that the Rata has THE SINGLE BEST power-to-weight ratio of any non-BoBP plane in the sim. It is incredibly powerful. 

 

This means that unless you are flying at near top speed, there is a good chance that the Rata will be able to catch you. It retains speed better in a turn, it accelerates faster and it climbs quite well too. And as you correctly state, once you are in the sights its 4 ShKAS pumping out 120 rounds per second will ensure, that at least a couple of those bullets hits something vital. 

 

Only advise I can give is: Stay fast at all cost and try to deny the Rata a shot at you. 

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2 hours ago, Finkeren said:

I always feel the need to point out one thing regarding the I-16:

 

You need to be aware, that the Rata has THE SINGLE BEST power-to-weight ratio of any non-BoBP plane in the sim. It is incredibly powerful. 

 

This means that unless you are flying at near top speed, there is a good chance that the Rata will be able to catch you. It retains speed better in a turn, it accelerates faster and it climbs quite well too. And as you correctly state, once you are in the sights its 4 ShKAS pumping out 120 rounds per second will ensure, that at least a couple of those bullets hits something vital. 

 

Only advise I can give is: Stay fast at all cost and try to deny the Rata a shot at you. 

And now here I come to say the complete Opposite. The I-16 is not a good close in Dogfighter. Especially once it is equipped with the Cannons it can be thrown off with a good combination of Low Speed Rolling Scissors and hard, high Power Slat Turns.

Between 300 and 400km/h the I-16 is better than the 109. Between 300 and 250 it's an even fight, below 250 the I16 is an absolute mess.

 

So if you find yourself with an I-16 hard on your Six and in Gun Range, give her full Aileron and as much Pull as she will allow and drop that Speed.

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Keep in mind that I-16 we have in the sim is something completely different from those spanish Ratas (which were of Type 5, 6 and 10 with Shvetsov M25 providing about 720 HP) . Ours is I-16 type 24 (or type 28 if they sport ShVAKs) - and the story here is somewhat similar to what happened to Bf 109 four or five years later - lack of availability of sufficient numbers of other more modern fighters forced their users to compensate and equip the design with an absurdly powerful engine. I-16 type 24 (Shvetsov M63 with 1100 HP!) consequently has one of the best power to weight ratios, which makes it a deadly medium speed dogfighter (with some problems in low-ish speed department due to nasty snap-stall and lack of slats).

Edited by CrazyDuck

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I think that when the AI flies the I-16s you don't see the nasty snap stall behaviour as frequently as when fighting real pilots, because the AI basically keeps the plane coordinated at all times. When flying the I-16 in a close-quarters knife fight I've been killed more often by an extreme low alt snap stall than enemy fighters, and if it doesnt kill me it often prevents me from gaining on an enemy fighter.

But against real pilots the real charm of the I-16 is the climb rate. 109 pilots will often just try and climb away from you, used to facing other soviet fighters like the MiG and Yak that have poor climb rates. The I-16 will outclimb a 109E and stay with a 109F for quite a distance, often long enough to get some rounds into them. 

Also great fun - fighting FW-190s. If they lose significant amounts of speed from maneuvering, they lose all their advantages. The I-16 rolls just as fast, and accelerates and climbs faster, so once you are on their tail there's no getting away except to run in a straight line, and if they're already slow and your close...
 

1 hour ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

And now here I come to say the complete Opposite. The I-16 is not a good close in Dogfighter. Especially once it is equipped with the Cannons it can be thrown off with a good combination of Low Speed Rolling Scissors and hard, high Power Slat Turns.

Between 300 and 400km/h the I-16 is better than the 109. Between 300 and 250 it's an even fight, below 250 the I16 is an absolute mess.

 

So if you find yourself with an I-16 hard on your Six and in Gun Range, give her full Aileron and as much Pull as she will allow and drop that Speed.

Agreed, the I-16 is best at medium speeds, at low speeds its too unstable, and the 109s will eat you for lunch once you drop a wing once or twice when trying to follow them. 

