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Johnhil06

Dogfighting with the P-38

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Hello chaps, 

im new to the sim, and pretty interested to master the P-38 in dogfight.

i know for a fact that the plane in the hands of good pilots could be very effective, as it allowed many aces to be born.

So my question is this : What are your techniques to master the P-38 ?

Think of it as a back to debrief pilot chat, no need to BS me with useless info and technical nonsense out of context please, im a real life FI, just need to go straight to point.

 

For what i saw, P-38 is not very popular on online servers (my actual ratio is approx. 1kill to 10 for the jerries) and i saw that in many occasions :

my P-38 is :

* Outpowered in turn radius by 109s and 190s

* Outpowered in climb rate by 109s and 190s (its a darn multi-engine A/C for f*cks sakes, am i missing something ??)

* Outpowered in level flight by 109s and 190s

 

the only poor technique i found to dogfight online was to lick the ground under the dogfighting zone, pick one lost Me-109 and shoot it down if i dont overshoot it.

 

I began to read the two P-38 manuals online but it seems there is no real dogfighting advices on them.

 

So my questions to the P-38 guys here

Would you guys prefer to bring the ennemy at low altitude in a horizontal turn fight ?

Would you guys prefer to bring the enemy in a vertical fight ?

For what reason ?

is it me or the Me109 seems two much overpowered  ?

What are your references to fly the P-38 videos, manuals, that work ?

i want to improve my ratio with combat proven techniques, i read enough manuals all day long to do it again once at home, so just looking for simple and legit advices.

i know im heavier but its a darn turbocharged twin engine aircraft... dammit...

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Yes, something is wrong. The P-38 we have in this game is a total beast. It has an excellent climb rate and outstanding low-speed, nose high handling (especially the zero-torque part). The armament is great as well. The only reason I personally don't fly it a whole lot is because I love the P-47 and P-51 more. The P-38 is one of those aircraft that I love the look of from the outside, but hate the view from the cockpit (even though it's one of the top modelling jobs in the game).

 

The 109 is a respectable opponent for the P-38 in a level to climbing fight. Going downhill, I'd rather be in a P-38. The 190 is pretty easier to out-maneuver in the classic dogfighting sense, unless you misjudge closure and overshoot as the 190 uses its roll-rate advantage against you. 

 

When (virtual) pilots are getting out-powered (as you described) by enemy aircraft, and when the performances differences aren't all that significant, what typically is happening is players are using all their energy to get their nose pointed in the general vicinity of the bandit, and then when the bandit tightens his turn or goes uphill, you can't follow because you're out of energy. If the 190 is out turning you or out-powering you, this is almost certainly what is happening. 

 

If you want technical advice, with a P-38 vs the Luftwaffe, here's what I'd personally recommend:

 

- Neutral merge versus a 109: force fight single circle, focus on getting behind the bandit first (rather than just trying to pull him into your gunsight), then kill the bandit

 

- Neutral merge vs a 190: two circle, out-rate, kill.

 

As for the rest of your questions:

 

- The P-38 turns quite well. The safest tactic is always to bounce your enemy while remaining undetected and with an energy advantage, but I'd be fine turning in the Lightning vs just running away half way across the map. I have no desire to force a treetop turn fight though, ever.

- Fighting in the vertical...if you mean trading airspeed for altitude and altitude for airspeed to remain in an offensive perch type position, then yes. Some folks think just turning and burning in the vertical is more sophisticated though, but it's not. Turning in the vertical versus a co-energy bandit that can also maneuver in the vertical isn't significantly different than flat turns, you're just fighting gravity on the way up and have gravity's help on the way down. 

- 109 K4 is a beast. I don't know that anyone considers it over modeled though. 

- Check out Requiem's video on the P-38 for engine management.

 

Good luck! 

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The P-38 will out turn ANY plane except the spit in the game with full flaps. If you get into a 2 circle geometry, you can out rate anyone luftwaffe. 109 doesnt stand a chance. At higher speeds you have more than enough rate to hang with anyone. Once you run out of altitude and get into a sea level rate fight,  wait till speed bleeds off and go full flap. Watch that P-38 turn like a champ.

