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PaladinX

Enemy chasing you down to your home...

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Fellow pilots,

currently i am playing my first career (BF-109 F, Stalingrad, August 42).

The last mission was to bomb a river crossing activity, my squad was loaded with 250 & 50 kg bombs.

We took off and half way to the target, around 20 enemy fighters appeared and attacked us.

My squad emergency dropped all bombs and fought (4 vs 20) for a while.

Then i got hit and my cooling system was damaged. Ok, go home was my idea. My wingmen were already shut down.

So, i took the shortest path to my home base - with 5 enemy fighters chasing me.

In the area of my base, the flak returned fire, with no success.

My engine was at the end, i tried to land...and then one shot me down. THEN they flew home.

 

So any ideas what would be the correct way to end such a mission?

What can i do to return to my base without half of the russian airforce flying with me, fearing no consequences and bringing my mission to a sad end?

 

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Unfortunately you can't do anything. Those suicide missions (4vs20) are common and AI has no life instincts. Thats why you loose your squad and AI will follow you over flak. 

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While heading home try to fly as low as you can. The enemy AI fails often to follow you in a low flight and crashes into the trees or ground.

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This is ridiculous and really a game breaking experience. I was not aware the AI behaviour is that bad.

Otherwise i love that sim and i am ok with the way the AI fights in the air.

But singleplayer becomes unplayable me at that point 😭

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1 hour ago, PaladinX said:

This is ridiculous and really a game breaking experience. I was not aware the AI behaviour is that bad.

Otherwise i love that sim and i am ok with the way the AI fights in the air.

But singleplayer becomes unplayable me at that point 😭

I'm really rather enjoying this AI behaviour. I find it a challenge to avoid their fire and get back to base. I find low level weaving and full rudder side-slipping throws off their aim and I just see all their ammo being wasted to either side of me. Once you drag them over your AA they will often get damaged and you can then turn the tables on them perhaps even bagging one before they run away.

Edited by Elem
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Enemy fighters chasing the player back to his base is a problem of the mission logic, not an AI issue. In scripted mission it's easy to prevent this behaviour.

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20 minutes ago, PaladinX said:

This is ridiculous and really a game breaking experience. I was not aware the AI behaviour is that bad.

Otherwise i love that sim and i am ok with the way the AI fights in the air.

But singleplayer becomes unplayable me at that point 😭

It's hard, certainly, but it's not ridiculous. The fighting on the Eastern Front was intense and bitter. There was virtually no time for 'chivalry'. Read any decent accounts from those who fought on the Eastern Front and they'll give countless tales of how bloodthirsty and cutthroat the fighting was and that includes the air. I was reading only the other day about how an IL2 pilot who's squadron was attacking an airfield had his plane shot up and realised he wasn't going to make it home. So the choice was to crash land and surrender or fight on until your ammo or aircraft are completely done. He chose the latter, and eventually landed on the enemy airfield itself, opened the cockpit, took his pistol out and shot several of the enemy soldiers coming towards him. My point being that don't go into a flight expecting any give or take, if you choose to fight you're going to have two choices, win or flee.

 

What this means is that you need to learn WHEN to get involved in a fight and when not too. Unless you're particularly in the 'claws out hair on fire' class of pilots (and the history books show that these guys didn't last long) who goes right in and mixes it with any plane he sees no matter what, you'll need to choose when you fight very carefully. In your particular mission, a ground attack mission with few friendly aircraft and then a load of enemy aircraft turn up, it doesn't sound like you have many (or any) advantages over your attackers which you can turn into opportunities to win. So in that case you flee and live to fight another day. The tactics for which are, orientate yourself on which way home is, put your nose down and dive as fast as you can to the ground and 'tree hop'. If enemy fighters are on your six, are they gaining? Or are you pulling away? If you're pulling away keep going, if they're gaining you need to fly like the devil himself, twisting and turning, but without losing airspeed. I generally find that even AI pursuers will give up once you get a certain distance away from them.

 

If you treat your career as 'dead is dead' and that you do only have one life in it, it'll change how you approach situations that pop up during flights.

 

But don't expect 'chivalry' from the enemy, and especially AI.

 

It's not ridiculous, it's how it was.

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1 hour ago, Juri_JS said:

Enemy fighters chasing the player back to his base is a problem of the mission logic, not an AI issue. In scripted mission it's easy to prevent this behaviour.

Is it possible to make mods or something by ourselves?
I dont want to see kamikaze enemy everytimes.
Maybe there is a official fix in couple months later...................  