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If you have the distance - and can avoid the I-16 from getting a firing angle on you - a gentle spiraling climb that still maintains or preferably gains speed until you are above the I-16s useful altitude is the 109's best friend.  Drag them higher and higher until they run out of energy and have weak manifold pressure. They will have to dive away or struggle to keep speed.  Don't be afraid to expand the radius of the circle until they are barely visible.  As long as they are following, can't keep up and you can still see them, or know where they are, then expanding the size of the 'boxing ring' isn't going to do anything but help you. 

 

If you go into vertical maneuvers starting from a lower altitude (boom and zoom at steep up/down angles) watch out for them going into a shallow upward spiral.  They are trying to meet you at the top of your zoom climb where your energy is the least. They will dodge as many times as needed until they get to equal or higher altitude, equal energy, and close enough to shoot you.

 

If they are below thick clouds, drag them above or help friendlies that are dragging them around.  

Edited by Mobile_BBQ

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2 hours ago, gimpy117 said:

easy:

 

don't turn with an I-16.

 

you can always just run away 

Tell this to the AI.

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2 hours ago, gimpy117 said:

easy:

 

don't turn with an I-16.

 

you can always just run away 

 

I have always found neither of these pieces of advice not to work with the AI I-16s. In RL the Soviet pilots were usually tied to defensive CAPs and not allowed to leaver their area. It would be possible to do a diving attack; if you miss you can dive away or use your speed to climb again. The Soviet pilots rarely followed since they were afraid of being disciplined for not following orders and most of them could barely fly anyway, at least in 1941.

 

In the game, they  tend to avoid you fast diving attacks easily as the AI, even on novice level, has much good SA. They can and will chase you all the way back to your base and you do not have enough speed advantage, in an F2, that you can sustain long enough to get clear. Very easy to break an F2's engine.  So once you are in a fight it is usually the case that one of you is going down, unless your opponent suddenly vapourizes because he has got too far away from his flight leader.

 

I found that the AI can usually dodge out of the way when you approach fast, but once you get slow enough to get your slats out you handle much better. The problem then being the other one you did not see.... but I agree with @6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

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23 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

Tell this to the AI.

 

22 hours ago, unreasonable said:

 

I have always found neither of these pieces of advice not to work with the AI I-16s. In RL the Soviet pilots were usually tied to defensive CAPs and not allowed to leaver their area. It would be possible to do a diving attack; if you miss you can dive away or use your speed to climb again. The Soviet pilots rarely followed since they were afraid of being disciplined for not following orders and most of them could barely fly anyway, at least in 1941.

 

In the game, they  tend to avoid you fast diving attacks easily as the AI, even on novice level, has much good SA. They can and will chase you all the way back to your base and you do not have enough speed advantage, in an F2, that you can sustain long enough to get clear. Very easy to break an F2's engine.  So once you are in a fight it is usually the case that one of you is going down, unless your opponent suddenly vapourizes because he has got too far away from his flight leader.

 

I found that the AI can usually dodge out of the way when you approach fast, but once you get slow enough to get your slats out you handle much better. The problem then being the other one you did not see.... but I agree with @6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

 

i cant speak to what the AI is doing, I just know in Multi you cannot dictate an engagement in a rata so you just gotta turn and burn. if a 109 wants to leave he always can 

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I set a QMB with an E7 vs an AI Rata, classic battle. Played 5 times total, shot him down every time doing extremely low speed maneuvering (200-220 kmh, where Rata is almost useless).

Tried the same with the F2, no way.

 

No matter what I do, I just lose.

 

That thing doesn't have the maneuverability the E7 has, nor the speed the F4 has, nor the climb rate the F4 or G2 has, nor the engine reliability the G2 has.

 

Which is sad for me, since I actually decided to give a BIG chance to the F2 in my heart after several months without even looking at it in the planes selection list in QMB. That piece of garbage infuriates me more than perfect situational awareness of AI or the perfect AI aiming or more than everything, godchrist. 

 

So, I give up, it was not nice to meet you 109 F-2, I hope I never see you in my entire life again, ciao.

 

Which is sad since I love Ten Days of Autumn, the atmosphere Black Six created and the missions itself are fun, but the crap of that plane is over me.

 

So I will try to find SCs for E7 and stick to that, that would be my final advice on how to fight Ratas with that plane that I dont even want to mention anymore.