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P-38 is one of the best allied aircraft in the game when it comes to dogfighting imo. It can roll like nothing else at high speeds and has a good climb and turn rate. 190s are very easy to beat, all you need to do is turn and kill, dump some flaps if needed.

109s are a bit trickier but can still be taken out rather easily. The P-38 can turn with a 109 when using flaps so keep that in mind. It can climb really well so one tactic that the 109s love wont work very well against the P-38 (slow steep spiral climb). If I find a 109 diving on me I usually just dump some flaps and turn on him as he starts to climb back up, if I have enough speed I'm able to stick with him until I get some shots off.

 

The best tactic for the P-38 though as well as every other aircraft is to just BnZ or hit and run, stay high and dive in on your target.

I hate being caught low so I usually tend to fly mid-high altitude and just dive when I want to attack, if I miss I have the speed to just climb back up and stay out of harms way, this way I control the fight and never have to worry about the enemy gaining the advantage.

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People think that "oh its just 2 engine fat cow". Something like 110 or Pe-2, (even tho either of those can be scary in right hands)

 

No, its a thoroughbred fighter, with power to weight ratio, armament and wing area to show for it. 

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Plane is good, same goes for the P 39 in the east. But it do not always play out that way in a cfs. One cannot adopt all historical things into a 

game full of individuals. When the real deal was about objectives and virtual is only about personal easy as possible kills. 
US pilot training was extremely good late war and based on cooperation

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* Outpowered in turn radius by 109s and 190s

* Outpowered in climb rate by 109s and 190s (its a darn multi-engine A/C for f*cks sakes, am i missing something ??)

* Outpowered in level flight by 109s and 190s

Absolutely not true at all altitudes.  The higher you go, the more you gain in relative performance, surpassing everything above 25K.  You should be dominating everything above 20 without dispute.

 

The only major weakness is in lower hemisphere visibility, its essential to fight in one as a team, since your apt to lose the fight when you lose sight.  Good fighting pair working together will fix that.  Any sane fighter or pair will run from two Lightnings vectoring in from above them.

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Great ! Thanks a lot for all the advices, i'm going to take notes and try them. 

 

to answer to PRE :

Thanks for all the advices, i agree, the modeling job of the cockpit is outstanding. too bad it don't have a clickable cockpit. assigning key biding is a nightmare, especially for the startup. i'll look up for the video about engine management, and try your general advices.

 

to answer to [TLC]YIPPEE :

I Never thought of using full flaps in a circle, how dumb, and so simple.... thanks a lot. I will try it for sure. smh. *facepalm*

 

to answer to Legioneod :

what do you mean by BnZ ? i usually stay high, then dive on Tgt, but usually while trying to follow the jerry in the vertical, i bleed too much speed and finish with an airspeed around 100mph, hauling my heavy *ss trying to follow the bandit, looking it dissapearing far away. Are you playing with any prop settings during a fight ? i usually dont touch them, going all the way during the dogfight  on a full fine setting.

 

to answer to CPT Crunch :

 

1) That's what i noticed while flying the P-38 after around 10h hours in multiplayer. i use realistic settings, and can't seem to keep up after any german aircraft. What is your climb speed as a reference ? what relative nose angle to the horizon ?

2) i know that working as a pair is one of the basics, obviously, but while online, nobody seems to care to work like that. Sure some virtual squadrons do that (especially Germans ones, making them very efficient, for what i saw) but usually i end up all alone trying to snatch lone kills. And i honestly don't have time (or willingness) to join a virtual squadron, as from my past personnal experience, everybody there tend to be too much serious at pretending to be top notch dudes, with almost no knowledge at all, and end up p*ssing me off. Never tried a virtual squadron in IL-2BoBP though.

3) Will try to bring the fight to higher altitudes for sure. the turbocharger in lower altitudes don't seem to do sh*t...

 

 

Anyways, thanks fro all the answers, that's all i was waiting for, i'll sleep on that, and practice a lot.

 

Thanks a lot.

