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Hardly anyone outside of history enthusiasts give a [edited] about Italy.  Most people nowadays don't even know who fought there or why.  Those who somehow do pretty much know it (incorrectly) as a side show to D-Day.  Let alone know jack about any of the cool or beautiful aircraft that fought there.

 

Maybe they'll take it as an opportunity to learn about it; or maybe they'll just give it a pass.

 

I would go with a pacific expansion for the simple reason that every idiot knows about the Americans fighting Japan in WW2.  People who might be interested in flight sims and history, but just don't know it yet.  The community around these games is so damn old.  It might be worth extending a branch to the next generation, rather than expecting everyone who might be into this genre be interested in the esoteric details or every niche theatre of operations.  Go with something well known and recognizable to a wide audience, regardless of how dumb that audience may seem to you.

 

And yeah, go ahead and flame away.  I won't give a damn.  :)

Edited by SYN_Haashashin
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2 minutes ago, J28w-Broccoli said:

Hardly anyone outside of history enthusiasts give a shit about Italy. 

 

I just got out of a Bodenplatte enthusiast meeting at my local bar.  But anywho, you could use that argument against almost any WW2 battle.  The point isn’t the location.  The point is the aircraft.  And some pretty cool aircraft were flown over Italy.

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How many people know about the Re 2005 or MC205?

 

How many know about the Zero?  What about the Corsair?

Edited by J28w-Broccoli

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14 minutes ago, J28w-Broccoli said:

Hardly anyone outside of history enthusiasts give a shit about Italy. 

When it comes to Italian aircraft you may be right. But I think Italy should make for a nice looking map. Lot's of hilly country and lot's of coastline - much like the Kuban map. And that one is a beauty.

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5 minutes ago, Gretsch_Man said:

When it comes to Italian aircraft you may be right. But I think Italy should make for a nice looking map. Lot's of hilly country and lot's of coastline - much like the Kuban map. And that one is a beauty.

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree; and I know the devs would do all they could to do it justice.

Edited by J28w-Broccoli

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14 minutes ago, J28w-Broccoli said:

How many people know about the Re 2005 or MC205?

 

How many know about the Zero?  What about the Corsair?

 

How about P-51,  P-47?  They flew over Italy.  And I guarantee that they’d sell.  

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How popular was that 109 F2?

 

Though your point is well taken.  Seeing the numbers on CombatBoX compared to WoL these days should put the nail in any ideas of going back to the eastern front for the time being.  So at least we can agree on that.  :)

Edited by J28w-Broccoli

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@J28w-Broccoli In the case of Italy, it would be less about building hype around the Italian campaign than it would be able earlier Allied aircraft and a new theater people haven't seen before. As I recall, the other WWII game had a very successful Italian front launch, I'm large part because it was novel and brought new and unique maps to the table. 

 

Recall few people in the west were familiar with the Eastern Front, yet the original Il-2 essentially brought the entire genre back from the dead. People will fly flight sims that are both good and novel, even if they do not know the theater very well. 

 

That said, the original Il-2 came out after years of PTO and European Theater WWII flight sims, barely a year after Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator II covered the PTO extensively. Here, there is a hunger for the Pacific, the USAAF, the USN and the RAF that has not been well filled for some time. 

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1 hour ago, J28w-Broccoli said:

Most people nowadays don't even know who fought there or why.

Why do we have to adjust to people that have no clue about WWII other than D-Day or whatever Hollywood cares to make film about? Even War Thunder has a lot of planes that some people here will find not interesting, although War Thunder is a mass product. War Thunder has bunch of sea planes, mid 30s biplanes, Italian planes, French planes, etc and I can see that people actually fly them. Why people think that IL-2 audience that is more educated that the audience of WT won't buy those modules? Do you think people that play IL-2 are dumber?

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Inter-war seaplane expansion it is then- for the low low price of $80.

 

I'll be happy for the hobby when I'm proven wrong, and it's a huge success.

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29 minutes ago, J28w-Broccoli said:

How popular was that 109 F2?

 

Though your point is well taken.  Seeing the numbers on CombatBoX compared to WoL these days should put the nail in any ideas of going back to the eastern front for the time being.  So at least we can agree on that.  :)

East front is still popular online, your comparing apples and oranges here, WoL shows only active players in 7 days, like its by default, while other servers changed that number to show all players in month. You can make stats show what you need them to show. Look at players per missions to see that east front is as popular as before, what finaly having good allied airplanes for west front did is it make more players who were bored with it to play again. 

 

And Italy front is good option as its not agan 109+190 combo and it gives interesting map areas, but next one is Midway so its Zeros vs Wildcats for the win :)

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I just go by the numbers I see when I look at the server list...pretty much most times of the day.  Only time WoL seems to fill up now is when CombatBoX is already full.

