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Felix58

Hit boxes, damage model and ground effect

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A couple of minor observations I would like to offer and wonder if others are finding the same thing.

Just to restate the obvious!!  This is alpha and these things could still be under development - I hope so!

 

Hit boxes/damage model

In other sims I have had to put some time and effort into aiming correctly and getting a kill.  At the moment in BOS the hit boxes seem to be huge, even I could be an "ace" in this game.  Seems to be at arcade level.   Aircraft damage - in my flight simming experience, JU87's are a tough bird and difficult to bring down.  A couple of machine-gun hits in BOS and they fall apart as if they were made out of paper mache!

Once again, appreciate this is alpha and we all know that 80% of the project will take 20% of the time - it is the last 20% that makes or breaks the project.

 

Ground effect.

IMHO the ground effect when landing seems muted.

 

Of course, on the other side of the coin, the BOS team might have this correct and my previous experience was incorrect.

 

I'm hoping via the weekly reports or on this thread I might get some feedback on the development of theses issues.

Hit boxes/damage model - still under development or not, will there be different hit box size for each game level setting?

 

Ground effect - is this still to be fine tuned.

 

The BOS project has been impressive to date, for an Alpha build.  Just curious about future tweaks and development.

 

thx

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I have the same enquiries as you do in regards to the damage model and hit boxes. Now before everyone jumps at my throat for bringing up COD please note I am just using it as a reference point for comparison, I am well aware that BOS is still Alpha and COD was years in development etc. In regards to damage, I find it much easier to hit and damage/destroy an enemy plane with simple machine gun fire from long range than I have in other ww2 sims. In COD in particular I found it much more difficult to hit an enemy plane, especially compared to BOS and especially when using the cannon in the 109- it seems to really take the projectile drop into account with the heavier rounds.

 

That being said I noticed the same thing in ROF, I could fire from a long distance away and still have great accuracy and generally bring down an enemy plane at range relatively easily.

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I don't know, I mean, when I compare the feel of the gunnery to other sims (DCS P-51D, IL-2 1946, Rise of flight), I feel that works just about as I would expect, the gunnery feels good, the weapons seem to perform as well as you would expect them to and I don't often find myself wondering why a 20mm cannon round did not severely cripple a enemy bandit when I scored a devastating shot.

 

 Now, I am sure that CloD is going to be the metric that a lot of folks are going to use to judge BoS's gunnery and I can understand that but at the same time, I play a a lot of sims and no matter how many hours I put into DCS P-51D, Rise of flight, IL-2 1946 or even BoS, I still can't get used to CloD's gunnery, perhaps it is the way the planes feel, perhaps it is the floaty feel on the controls, perhaps even the damage values for the weapons, I don't know, something just feels odd, I can't put my finger on it and I am not saying it is bad (so don't start a blasted fight or get angry at what I say here), nor am I saying I don't like to play it, it is just that I have to adopt a entirely different method and that does not make a lot of sense to me, at least when compared to something like DCS P-51D.

 

  I suppose what I am saying here is that I don't really think it is "arcade" at all, it feels different than what many might be used to at this point but I don't think that makes it wrong at all.

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In every combat report from WW2 between a JU87 and an allied plane the allied pilot found this a easy plane to shoot down! The Ju87 was never a ground attack plane but a dive bomber made into a opportunity ground attack plane. Without escort the Ju87 was a sitting "duck" slow and very easy to bring down, not the "uber" plane the German pretended it to be, far from it. The Germans tried many time to replace it but could not due to political implications turn the production of JU87 to a other type of aircraft more suited to the new role of ground attack plane. In not so many words in a normal pilot hands the Ju87 is a easy plane to shoot down, rare on the front  but easy to shoot down if not escorted by fighters?!

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Yeah the 87 is a pretty easy plane to down but mainly due its speed and cockpit, machine guns shouldn't be breaking off wings, especially on something with dive wings.

Clods a pretty good metric to judge plane damage ( basically the thing they put the polish into). It reflects the real reporta pretty accuratly with mgs not causing much structural damage but inflicting function damage when they hit certain things and cannons ripping off whole pieces.