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And last but not least important advice (valuable for theP51 and the P47 too): do not carry too much fuel. These planes have huge tanks...;)

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2 hours ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

Absolutely not true at all altitudes.  The higher you go, the more you gain in relative performance, surpassing everything above 25K.  You should be dominating everything above 20 without dispute.

 

The only major weakness is in lower hemisphere visibility, its essential to fight in one as a team, since your apt to lose the fight when you lose sight.  Good fighting pair working together will fix that.  Any sane fighter or pair will run from two Lightnings vectoring in from above them.

 

By far the most annoying part of the P-38 is the visibility, otherwise seems like it can do some serious damage, especially with Germans that wish to turn. I'm really curious as to what convergence distance people use for this plane in general

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Salutations,

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't all of the P-38s weapons in it nose? Is convergence even a worthy consideration? 

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I akways set my convergence at 400m A2A and 600 for A2G.  But as noted the guns are all mounted in the nose so convergence isnt as important with the P38

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At high altitude it's not just climb, do it in combination with turn and maneuver.  Some German planes can pretty much match you in speed and level climb, but no way any can match you in a combo of turning with climb.  Run circles around them in an upward spiral fight, they'll suck on air trying to catch you.  Best is to start out already above, than you get to play their "old" game, pick and choose how, when, and where to shoot them, while they play defensive dodge ball or present tail and try to run.  You've got the clearly superior high speed maneuver ability upstairs.  Be aware once they pull you lower the game has been equalized, so it takes some discipline and fix yourself a hard deck.  If more than one opponent, never let either get above you for a moment, keep dragging them up, you will get a shot even though it appears your all defensive.   

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Just now, LF_Gallahad said:

How much fuel do you guys load for a normal 45 min flight? 😉

For a P38 I take 45-50% and frankly thats probably too much anyways.

Same with the P51.  One thing I dont do with the P51 is ever take over 74%  as the fuel really f's with CoG.

To the OP - a good way to fight in the P38 is a climbing turn Ive noticed. However as others have said BnZ or boom and zoom - which sounds a lot like what youre trying to do is most effective.  However if youre able to when you make your pass dont get sucked into turning or trying to stay with the German.  Try to work on your accuracy - when you strike you fire in that pass and use your speed to extend away and climb,  then try to reorient yourself for another slashing attack... it really helps to keep your speed up. Same as the P51.

The LW planes tend to have pretty fast acceleration so I try to keep my airspeed higher at all times than I would flying other planes.

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460 meters convergence as per it's chart.  The deviation above and below the sight line out to 1000 yards shouldn't be more than 8 inches above or below on any point of the sight line if modeled accurate, and it seems plenty good to me.  Generally run the bottom gauges full, 800 liters for a air to air expecting contact, add another 100 if carrying ordinance, my preference.

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1 hour ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

460 meters convergence as per it's chart.  The deviation above and below the sight line out to 1000 yards shouldn't be more than 8 inches above or below on any point of the sight line if modeled accurate, and it seems plenty good to me.  Generally run the bottom gauges full, 800 liters for a air to air expecting contact, add another 100 if carrying ordinance, my preference.

 

Chart? What do you mean chart? Can you show me, I think historical measures are a good guide because they probably did better math than me anyways XD

 

Also I have no Idea what you meant by the deviation sentence : D

2 hours ago, Sublime said:

I akways set my convergence at 400m A2A and 600 for A2G.  But as noted the guns are all mounted in the nose so convergence isnt as important with the P38

 

Right now I have 600 meters for A2A just from playing around, there's people that bump the .50's to the maximum 1000m just so they can reach out as far as possible but I find it makes the more normal shots a little off with me having to aim below the guy since the bullets are getting lobbed basically

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The bullet will not rise or drop over 8 inches from the sight image crosshair you see projected out to 1000 yards.  You can see that in the chart.

Edited by [CPT]Crunch
additional info

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On 11/3/2019 at 4:56 AM, [TLC]YIPPEE said:

The P-38 will out turn ANY plane except the spit in the game with full flaps. If you get into a 2 circle geometry, you can out rate anyone luftwaffe. 109 doesnt stand a chance. At higher speeds you have more than enough rate to hang with anyone. Once you run out of altitude and get into a sea level rate fight,  wait till speed bleeds off and go full flap. Watch that P-38 turn like a champ.

wouldn't that be a bad idea? I mean turning low and slow with an American plane.

