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I was an avid ROF pilot and was really looking forward to the Flying Circus.  I pre-ordered it even bought a key or two for my friends.  Things seemed promising.  Cool map too (even if the trenches are flat decals)....   But after the 'pilot retard... er realism patch', I noticed that the WWI pilots are getting knocked out for little to no reason, and wonder what y'all did.  You get a wing to tail bullet stitching, KO!  Tail gunner rando wing shots you, KO!   Head on gun pass, KO!  Looking at tracers no where near hitting the cockpit... KO!!!   Then 30 seconds later you wake up and have little to zero control input.  Looking down at the stick, there's nothing preventing movement, and when looking around the tail and the rest of the aircraft are in good flying order... What gives?  This is bullshit for a few reasons.  First, my plane getting hit doesn't mean I should lose consciousness.  Did you guys implement this same code for the WWII birds?  No?  Why then for the WWI guys?  I'll be in a fight and watch where the guy shooting at me is and look at where there are bullet strikes are occurring or about to, and I make sure to try and keep it so that even if he does hit my plane he won't get a hit on me, thus nothing hits near me -I shouldn't lose consciousness.  Yet I do.... 

It's like when y'all did your 'realism' G-loc nerf on the WWII pilots, you decided that something had to be done to the WWI pilots too.   Since the g-loc tolerances weren't measurable enough to screw the WWI guys you instead decided to knock them out for aircraft damage taken 10 meters away?  And then when they come to and look around, see minimal damage to the aircraft,  you decide to code nerfed inputs?  That's just wrong.  Can we see some damage models?  Don't get me wrong, I appreciate getting bloodied and oiled, it was a hallmark of ROF (should code a wipe face/goggle button), and I could even understand a random KO in RARE circumstance (HOWEVER, I'VE NEVER READ OF IT HAPPENING IN ANY WWI MEMOIR AND ONLY ONCE IN A WWII MEMOIR).  It wasn't the norm in a dogfight as you guys have made it....  But hell..   I flew a Se5 today and the compass indicated the wrong heading for the direction I was flying.  One of the many bugs.  Please get your priorities straight.  Work on the damn planes, not knocking out pilots on some stupid bullshit realism variable Karen is pumping.

 

Thank you.

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Mileage may vary !!!

 

I much prefer FC and the damage model seems far preferable in as much as wings tend to stay attached and aircraft appear to take more periferal damage than in RoF.  I haven't noticed any undue, or exaggerated, PK's.

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I believe the DM is shared by the WW2 pilots. If you’re playing online and look at the sortie log you’ll find your pilot probably took a hit and that it wasn’t actually caused by a structural hit.

 

It cuts both ways though and injuring the pilot and particularly AI sniper they’ve substituted for an observer is super useful in a fight.

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4 hours ago, WWBrinson said:

(HOWEVER, I'VE NEVER READ OF IT HAPPENING IN ANY WWI MEMOIR AND ONLY ONCE IN A WWII MEMOIR)

 

The reason you've never read of it happening is that taking a bullet in the face is usually extremely fatal, even if you survive the initial impact.

 

Even so, it only happened to the most famous pilot of World War I, the one even my wife knows, El Crimson Manuel. His head injury indeed cost him his life almost a year later.

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I'm pretty sure the pilot models have hit boxes and require a bullet to go through them to injure/kill the pilot. If that's not happening it must be a bug, not an intentional design.

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4 hours ago, WWBrinson said:

Looking at tracers no where near hitting the cockpit... KO!!! 

You are aware that tracers are only a fraction of all things hitting you, right?

 

4 hours ago, WWBrinson said:

You get a wing to tail bullet stitching, KO!

Why do you think it was the "tail bullet"? Couldn't there be any other?

 

5 hours ago, WWBrinson said:

Head on gun pass, KO!

What is your expectation of what machine guns do?

 

5 hours ago, WWBrinson said:

I could even understand a random KO in RARE circumstance (HOWEVER, I'VE NEVER READ OF IT HAPPENING IN ANY WWI MEMOIR AND ONLY ONCE IN A WWII MEMOIR).

You think people who got his from machine guns write memoirs?

 

5 hours ago, WWBrinson said:

Since the g-loc tolerances weren't measurable enough to screw the WWI guys you instead decided to knock them out for aircraft damage taken 10 meters away?

G-loc does that? is that what you are saying? Seriously?

 

5 hours ago, WWBrinson said:

First, my plane getting hit doesn't mean I should lose consciousness. 

Maybe that is becuase you got hit?