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S!

 

 Want to avoid the AI? Just fly low hugging tree tops. AI either crashes into ground or gives up the chase. They can not even engage you at tree top level. And AI always does the same maneuvers in combat. Learn them and you can get away from them very easily. Gaming the AI is so easy. But the Pe-2 gunner is a superman :P

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13 minutes ago, Oyster_KAI said:

Is it possible to make mods or something by ourselves?
I dont want to see kamikaze enemy everytimes.
Maybe there is a official fix in couple months later...................  

I think it's not that easy. The logic used in auto-generated missions has to work in all kinds of different situations and can't be easily adapted to particular circumstances like in scripted missions. You can make the AI less aggressive in career mode, but the drawback will be, that you have situations when the AI will completely ignore the player's flight.

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Indeed, i find it ridiculous.

There is no adequate explanation for that behaviour. I dont care if its the "AI" or the "scripting" of that mission (or whatever root cause it has), the effect is the same, they simply have no other decision parameters than distance to the player or their own damage, it seems.

 

Thank you really for your inputs and recommendations, but flying low to let them suicide because  the AI cant handle low level flying is not that kind of solution i expect from such a state-of-the-art simulation. On the other side, DCS is even worse when it comes to AI behaviour.

 

Look at simulations like WOFF or WOTR, where the AI recognizes disadvantages or sometimes decides because of the experience of the AI pilot to abort a fight.

Harsh words because i am really disappointed :( I was just at the beginning to learn this beautiful simulation. But i think for singleplayer experience, there are better alternatives then. Of course all this is not relevant for the online experience.

 

I will give the careers some more tries, maybe i can adapt to this... 🤕

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37 minutes ago, PaladinX said:

I will give the careers some more tries, maybe i can adapt to this... 🤕

 

I've been in the same situation but I failed.

My impression is that this title was initially built for competitive multiplayer (by LOFT) and only much later Jason managed to add Career Mode but the AI and editor is still lacking.

Give it a few years and I'm sure it will mature into a very good singleplayer title too.

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It seems like at one point the deal with enemy fighters chasing you back to base in careers had been solved. Maybe I’m mis-remembering, but this problem existed in the early days of the career and seemed to go away, but appears to be back in full force. Any fix would be appreciated!

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Unfortunately, this AI behaviour is also one of my main gripes and takes a lot of enjoyment out of the campaign for me. The AI is also extremely good at keeping track of you, so hiding in clouds or running away in a faster plane has never worked for me.  It seems, that other than some simple tricks (flying really low and hoping the AI crashes or kiting the AI in circles over your AAA until they are shot down) there is not much one can do to deal with the situation... besides becoming a better pilot and killing them all of course, but dealing with multiple enemies at once is currently way out of my league.

For amateurs like me it would be a great improvement if we had an option to tone down the aggression and single-mindedness of the AI, especially when it comes to chasing down a fleeing player deep into hostile territory.

Edited by Cow_Art

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3 hours ago, Juri_JS said:

Enemy fighters chasing the player back to his base is a problem of the mission logic, not an AI issue. In scripted mission it's easy to prevent this behaviour.

Yes, they need to use Attack Area MCU, not Attack MCU.

 

To OP: maybe you are not meant to survive a 4 v 20. Ever thought of that?

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The AI ganging up on the player is nothing new I'm afraid, it's been that way since day one.

Many times I have been pursued by the enemy, all the way back to my home airfield. Some of the pursuers are even damaged, and they will still follow you doggedly until their aircraft packs up and crashes, instead of turning for home themselves and breaking off the fight.

 

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I would like to see the AI adjusted to not pursue enemies a certain distance past the frontlines. It makes no sense why pilots would chase a damaged enemy fighter at such risk to themselves. I also wish the AI was a little bit smarter about when it tries to make certain maneuvers. IE if the AI is not good enough to follow players at tree-top levels, then it would be nice to have it make a decision to follow higher up. 

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53 minutes ago, Jade_Monkey said:

To OP: maybe you are not meant to survive a 4 v 20. Ever thought of that?

 

Ah, yessss, nice, then my career is intended to end on day 2 of its start. Cool idea, very entertaining!

Even worse for a "simulator", that not my flying skills decide about the outcome, but the rush of enemies scripted in the mission.

 

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1 hour ago, Jade_Monkey said:

Yes, they need to use Attack Area MCU, not Attack MCU.