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4 hours ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

wouldn't that be a bad idea? I mean turning low and slow with an American plane.


ssshhhh, don’t tell them. 🤣

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6 hours ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

wouldn't that be a bad idea? I mean turning low and slow with an American plane.

No? Why would being low and slow be a bad idea in an american plane? Being low and slow is bad in general, but its not worse in an american plane than anything else. unless your comparing it to a spit.

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2 hours ago, [TLC]YIPPEE said:

No? Why would being low and slow be a bad idea in an american plane? Being low and slow is bad in general, but its not worse in an american plane than anything else. unless your comparing it to a spit.

If Im flying lets say a Yak or a La, I wouldn't care flying slow and low as much as I would care if I were flying an American, that's just me anyways, I feel "unsafe" flying murrican things, they are "delicate" and need to be flown very well to shine, while russian planes are "friendlier" for not very experienced players like me... IMO

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32 minutes ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

If Im flying lets say a Yak or a La, I wouldn't care flying slow and low as much as I would care if I were flying an American, that's just me anyways, I feel "unsafe" flying murrican things, they are "delicate" and need to be flown very well to shine, while russian planes are "friendlier" for not very experienced players like me... IMO

I'd agree with that. Certain American aircraft shouldn't be flown low (P-47 mostly) other aircraft like the P-38 and P-51 can be flown low and still have a decent ability to defend themselves.

I got in a fight with 3-4 190s (maybe more idk) yesterday on Combat Box. I was in a P-51 on the deck, I managed to down one of them and got hits on most of the others I think (not 100% sure). During that fight I never really felt outclassed or hopeless just because I was on the deck, I probably would have felt the same in the P-38. The P-47 on the other hand I would have felt pretty hopeless due to the quirks of the P-47.

 

No aircraft should be flown low imo but some can be flown low and still be competitive.

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2 hours ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

If Im flying lets say a Yak or a La, I wouldn't care flying slow and low as much as I would care if I were flying an American, that's just me anyways, I feel "unsafe" flying murrican things, they are "delicate" and need to be flown very well to shine, while russian planes are "friendlier" for not very experienced players like me... IMO

 

1 hour ago, Legioneod said:

I'd agree with that. Certain American aircraft shouldn't be flown low (P-47 mostly) other aircraft like the P-38 and P-51 can be flown low and still have a decent ability to defend themselves.

I got in a fight with 3-4 190s (maybe more idk) yesterday on Combat Box. I was in a P-51 on the deck, I managed to down one of them and got hits on most of the others I think (not 100% sure). During that fight I never really felt outclassed or hopeless just because I was on the deck, I probably would have felt the same in the P-38. The P-47 on the other hand I would have felt pretty hopeless due to the quirks of the P-47.

 

No aircraft should be flown low imo but some can be flown low and still be competitive.

 

Ill start by saying that being low and slow, and dog fighting in general, are not ideally the situation you want to be in in any fighter. That being said....

 

You should not feel uncomfortable in a P-51 or P-38 down low in a dogfight. I am not really sure where you guys are getting this perception, especially that a P51 feels outclassed by a 190 of all things. A P-51 will out turn a 190 of any type EASILY at any altitude. Especially A models, but the D really isnt a challenge. It will out climb any A model, and climb with a D model if it has 150 octane fuel. Speed wise a P-51 is much faster than a A model and equal to D more or less (if not a bit faster on average).

 

Against a 109, the 150 octane mustang is at a slight disadvantage vs a K4 or G-14 in a sustained rate fight. It climbs well enough to keep with a 109 under most circumstances. The P-51 is also much easier to max perform than a 109 due to less felt torque and better trim controls. It also has a far superior flaps system that can definitely help you make up the tiny rare disadvantage and then some in most cases. You also have the G suit, and the Mustang hangs onto speed like a thrown brick. If you manage your G correctly, you will be around on a 109 (or at least gain alot of angles) before the fight ever gets into a sea level sustained rate fight (which is the only situation a 109 can really make this advantage stick).