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The Ju-87 WAS a relatively easy plane to destroy, that's why the term "Stuka parties" was first invented as early as the air battle over Dunkirk - even before the BoB.

Edited by PantsPilot

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Dont forget that in Clod, the biggest Cal its 20mm from the German aircraft. (In my opinion, Clod its very Hard to bring down an aicraft, now with TF its more realistic, But strafing with a 110 and only seeing Holes in the wing, its not realistic at all), If you were fliying Brits there, ofcourse you will notice difference here. The Stuka for me seems to be very Hard to bring down, and the Il2 too easy.

 

Away from that, IMHO they are closer from the Good way than far away

Edited by 15[Span.]Manu_vc

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My problem with shooting down JU-87 is my own stupidity. I  get over confident and slow down to get an extra couple of seconds of guns-on time and by the time I go past them I've lost energy and the good pilots turn around a hit me hard.

 

It's my own fault. One day I will learn! :rolleyes:

Edited by Skoshi_Tiger

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Dont forget that in Clod, the biggest Cal its 20mm from the German aircraft., If you were fliying Brits there, ofcourse you will notice difference here. The Stuka for me seems to be very Hard to bring down, and the Il2 too easy.

 

Away from that, IMHO they are closer from the Good way than far away

Not entirely true the real first encounter of RAF fighters and unescorted JU87 was during an  Ju87 attack of Poling radar station on the 18 August 1940, the ju87 where intercepted by Hurricanes of 43 Squadron  five of 31 were destroyed and two badly damaged before the escort could reach them  shortly after that they were removed from battle due to heavy loses. It should also be noted that the first German air to air victory was scored by a JU87 pilot against a polish plane during his first raid against Poland.

Edited by senseispcc

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In my experience in BoS, it is primarily cannon shells and to a lesser extent heavy MG bullets that down aircraft, and it still depends a lot on where you hit. Hit the middle if the fuselage and you might just weaken the structure a bit. Just to test the effect of the ShKAS light MG, I recently made a QM with me in a Yak against 8 novice Ju 87s. First firing only the ShVAK cannon I managed to down 4 Stukas before running out, I then switches to the ShKAS and attacked the only aircraft left in the first flight. I did something like 15 passes, emptying every single bullet I had into him. In the end his gunner was dead, he was missing one landing gear, was leaking all kinds of fluids, was missing several control surfaces and generally looked like he was flying a piece of Emmenthaler, yet he just about managed to keep it in the air.

 

As for hit boxes, I don't think there is such a thing in BoS, at least none that extents beyond the external model. Each hit is nearly represented by different puffs of smoke, so it's actually quite easy to tell just how few of your bullets hit their target. For me it's propably less than 10% in most cases, but even those few shots often gets the job done. Keep in mind, that you're pouring out a lot more lead, than you can actually see. Only about one in five projectiles is a tracer so for every one tracer you can see, you fire four bullets that you can't, yet they can all damage the enemy.

 

The one point I will concede is, that while the guns in BoS are appropriately effective, there are certain types of damage that seems to happen a bit too easy, especially leaking if either fuel, oil or coolant.

  • Upvote 1

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Just to add that if you compare the two, CloD has always felt too difficult in that you shouldn't have to empty all your guns into one bomber just to get a single kill, and BoS is at the other end of the scale in that a single burp of cannon/Mg's (LaGG) will generally trash any plane.

Maybe when BoS is finally released the DM will be like Goldilocks and somewhere in the middle 'not too difficult and not too hard'...  :biggrin:

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The strength of Ju-87's does seem to fluctuate a bit between games, for example it was much easier to destroy a Stuka with a Hurricane 1 in il-2 1946 than in CLOD, I think in the later game they were a bit over-strong and il-2 1946 had them about right. In CLOD it's easier to down multiple twin-engine bombers than it is Ju-87's (I prefer the vanilla game). Haven't noticed a problem so far in BOS. 

 

Incidentally went to the BoB museum at Hawkinge (site of the famous BoB aerodrome) yesterday, and in the armoury there it noted that the firepower effect of 8x303  brownings was the equal of a 10 ton truck hitting a wall at 60 mph! Think .303 guns are usually underpowered in most flight sims, after all many Luftwaffe 109 pilots were in awe of the "blunderbuss" effect of the RAF armament, though obviously as the war went on the guns became less effective due to increased use of armour plate.   