 

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No armor on WWI planes.  Just a wicker seat back.  Maybe from absolutely dead six something in the frame stops a bullet.  From any other angle, for most rounds,  the only thing of consequence between the hole in the fabric and the engine block is the lump of meat behind the controls.

 

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Not all shot should get pilot unconscious that for sure , jet is very easy to aim and in that torrent of bullets it's easy to injure head or other vital part one after another.  I don't know unfortunately how it was programed (plus if there any difference  which part of body was hit - in ROF was not) and  if bullet in the leg would KO. 

Edited by 1PL-Husar-1Esk
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Thanks all for the responses.  Apologies if I came off as confrontational.  It was not my intent.  I just think the KO needs to be either dialed back or turned off so the pilot dies.

---

@Zach 

You are aware that tracers are only a fraction of all things hitting you, right?

Yes.

Why do you think it was the "tail bullet"? Couldn't there be any other?

Yes.

What is your expectation of what machine guns do?

Not magically temporarily knock people out.  Death.

 

You think people who got his from machine guns write memoirs?

Guess you mean 'hits' here.. But sure.  Google Nishizawai and read his autobiography.  He woke up inverted and passed out several times on the way home.  And this is a guy who flew 100s of sorties.  It didn't happen to him every time his aircraft was hit.

 

G-loc does that? is that what you are saying? Seriously?

Nope.  Please reread.  Seriously.  Or differently stated with same premise... I think the devs decided they had to add some 'realism' to the WWI pilots and since they couldn't nerf them via gloc, they added some weird ass knock out parameters.

 

Maybe that is becuase you got hit?

Maybe I did or not, but I refer to my previous question above.  What do you think machine guns do?  Temp KO?

----

 

1 hour ago, PatrickAWlson said:

No armor on WWI planes.  Just a wicker seat back.  Maybe from absolutely dead six something in the frame stops a bullet.  From any other angle, for most rounds,  the only thing of consequence between the hole in the fabric and the engine block is the lump of meat behind the controls.

 

 

Great point.  But I don't know why that would KO someone.

 

 

5 hours ago, J5_Hellbender said:

 

The reason you've never read of it happening is that taking a bullet in the face is usually extremely fatal, even if you survive the initial impact.

 

Even so, it only happened to the most famous pilot of World War I, the one even my wife knows, El Crimson Manuel. His head injury indeed cost him his life almost a year later.

 

Indeed.  Thanks for the reminder.  And of the all the damage to his aircraft and his person on all the sorties he flew, he was knocked once.  I don't know about your last sentence though.  I had thought he took one through the back and out his chest.  Did he dizzily fly through the machine gun fire?   Not trying to be coy.  I'm am interested and welcome your thoughts/knowledge.

----

4 hours ago, J3Hetzer said:

I'm pretty sure the pilot models have hit boxes and require a bullet to go through them to injure/kill the pilot. If that's not happening it must be a bug, not an intentional design.

 

I'd love to see it.  Or maybe I'm bitching about some splash damage settings that needs a minor tweaking.

 

7 hours ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

Mileage may vary !!!

 

I much prefer FC and the damage model seems far preferable in as much as wings tend to stay attached and aircraft appear to take more periferal damage than in RoF.  I haven't noticed any undue, or exaggerated, PK's.

 

Hah... Yeah.  It does.  I just find that since the 'pilot nerfing' patch the KO's seem to be happening constantly.  Maybe it's just me cause I'm flying WWI stuff more.  Other than that, I do like the damage model.  I think the Devs did a great job on it. 

-----

I guess my point is that I bought a flight sim, not a pilot sim.  While I understand that the two can go hand in hand, and some of the pilot 'realism' stuff is neat, I'd rather see the devs time better used.  Say like making accurate planes and flight models, knocking out the many bugs instead of pilots (like compasses that point the wrong direction), adding custom control curves per plane (like ROF), a campaign (like ROF), and lastly but not least MORE planes (like bombers).

 

S!

Edited by WWBrinson

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17 minutes ago, WWBrinson said:

 

What is your expectation of what machine guns do?

Not magically temporarily knock people out.  Death.

 

So if they'd substituted "KO" with "Dead", you wouldn't be whining about it here...?

 

 

17 minutes ago, WWBrinson said:
I think the devs decided they had to add some 'realism' to the WWI pilots and since they couldn't nerf them via gloc, they added some weird ass knock out parameters.


I think they're not making up physics restrictions solely for the FC module. They apply changes to the whole and all modules benefit (in good or bad way) from it.
I wouldn't also use the term "nerf" here.

Have you noticed how prolonged dogfighting is affecting your G tolerance in FC?