 

Ive tested the 109K and 150 octane and non-150 octane P-51s since the patch came out in sustained turn rate at sea level so many times now my head spins just thinking about it. At 25% fuel vs a 50% fuel 109 (roughly equal in terms of endurance) the 150 grade mustang is so close to the 109K in turn rate that pilot skill determines the outcome 9.9 times out of ten. Even the 67inch P-51 will be down to skill 9 times out of ten.

 

 

 

The P-38 can give a spitfire or a yak a hard time if you make judicious use of flaps. So you should never feel exposed in a 38 if you have to brawl with someone.

 

 

 

Edited by [TLC]YIPPEE
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4 hours ago, [TLC]YIPPEE said:

 

 

Ill start by saying that being low and slow, and dog fighting in general, are not ideally the situation you want to be in in any fighter. That being said....

 

You should not feel uncomfortable in a P-51 or P-38 down low in a dogfight. I am not really sure where you guys are getting this perception, especially that a P51 feels outclassed by a 190 of all things. A P-51 will out turn a 190 of any type EASILY at any altitude. Especially A models, but the D really isnt a challenge. It will out climb any A model, and climb with a D model if it has 150 octane fuel. Speed wise a P-51 is much faster than a A model and equal to D more or less (if not a bit faster on average).

 

Against a 109, the 150 octane mustang is at a slight disadvantage vs a K4 or G-14 in a sustained rate fight. It climbs well enough to keep with a 109 under most circumstances. The P-51 is also much easier to max perform than a 109 due to less felt torque and better trim controls. It also has a far superior flaps system that can definitely help you make up the tiny rare disadvantage and then some in most cases. You also have the G suit, and the Mustang hangs onto speed like a thrown brick. If you manage your G correctly, you will be around on a 109 (or at least gain alot of angles) before the fight ever gets into a sea level sustained rate fight (which is the only situation a 109 can really make this advantage stick).

 

Ive tested the 109K and 150 octane and non-150 octane P-51s since the patch came out in sustained turn rate at sea level so many times now my head spins just thinking about it. At 25% fuel vs a 50% fuel 109 (roughly equal in terms of endurance) the 150 grade mustang is so close to the 109K in turn rate that pilot skill determines the outcome 9.9 times out of ten. Even the 67inch P-51 will be down to skill 9 times out of ten.

 

 

 

The P-38 can give a spitfire or a yak a hard time if you make judicious use of flaps. So you should never feel exposed in a 38 if you have to brawl with someone.

 

 

 

 

I never said I felt outclassed  when in the P-51 or P-38, they are both more than capable at low altitudes. The D9 is faster than the P-51 on the deck, at least in my experience. I've outrun 150 octane P-51s when in the D9, and the D9s have outrun me when on the deck.

Edited by Legioneod

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5 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

 

I never said I felt outclassed  when in the P-51 or P-38, they are both more than capable at low altitudes. The D9 is faster than the P-51 on the deck, at least in my experience. I've outrun 150 octane P-51s when in the D9, and the D9s have outrun me when on the deck.

I was quoting both of you and responding to various different bits. You did say you agreed with him on that quoted section, so i wasnt really sure what to make of all that.

 

Regarding D9 speed: Unless my memory is fogged I tested the P-51 to 379mph 150 octane and D9 to 361. Ill retest to make sure I am not mis-remembering. Ive chased down 190s and escaped from them in multiplayer, although it was a close run thing. At high altitudes the P-51 is faster.

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10 minutes ago, [TLC]YIPPEE said:

I was quoting both of you and responding to various different bits. You did say you agreed with him on that quoted section, so i wasnt really sure what to make of all that.

 

Regarding D9 speed: Unless my memory is fogged I tested the P-51 to 379mph 150 octane and D9 to 361. Ill retest to make sure I am not mis-remembering. Ive chased down 190s and escaped from them in multiplayer, although it was a close run thing. At high altitudes the P-51 is faster.

Higher altitude absolutely the P-51 is faster. I haven't been able to catch D9s on the deck though, even with 150 octane, I've also been able to outrun P-51s on the deck so idk.