 

To OP: maybe you are not meant to survive a 4 v 20. Ever thought of that?

 

 Sure the odds are bad and often people are shot down in this situation. No one is complaining about that.

But OP managed to successfully run away and made it back to his home airfield. And I can totally see how its very frustrating to be shot down after such an escape (this has also happened to me many times). In the end you are getting shot down not because you lost a dogfight but because the AI has no sense of self-preservation and happily chases a player for many kilometers (even if they are lagging way behind because they are in much slower planes). They chase you over the front line, way into enemy territory and even through enemy AAA. Just for that one kill. It feels frustrating and pretty unrealistic.

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I love how with every issue raised with this game, there is always that guy (or guys) who tries to convince everyone that it's actually a feature.

 

But anyways, something you can do, is just get yourself back over friendly territory and end the mission.  Not the best solution, but meh.

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Current Spit / Tempest career (transferred from 453 Sqdn to 80 Sqdn when 453 went home). Difficulty Hard, lots of enemy aircraft but not too clever. Last Cover Ground mission, I downed 5 FW's , ran out of ammo and went home. A FW followed, so I stuck on his tail a for a while until he decided to kamikaze himself into the ground. Landed safely. This was my 3rd mission with 5 kills, so it feels a bit unbalanced still.

 

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1 hour ago, Jade_Monkey said:

Yes, they need to use Attack Area MCU, not Attack MCU.

They might be using Low Priority Waypoints too ;)

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5 minutes ago, J28w-Broccoli said:

I love how with every issue raised with this game, there is always that guy (or guys) who tries to convince everyone that it's actually a feature.

 

 

Thats the real interesting point i also already found out in this forum 😁

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35 minutes ago, J28w-Broccoli said:

 

I love how with every issue raised with this game, there is always that guy (or guys) who tries to convince everyone that it's actually a feature.

 

 

Well some of us has seen a lot since the start of this site when it come to complains.

AI has been a subject for critique since day one. 
AI is and has been a ever lasting weakness of this game. As it is for all other. 
We will have to live with this issue a long time. 
Nothing new in this topic not said before. 
 

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59 minutes ago, Cow_Art said:

 They chase you over the front line, way into enemy territory and even through enemy AAA. Just for that one kill. It feels frustrating and pretty unrealistic.

 

I usually exploit that by leading the AI-planes over a friendly airfield and let the friendly AAA guns do their job. Works like a charm, everytime.

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1 hour ago, J28w-Broccoli said:

I love how with every issue raised with this game, there is always that guy (or guys) who tries to convince everyone that it's actually a feature.

 

But anyways, something you can do, is just get yourself back over friendly territory and end the mission.  Not the best solution, but meh.

Yeah, the "over the top fanboi-ness" can be a bit of a turn off

It is too bad that the AI does things like this.  I like the water on the windscreen effect and the new physics thing is pretty cool; however, I'd been happier if that effort was put into fixing player to AI/AI to AI coms and AI behavior/decision making.

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30 minutes ago, BM357_TinMan said:

Yeah, the "over the top fanboi-ness" can be a bit of a turn off


It can be but Jade monkey was not executing fanboyism as you guys claim. 
as I said earlier, complaints have been Devalued to almost non important because of misunderstandings and dramatic behavior from representatives of this community. 
so pleace use fanboyism with care , it exist but in this case you guys are wrong. 
ai is under constant improvement and we can only wait and see

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The biggest issues with the Career mode are as follows:

 

1) Altitudes are always super low- I feel like this wouldn't be too hard to fix. Escort B25s at higher altitudes. 

2) Whenever you come into contact with enemy fighters, they are always at your altitude- it would be nice to shake it up a bit and sometimes you have the advantage and other times they do. Again, shouldn't be hard to randomize it a bit.

3) The whole chasing you back to base issue. It feels like you have to average 2 kills every mission or you won't be making it back. I get it's a game and can't be 100% a sim, but that feeling of going back home only to look in your mirror and see 2 planes tailing you all the way back to your strip every mission can be off putting at times. This one would most likely be a lot tougher to fix, and the only way to mitigate may be to introduce a rule that fighters stop chasing past a certain point, or if they "engage" you for a long enough time without reaching you they pull away. This would cause other problems, however.

 

Overall, the career mode is excellent and a huge addition to the game. The Newspapers, ace tallies, squadron info and backgrounds, front-line evolving etc... it's really nice and the devs did a great job. The above are really minor when you compare it to all the good, but I still hope they work to improve the above.