 

 

17 minutes ago, WWBrinson said:

I guess my point is that I bought a flight sim, not a pilot sim.  While I understand that the two can go hand in hand, and some of the pilot 'realism' stuff is neat, I'd rather see the devs time better used.  Say like making accurate planes and flight models, knocking out the many bugs instead of pilots (like compasses that point the wrong direction), adding custom control curves per plane (like ROF), a campaign (like ROF), and lastly but not least MORE planes (like bombers).

 

I'd sure as hell like to see similar stuff in FC. (I believe the compass bug has been reported [together with many others], just not yet addressed.)
But the pilot physiology is a very good thing IMO and it's one of the few things that make FC much more realistic than RoF.

I've spent quite some time flying FC, both offline and online. There definitely are hits that will KO you, but not every hit does that. Several times I got hit and didn't lose consciousness.
Also, my plane was hit many times and unless it is virtual engine/pilot hit, it's just punching holes in canvas/plywood. No erratic plane behaviour (as in RoF) after couple of hits in the wings.

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The best route is to do some tests. Get someone online, land side by side somewhere and use the pistol to shoot at each other. Then you can record it and tell us if pilots are blacking out with single shots that are not in the head, which then I don’t think it is realistic, since just by the adrenaline of combat itself would make people conscious and even unaware of the hits for a while, even after receiving critical wounds.

 

MvR blacked out with that bullet in the head. He lost sight (got blinded) and muscle control, but he was conscious the hole time until he gained control of his body and was able to land. The same happens with the g-locks. We need to figure the real g-forces that these planes are inducing in the maneuvers, why it is hard to induce grayouts flying Pfalzes and Albies when diving and sharply pulling up, etc.

 

Other than that, it is all speculation.

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I like the effect. Taking a .303 round anywhere isnt likely to be a pleasant experience, more so if it's in the dome or torso. If you dont black out right away you most certainly wont be combat effective. In my personal experiences and observations in combat, adrenaline is certainly there, but it's the exception and not the rule that it will help you overcome wounds and still fight.

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This is a result of the interaction between sudden wounds and G tolerances.  The shot is not what is blacking you out.

 

It needs adjusted.

Edited by J28w-Broccoli
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A bullet to the stomach lowers the blood pressure to the brain and often results in a loss of consciousness.  There's nothing wrong with the DM.

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4 minutes ago, Todt_Von_Oben said:

A bullet to the stomach lowers the blood pressure to the brain and often results in a loss of consciousness.  There's nothing wrong with the DM.

I agree getting shot really sucks, many things can happen from the blunt force trauma let alone blood loss. Why would getting shot in here be ok?

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16 minutes ago, Todt_Von_Oben said:

A bullet to the stomach lowers the blood pressure to the brain and often results in a loss of consciousness.  There's nothing wrong with the DM.

 

So all this happens in a fraction of a second? It does not make much sense. They could model limb restriction because of wounds, but until then, the constant blackouts seem a bit off.

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W.G.Barker was knocked out 3 or 4 times while being shot in his legs and shoulder While in his snipe. Woke up each time and was still able to shoot down a number of D7's. then land. 

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2 hours ago, Todt_Von_Oben said:

A bullet to the stomach lowers the blood pressure to the brain and often results in a loss of consciousness.  There's nothing wrong with the DM.

 

Do you come back from that in 10 seconds?

 

No.  That isn't what is happening here.

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2 hours ago, NO.28W_Barker said:

W.G.Barker was knocked out 3 or 4 times while being shot in his legs and shoulder While in his snipe. Woke up each time and was still able to shoot down a number of D7's. then land. 

 

So let's analyze it - he was wounded in the right thigh, but managed, despite this, to shoot down the enemy aeroplane in flames [so no blackouts so far]. Then he was wounded in his left thigh [lucky guy], but still succeeded in driving down two of the enemy in a spin [so no blackouts so far]. Only then he lost consciousness and his machine fell out of control [probably immerse in pain and loss of blood]. Then he regained consciousness and attacked another formation, and this time he was heavily hit and almost lost his entire left elbow [!] and fainted for the second time.

 

That’s it. He still shot down another plane, was attacked by another formation and crash landed somewhere if I recall correctly.

 

So I think context is everything. This is not what's happening in Flying Circus. Then again, his story would be something that could happen if we had limb injuries modeled, but in my personal opinion, there are many other more important things to take care, and the constant instant blackouts still seem to be off.

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16 hours ago, US213_Hall said:

If you dont black out right away you most certainly wont be combat effective.

You would MOST certainly not be out on the lash that evening with yer mates and that's a fact!! ;)

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This has been discussed already, thread should be closed as duplicate.