In regards to my quote above I was agreeing with him that American aircraft tend to be a little less user friendly when compared to some of the Russian or German types.

Edited by Legioneod
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after using few of the techniques described above, i manage to slightly feel more confident in the P-38 in online. to sum up

* im now always flying above 10.000ft, (which is my minimum ceiling) usually between 15-20.000ft. Indeed, turbochargers at those altitudes showed all their potential, and seeing a 109s and 190s struggling at high AoA in my mirror, buffeting at the verge of stall, trying to shoot some lucky bullets are priceless.

* I, (thanks to Video mentionned above) took note of some reference speeds, and following them now allow me to exploit the P38 at its full extent. As per the reference video, i use :

- Vy 165 

- Best turning speed : 200 (with flaps, i can gain some nose authority if needed)

never under 200, and she handles like a charm.

very nice to discover all those special things. i just need to practice more my aim precision while Boom And Zooming.

I also find the 630 meters of convergence as reference way too short. feel weird to me, as i never manage to fly that close to have a good window of shooting at this distance.

i fly without labels, and with the zoomed out cockpit at its max, making my eye picture of the targets very small. what settings are you using for optimal dogfight in terms of view ? 

 

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7 minutes ago, Johnhil06 said:

I, (thanks to Video mentionned above) took note of some reference speeds, and following them now allow me to exploit the P38 at its full extent. As per the reference video, i use :

- Vy 165 

- Best turning speed : 200 (with flaps, i can gain some nose authority if needed)

never under 200, and she handles like a charm.

Best turn speed in a P-38 is not 200mph. You dont fly to a speed for sustained turns in ww2 prop planes. This is possible in jets because they have enough thrust to sustain best turn speed at or near corner speed. Props cant do this. All you need to do to max perform a P-38 or any other ww2 prop is pull the stick as hard as you can without stalling the plane. You will automatically drop in speed to whatever the best sustained turn speed is. For the 38 with is like 180-150mph depending on how much flap is down.

 

Actual corner speed on ww2 props only matters in situations where you have excess specific power in the form altitude to keep your speed up with a higher G. Corner speed for ww2 props tends to be around 6-7G at 270mph indicated. This will vary based on altitude and fuel weight. If you are in a descending nose to tail turn fight, attempt to maintain a high G load between 250-270mph by lowering the nose.

 

If you intentionally sustain 200mph in a P-38 you are going to be turning much worse than possible.

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from the data that i saw, at 10.000ft, 200mph IAS would be the best rate of turn resulting in a 12.7 degrees/ second. 

So you are telling me that a propeller aircraft cannot fly to a specific speed an maintain it in a sustained turn ? lol

I ll be more than happy to have accurate data reference about the reference speeds you are talking about.

Could you point me out the manual or publication where you get the info  that would be much appreciated.

While you mention to want to maintain a high G load on the aircraft, how would you measure that in the sim ? 

Correct me if im wrong but im not sure that i saw a G-meter on the cockpit. And i if some Bank / Speed / G load performance charts exists, i ll be more than happy to consult them in any manual.

Pulling abrubtly in the stick results for me in a too much important loss of speed, getting myself in the range of slow speeds, with flaps dragging, without any room to re-accelerate. in online. its plenty of time to get my ass kicked.

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1 hour ago, Johnhil06 said:

So you are telling me that a propeller aircraft cannot fly to a specific speed an maintain it in a sustained turn ? lol

You can fly a speed, but it wont give you the best rate. Best sustained rate on all ww2 planes is whatever you get when you ride the edge of a stall until thrust = drag. ww2 props cannot maintain a corner speed.

 

1 hour ago, Johnhil06 said:

I ll be more than happy to have accurate data reference about the reference speeds you are talking about.

There is corner data in some of the IRL flight manuals, feel free to google it.

 

1 hour ago, Johnhil06 said:

While you mention to want to maintain a high G load on the aircraft, how would you measure that in the sim ? 