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Don't know if it still works, but used to be if you leveled off near the middle of the cloud layer with autopilot, they would continue to pursue on the same course, but couldn't see you.  Shot a few down as they passed right over the top in breaks in the clouds, blind spots were modeled.  Haven't flown a campaign in a long time though, as exciting as paint drying.

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Dial down the enemy intensity in options and set at scattered. You've probably got it set at dense so you're going to get a shed-load of enemy turn up at once. Assuming you don't manage to shoot down the planes that would otherwise follow you back, either bug out early while they're busy with your AI colleagues or fly as low as possible back to your lines hedge hopping all the way.

This actually used to happen, I remember reading about a 109 pilot who hedge-hopped all through Kent and then back to France at wave height chased by a couple of very angry Spitfire pilots....:rolleyes:

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2 hours ago, J28w-Broccoli said:

I love how with every issue raised with this game, there is always that guy (or guys) who tries to convince everyone that it's actually a feature.

 

Absent a really new guy @SiPinto (as in there's no way he fits the role of usual suspect) not a single reply has suggested the AI behavior is a feature. I disagree with him that bandits chasing you 50 km behind your lines is realistic, 10 km maybe. @Elem likes the challenge (I hear he also likes getting tied up by Victoria's Secret police) ;). Several guys have pointed out this has been a problem off and on forever. There was indeed a period where it appeared to have been corrected. In fact, I've seen battle damaged AI divert to abandoned airfields. I don't think I've seen that in over a year.

 

57 minutes ago, BM357_TinMan said:

Yeah, the "over the top fanboi-ness" can be a bit of a turn off

 

Factually not a single reply by folks that are regular posters defends this AI behavior. You like the water effects on the windscreen, with 18,000 RL hours in airplanes I find it unrealistic. That doesn't make you a fanboi.

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I have told AI & Single Play Issues in forum since 2014.

Most issues are still around.

 

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The point I made was that 4 against 20 and having planes following you was not unusual on the Eastern Front. It's not ridiculous.

 

Whether it's a bug in the game that they follow you forever is for someone else to decide. I haven't had that experience because I've shaken them off.

 

My other point was the only way out of it is to fly your way out of it.

 

It's not rocket science.

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It's not a feature, it's not a bug. It's also not an AI flaw.

As already stated it has to do with mission logic and is easy to avoid in a scripted mission using a few different methods.

 

 

 

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Turning on the AIs "AI return to base decision" option, and also hooking up a command land on bingo ammo, fuel, damage or injured pilot could also fix this a little.

 

I'm not saying the dynamic campaign isn't perfect and doesn't need improvement. Just that there are ways to fix it.

 

I've also noticed, at least in Flying Circus, that when planes try to perform evasive maneuvers down low sometimes they simply smack strait into the ground, despite not being damaged.

 

Another big thing that really irritates me about IL-2sGBs AI is how it struggles to taxi sometimes. The Me-262 and Sopwith Camel particularly. They will either just sit there, or they will throttle up all the way but still be unable to move. They also insist they they all be lined up perfectly on the runway you set up before the lead plane heads off.

 

Also, in Flying Circus, the AI absolutely insists it climbs above 200m AGL before ending its "takeoff routine" and breaking off to join you, which by that time, you could already be over the front. 

 

Lots of little things that can be fixed eventually, or can be bypassed by setting missions up correctly or differently in the FMB.

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My current issue is getting bounced after returning to base with my flight and my flight continues to try to land despite being attacked. Occasionally they start to fight back but then there they are requesting landing clearance again with three enemy fighters swirling around them. Very frustrating.

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On 11/15/2019 at 3:40 PM, PaladinX said:

What can i do to return to my base without half of the russian airforce flying with me, fearing no consequences and bringing my mission to a sad end?

 

... and without the other half sitting at home laughing at you ... 😂

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Well, that's one the things I really enjoy flying in my present Me262 campaign. After you done with whatever you did, you just head home with a big grin on your face trying to imagine the cursing that must be going on behind you.

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On 11/17/2019 at 10:16 PM, mort said:

My current issue is getting bounced after returning to base with my flight and my flight continues to try to land despite being attacked. Occasionally they start to fight back but then there they are requesting landing clearance again with three enemy fighters swirling around them. Very frustrating.

This!  Just got shot down in my Lightning after having dispatched 3 bandits. My Sqd  got destroyed, because they ignored the enemy on landing. Total BS.

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