Having been in accidents with traumatic damage to head and torso several times I can confirm that shock and confusion takes you out for 10-30 seconds. You need to realise what happened, check if you can move your toes, get out of "OMG I'm hurt for real what now" state, remember where you are. what you are supposed to be doing and how to use the controls.  You are technically aware, but your SA is nonexistent. Then, even a glancing hit to the head (one after which you can go on your own to get yourself stiched) results in 10-20 seconds of lost conciousness. 

Edited by J2_Trupobaw
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8 hours ago, SeaW0lf said:

 

So I think context is everything. This is not what's happening in Flying Circus. Then again, his story would be something that could happen if we had limb injuries modeled, but in my personal opinion, there are many other more important things to take care, and the constant instant blackouts still seem to be off.

 

If you do think context is everything, I suggest you should not have an issue; there has to be an acceptable way of representing wounds and the momentary incapacity they may bring. Were the pilot to suffer incapacity without any other visual indication, it would give the impression of a malfunction.

 

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20 hours ago, SeaW0lf said:

The best route is to do some tests. Get someone online, land side by side somewhere and use the pistol to shoot at each other. Then you can record it and tell us if pilots are blacking out with single shots that are not in the head, which then I don’t think it is realistic, since just by the adrenaline of combat itself would make people conscious and even unaware of the hits for a while, even after receiving critical wounds.

 

I think you could be on the right lines but why limit ourselves to a simulation? Perhaps someone living in one of those countries bristling with firearms, could offer themselves as a guinea pig for a proper test.

 

Regarding likely effects of a bullet hit to the torso, this section of a certain familiar documentary may give some idea.

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I like it because I can hail mary stall and all it takes is one of my bullets to KO the guy flying cautiously.

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Some in-game observations: 

I've noticed before that pilots have been wounded and it HASN'T blacked them out, after the update. If you've seen Hotlead's recent FC stream, you'll notice he catches a bullet in a fight with two S.E5as and doesn't black out. To me, this means one of two things: 

1) There are different 'hitboxes' for different parts of the pilot's body 
2) Only a DOUBLE wound will K.O a pilot 

 

I've also noticed (much to my horror) a rather scary new feature - the instant kill. Sometimes a bullet will just outright kill you, 100% wounded. I haven't really been able to figure out what makes this happen, but I distinctly remember being prop-hung by a D.VII F and suddenly being in 3rd person...at the time the D.VII F was flopping over at the top of his stall. I'm almost positive he can't have hit me with any more that 2 or 3 bullets! After this, D.VII F got into an elongated fight with a Camel, and his parser had 17 recorded hits total (mostly on Camel by the looks of it). 

That, to me, makes me believe more that there are different hitboxes for different sections of the body, and seeing as the head is the most obvious target when shooting at pilots, perhaps that's what's causing the K.O's. 

Would be great if the Devs could give us an in-depth rundown of the pilot wounding mechanics! 


 

Edited by US93_Larner
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Could have been 2 bullets in close succession. Check the parser. I've experienced the out of plane experience from tail gunners 3X this month.

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1 hour ago, US93_Larner said:

Would be great if the Devs could give us an in-depth rundown of the pilot wounding mechanics! 

 

That would clarify all of our doubts.

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On 11/14/2019 at 3:19 PM, WWBrinson said:

Guess you mean 'hits' here.. But sure.  Google Nishizawai and read his autobiography.  He woke up inverted and passed out several times on the way home.  And this is a guy who flew 100s of sorties.  It didn't happen to him every time his aircraft was hit.

 

I think you are confusing Hiroyoshi Nishizawa with Saburō Sakai. Nishizawa died in combat during WWII and never wrote a memoir. His freind and squadron mate Sakai survived the war and co-wrote a memoir with Martin Caidin called Samurai!, a fantastic and well known book that relates the story your refer to about Sakai's flight back to base after being hit by a bullet in the head by an Avenger rear gunner.

 

Hiroyoshi Nishizawa was reckoned to be the highest scoring Japanese pilot of WWII, whereas Saburō Sakai was the highest scoring Japanese pilot who survived WWII.

 

Anyhow I still agree with @ZachariasX 's point that pilots who are shot by machine guns normally don't survive to write memoirs about it. Sakai's survival story could be the exception that proves the rule as it is rare bordering on unique to the point where it cannot be considered a benchmark for anything, least of all setting a pilot damage model here.

Edited by Pict
Spelling, tweaking etc.

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I was in a head-on car crash, combined speed around 70mph. The airbag hit me hard enough that I wasn't able to retain a memory post-impact for longer than a minute (lasted a few hours) but I was aware of it and also immediately fully functional. Not the same as a bullet of course.

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