By guesstimating base on blackout amount. 4.5-5G is about the most you can sustain in il2 IIRC

 

1 hour ago, Johnhil06 said:

Pulling abrubtly in the stick results for me in a too much important loss of speed, getting myself in the range of slow speeds, with flaps dragging, without any room to re-accelerate.

You dont want to arbitrarily hold on to speed. You want to be as close to corner until you run out of excess power due to altitude. Once your on the deck you want to crank the turn till you are on the edge of a stall and hold it. If you ease off the stick in a low speed turn fight you will be doing nothing but retarding your turn rate. The guy at 160mph will be around on you very fast.

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Nerd alert ...Ok you knew the charts were coming :)

 

Err lets be careful with terminology here. Corner Speed is Min speed for Structural G limit. Unless you prefix it with Sustained corner speed. Yes Jets are different to props in most cases the Ps=0 line in a jet is a totally different shape to that in a WWII piston aeroplane ... but the basics remain the same. Fan/Dog house plots are available for some WWII fighters (Spitfire and BF109E,Buffalo) for example. The interesting thing with WWII types is the Ps=0 line intersects the lift limit line at a fairly steep angle.... not generally the case in most jet types.

 

The Fan plot below for a Spit MKI. As can be seen by the Ps=0 line intersects the lift limit at 160mph TAS sustaining 2.6G with a turn time of around 19sec (18.9 deg sec rate).

The max sustained G occurs at around 210MPH TAS with 3G sustained for a turn time of 23secs (15.6 deg sec) ... so if you want Max rate pull to the lift limit at 160MPH if you want Max sustained G then pull to 3G (without a G meter :) at 220 mph.

 

Now assuming a 6G limit then Corner speed is at the intersection of the lift limit and the 6G curve ... at around 250MPH TAS getting a turn time of around 12secs or a rate of 30deg sec ... though bleeding energy like a stuck pig.

 

Spit-turn.jpg

So horses for courses Depends wether you want Max Sustained rate or Max sustained G ... or simply Max rate regardless of energy loss.... either way there is a best speed for all.

 

Now if you look at Jet Fan/Dog house plots you will see a very different relationship and shape between the lift limit line and the Ps-=0 contour... see the F5E/N Fan/dog house plot below

F5turn.jpg

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On 11/3/2019 at 5:32 AM, Johnhil06 said:

Hello chaps, 

im new to the sim, and pretty interested to master the P-38 in dogfight.

i know for a fact that the plane in the hands of good pilots could be very effective, as it allowed many aces to be born.

 

The P-38 allowed many aces to be born... in the Pacific and not in Europe

and they didn't turn there for sure, using mostly their extra speed advantage over japanese fighters

 

When McGuire (38 victories) and Rittmayer (12 v) met a plane as fast as them (the Ki-84), they died in the ensuing engagement. I think it was probably the first time they met the Ki-84 btw

 

On the Western front, it was easy target with his size because he was not faster than german fighters and as a result was withdrawn of fighter role before the end of war because it could not compete with lastest german designs.

In Europe, their most precious sucess was probably the death of german ace Walter Oesau in a 109 G6/AS on May 11th of 1944.

He fought 4 Lightning for 10 mn alone from high to treetop before being killed.

Otherwise P-38 pilots over ETO never had a bigger tally than P-47 and P-51 of course and was never much feared by LW pilots.

 

 

 

In game the P-38J we have as nothing to do with the Il2 1946 surpringsly

It turns in 20 seconds in BoS

when it did

in 26,01 sec for P-38J

in 27,27 sec for P-38L

in 25,75 sec for P-38 L late in 1946.

(Il2 compare date for 4.11)

 

Same with rate of climb with a maximum of 16,3 m/s in 1946 compared to the 20 m/s in BoS.

 

 

All of this allows the current P-38 to outurn all era axis fighters which i found quite unrealistic. Seems it was more realistic in 1946 honestly 😕

Sure the P-38 was turning great but for a twin-engined fighter only and it should not be able to outurn a late 109 for very long time because it is more twice more heavier, simple as that.