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5 hours ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

So I will try to find SCs for E7 and stick to that, that would be my final advice on how to fight Ratas with that plane that I dont even want to mention anymore.

 

LIONS OF KALININ

Its an excellent E7 Campaing!

If you want to have fun with Ratas fly a Stuka, its turns out I16 easylie.. ;)

 

 

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9 hours ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

I set a QMB with an E7 vs an AI Rata, classic battle. Played 5 times total, shot him down every time doing extremely low speed maneuvering (200-220 kmh, where Rata is almost useless).

Tried the same with the F2, no way.

 

No matter what I do, I just lose.

 

That thing doesn't have the maneuverability the E7 has, nor the speed the F4 has, nor the climb rate the F4 or G2 has, nor the engine reliability the G2 has.

 

Which is sad for me, since I actually decided to give a BIG chance to the F2 in my heart after several months without even looking at it in the planes selection list in QMB. That piece of garbage infuriates me more than perfect situational awareness of AI or the perfect AI aiming or more than everything, godchrist. 

 

So, I give up, it was not nice to meet you 109 F-2, I hope I never see you in my entire life again, ciao.

 

Which is sad since I love Ten Days of Autumn, the atmosphere Black Six created and the missions itself are fun, but the crap of that plane is over me.

 

So I will try to find SCs for E7 and stick to that, that would be my final advice on how to fight Ratas with that plane that I dont even want to mention anymore.

The only use for the f2 is cracking the light and tanks it’s 15mm can damage imo.  It’s just too slow, overheats too easy, and can’t turn or climb like it’s counterparts.

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I played (and really enjoyed!) Ten Days. I felt we always had upper hand flying F-2, including fights against I-16s. But I remember an exception - one rata gave us (two F-2s) hard time and in the end we had to disengage. But I enjoyed that too, you cannot always "win". Don't try to win too hard and you won't lose.

BTW some pictures from my campaign are here: https://www.i16.cz/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1511124970

 

On the other hand I would also love to see AI's SA reduced to human level...

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Just tried another QMB (I already gave up on Ten days) against a rata. 

Big mistake: it made me frustrate as hell once again.

The damned thing does know my exact rudder and stick input, he does know what maneuver I'm doing, or my height or speed I dont care, he just knows. If I start shaking my stick so that my plane rolls one side and another quickly, he respond immediately to that, evading perfectly.

 

Im tired of this. It ruins completely my SP experience, to the point of make me feel upset and frustrated.

 

Im sadly not a millionaire, but If I were, I would put millions on the dev team to hire more AI developers and make AI something more realistic, and not a bunch of perfect robots created to ruin my virtual piloting day.

 

I do know the dev team isn't incredibly big, and the AI dev is new (I dont remember where in the forums I read that).

 

But please, I beg you all, make AI something realistic, and preferably, make it before BoN and BoX and Bo∞.

 

Please.

 

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Out climb them and shot them down. I played trough both SP campaigns.
edit: If you cant outclimb them, out pace them. You dont have to shoot down every single one of them...

Edited by DerSheriff
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6 hours ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

Just tried another QMB (I already gave up on Ten days) against a rata. 

Big mistake: it made me frustrate as hell once again.

The damned thing does know my exact rudder and stick input, he does know what maneuver I'm doing, or my height or speed I dont care, he just knows. If I start shaking my stick so that my plane rolls one side and another quickly, he respond immediately to that, evading perfectly.

 

Im tired of this. It ruins completely my SP experience, to the point of make me feel upset and frustrated.

 

Im sadly not a millionaire, but If I were, I would put millions on the dev team to hire more AI developers and make AI something more realistic, and not a bunch of perfect robots created to ruin my virtual piloting day.

 

I do know the dev team isn't incredibly big, and the AI dev is new (I dont remember where in the forums I read that).

 

But please, I beg you all, make AI something realistic, and preferably, make it before BoN and BoX and Bo∞.

 

Please.

 

 

AI bot fighters are piss easy to kill and evade by any means on this game. They are target practice, and nothing more.

 

I'm sure with some practice you will soon wipe the floor with the AI bots. Good luck.

Edited by Bilbo_Baggins

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