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First firing only the ShVAK cannon I managed to down 4 Stukas before running out, I then switches to the ShKAS and attacked the only aircraft left in the first flight. I did something like 15 passes, emptying every single bullet I had into him. In the end his gunner was dead, he was missing one landing gear, was leaking all kinds of fluids, was missing several control surfaces and generally looked like he was flying a piece of Emmenthaler, yet he just about managed to keep it in the air.

That's pretty much my experience when flying the Yak-1 against the 109 or Stuka. The guns seem to do the damage i would expect from them.

 

 

For instance, i can't remember shooting the wings of any of the planes with the ShKas only, but i'll probably try just that.

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I feel the BoS DM allows for too many wing detatchments. They should be the exception rather than the rule. I actually cannot recall a single example of a wing coming off in CloD, either from my own plane or one I'm shooting down. I know it happened in RL but it was quite rare.

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My gunnery skills in BoS are at mediocre at best, and considering that convergence is still locked at 200, I rarely shoot at anything beyond that.I do however see and must compensate for projectile drop. In my experience a few hits cause damage and produce smoke but only occasionally will a few hits bring a plane down.

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I doubt that in 2014 a game still uses boxes for collision detection.

Indeed it does not. To my knowledge it uses collision models that approximate the shape of the aircraft/parts, so there should be very little if any issue.

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Just to add that if you compare the two, CloD has always felt too difficult in that you shouldn't have to empty all your guns into one bomber just to get a single kill, and BoS is at the other end of the scale in that a single burp of cannon/Mg's (LaGG) will generally trash any plane.

Maybe when BoS is finally released the DM will be like Goldilocks and somewhere in the middle 'not too difficult and not too hard'...  :biggrin:

In COD the RAF plane have .303 guns and did have some difficulties to get bomber's down. But they did. The punch of one 20 mm is much stronger. Soviet guns where fast and heavy, deadly when in good hands.

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Indeed it does not. To my knowledge it uses collision models that approximate the shape of the aircraft/parts, so there should be very little if any issue.

 

And this can be easily checked to be true in RoF. In slow motion you can check each hit of each bullet and its effect. I didn´t do this in BoS yet, but as it is the same engine, why should they introduce "huge hit boxes" ? Makes no sense at all.

 

About ground effect: the search function can help. It has been discussed already.

 

About DM of IL2: If you dodge the 109 attacks properly, you can survive a lot of attacks and just suffer some holes in the wings.

It can take a lot of damage. Only if you get a full cannon burst you fall apart. Plausible to me.

Edited by Quax

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On the other hand, is ease for Stuka rear gunner damage your LaGG engine with his two 7.92mm MG's. :)

 

If you hear a weak "ping" , you can be sure that have a "locomotive" of steam/smoke behind you.

 

:biggrin:

 

Sokol1

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What I have found is the light MG's are good at doing engine damage but not much else. You can cripple an enemy plane with them, but actually bringing one down is tricky. This is true for both the 109 and the Yak. The heavy MG on the LaGG is a different story, it seems to strike almost as hard as a 20mm. The damage from 20mm's and up is about what I would expect from watching countless guncam films and playing nearly every CFS since 1990. As for CloD, it always felt sort of artificial to me tbh. Seriously, just what exactly are the odds of severing a control cable? Those things are both tiny (in profile) and pretty tough. In CloD that's the standard shoot down method though. It was freakishly common in the original IL2 series too. I agree that perhaps wings are a little too prone to popping off in BoS but beyond that it feels about right to me.

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I still feel that engines are way too easily damage, rounds that land anywhere close to the engine regardless of caliber seem to do guaranteed damage. While in original Il2 damage to control cables seemed a little bit too common, engine damage felt way more accurate. You had a hard time hitting an engine 'randomly', and even then it usually required an HMG round or a cannon round from a decent angle.

 

I don't know, it just feels frustrating to be shot at once and 90% of the time you have to RTB immediately due to engine damage even though the rest of your plane is fine.

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