 

Edited by StaB/Tomio_VR***

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" Sure the P-38 was turning great but for a twin-engined fighter only and it should not be able to outurn a late 109 for very long time because it is more twice more heavier, simple as that. "

 

Turn performance is not just based on weight , Specific excess power is the true determinant of sustained turn performance.... and with a little bit of tweaking determines linear acceleration ... guess what US late war aeroplane had the best linear acceleration .... Clue "Americas 100,000 Page 604 ... the answer might surprise you. :)

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48 minutes ago, StaB/Tomio_VR*** said:

 

The P-38 allowed many aces to be born... in the Pacific and not in Europe

and they didn't turn there for sure, using mostly their extra speed advantage over japanese fighters

 

blah blah blah muh stats, blah blah blah muh realism

 

 

Stop comparing sim pilots to real pilots.

 

Real pilots fear for their life and don't have do overs. Sim pilots eventually learn how to handle their mounts and abuse that knowledge to the full potential without fear of death. 

 

I doubt you will find many seasoned LW or US pilots pulling mind numbingly stupid shit you see pulled DAILY on your average Call of Wings, Liberty of duty server. 

 

As for the airplane, yes, it has 2 engines and at lower speed it can out sustain tighter minimum speed turn than any other plane currently in game.

Its exactly same shit that 110 G-2 does, only better, and there is few 110 G-2 pilots (like XJammer) that will out dog fight with full flaps nearly anyone in totally ridiculous and unrealistic manner. 

Edited by Cpt_Siddy
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Did i compare sim to real pilots ?

What is true in WW2 remain somewhat true in our sim...

 

32 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

Real pilots fear for their life and don't have do overs.

Of course they can. When P-38 appearead in the Solomons in Feb 43, their pilots started to turn, losing few of them against Zeros before learning how to use better tactics...

McGuire died because he tried to engage a lonely Ki-43 in a turnfight. Need more ?

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4 minutes ago, StaB/Tomio_VR*** said:

Need more ?

 

Actual technical reasons why P-38 should not preform as it does preform currently in IL-2 could be a good start. 

 

So far you have presented pilot mistakes and old IL2 as a proof. I too, can dig up an anecdote where P-38 outmaneuvered multiple 109's by using differential throttle. This tells me nothing on actual physics of why P-38 is not preforming as it should. 

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Not doubting anyone assertions in here...I am curious how this battle really turned out...seems there was a lot of disinformation from both sides after this incident.  It at least gives a baseline for the P-38 vs Yaks.  I only recently discovered this gem of a story.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_battle_over_Niš

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9 hours ago, Legioneod said:

I haven't been able to catch D9s on the deck though, even with 150 octane, I've also been able to outrun P-51s on the deck so idk.

In regards to my quote above I was agreeing with him that American aircraft tend to be a little less user friendly when compared to some of the Russian or German types.

 

The P-51 is faster than the D-9 with 150 oct fuel at nearly all altitudes (except just for a bit after switching to 2nd supercharger gear). What could be happening is the D-9 out-accelerating the P-51, which is expected. The P-51 is really fast because of low drag but the lowish power to weight ratio means it will take longer to reach to that speed compared to a Bf 109 or Fw 190D.

 

3 hours ago, StaB/Tomio_VR*** said:

In game the P-38J we have as nothing to do with the Il2 1946 surpringsly

It turns in 20 seconds in BoS

when it did

in 26,01 sec for P-38J

in 27,27 sec for P-38L

in 25,75 sec for P-38 L late in 1946.

(Il2 compare date for 4.11)

 

Same with rate of climb with a maximum of 16,3 m/s in 1946 compared to the 20 m/s in BoS.

 

 

All of this allows the current P-38 to outurn all era axis fighters which i found quite unrealistic. Seems it was more realistic in 1946 honestly 😕

Sure the P-38 was turning great but for a twin-engined fighter only and it should not be able to outurn a late 109 for very long time because it is more twice more heavier, simple as that.

 


Well 16 m/s is too low for the P-38J, for 60" at 3000 RPM, it should be 20 m/s and that with a fair bit of fuel. Without flaps the K-4 turns more or less equal and the G-14 a bit better, with flaps it does turn better than them. If anyone could find real turn time data it would be good to compare.

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