Edited by J28w-Broccoli

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41 minutes ago, J28w-Broccoli said:

Though your point is well taken.  Seeing the numbers on CombatBoX compared to WoL these days should put the nail in any ideas of going back to the eastern front for the time being.  So at least we can agree on that.  :)

 

We're absolutely getting late war VVS aircraft at some point.  And they'll be popular. 

 

The problem with WoL isn't the eastern front, the problem is that the aircraft, especially the fighters, on the German side are clearly superior.  So the sides are almost always stacked German.  Evenly matched aircraft will make for much more popular missions.

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7 minutes ago, J28w-Broccoli said:

I just go by the numbers I see when I look at the server list...pretty much most times of the day.  Only time WoL seems to fill up now is when CombatBoX is already full.

= more players online, not east front is not popular, when p-51 tempest and p-38 come out i could see few weeks 2-3 servers full, and WoL was not even having new airplanes.

Thing that changed is players who didnt like east front have options now, same is with east front guys who dont like west front, they wil continue to play east front stuff and if Devs dont fined way to sell them some stuff they wont buy west front or pto stuff, hence Yak-9s as collectable and also future East front DLCs for sure, game has to have east and west, Bom Bos and Bok show that staying on one side is bad, bobp shows that its good to cover whole war and give everyone options. So its time now for PTO, and expand base even more, like bobp did.

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6 minutes ago, J28w-Broccoli said:

Can't get much more evenly matched than Midway Zero vs Wildcat.

 

Not really.  Zero is faster, climbs better and turns better.    The Wildcat dives better.  That's great for running way, but not much else.

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Well, BoBP has finally officially been released. Would be good to get some sort of indication where this franchise is heading. As you know, we gamers are an impatient bunch! I think its more the 'well I can stop guessing now and focus my attention on a specific area' rather than the PTO vs ETO vs WTO arguments. 

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The reason certain planes are so popular is the primary reason why I don't want to see them. Because chances are they have been done a million times.

 

Your lucky I'm not developing Il-2. You'd all be fighting in the Spanish Civil War, the Invasion of Poland or the Sino-Japanese war, with not a single P-51 or Spitfire in sight, (and wouldn't have made it past the first expansion as a result). The reason I want these obscure theaters is because I want to learn more about them. What they looked and sounded like. What was the situation in that battle? Who's planes were superior? What planes did each side even have? 

 

Warsaw-Pursuit-Brigade-1939-Polish-Air-Force.jpg b6c207086343347432fc409f7f8ccc0b.jpg

 

Sad truth is probably nobody would buy into it. People would rather fly yet another iteration of the Mustang, with their minds and interests closed to anything off the beaten path.

 

The only reason I want the Pacific Theater is the Japanese aircraft. More specifically the B5N and the F1M. Don't really care about the American planes. Because again, we have seen them a million times before. Everybody knows about them. Its the stuff people don't know about that I want to see. Stuff I don't know much about. 

 

kate-735x413.png 3bba87b3aadb4bd02e4da7c5174a4dd3.jpg

 

Yes I'm aware this isn't how the world works. Doesn't mean I have to like it. I just want to see something that hasn't been done before.

 

Hell, there is even stuff in the WWI theater that I still haven't seen that doesn't exist anywhere else...

 

d1d3ee84ecd00acdd15201690bcc160c.jpg

 

Chances ever seeing that? Ever? Zero. And it makes me sad. 😔

Edited by Motherbrain
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27 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

Not really.  Zero is faster, climbs better and turns better.    The Wildcat dives better.  That's great for running way, but not much else.

 

You're smart enough to know there's more to it than that, but sure buddy.  

 

I mean, you'll buy it anyways so it's not like choice of theatre or included aircraft matters for you to begin with.

Edited by J28w-Broccoli

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2 minutes ago, Motherbrain said:

Your lucky I'm not developing Il-2.

 

Actually, the person financing your disaster is the lucky one.

1 minute ago, J28w-Broccoli said:

 

You're smart enough to know there's more to it than that, but sure buddy.  

 

And you're smart enough to know that the Wildcat wasn't really an even match for the Zero.

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5 minutes ago, Motherbrain said:

Your lucky I'm not developing Il-2. You'd all be fighting in the Spanish Civil War, the Invasion of Poland or the Sino-Japanese war, with not a single P-51 or Spitfire in sight, (and wouldn't have made it past the first expansion as a result).

 

You wouldn't have made it to the beginning of your first expansion, let alone past it because no investor would ever back such a project.

Also, you haven't seen ANYTHING a million times before, or even once before in a modern engine/environment such as this.

 

Otherwise following your logic we can just say we had a Mustang in the old Chuck Yeager sim, so it's old hat and decide we don't need to see it again.

The point is getting these aircraft in a more advanced simulator...otherwise we can just boot up the old IL2....right? 

 

With you on the Japanese aircraft though...especially the float planes.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

Actually, the person financing your disaster is the lucky one.

 

Do you ever have anything nice to say to anybody? Honest question?

 

I said multiple times my fantasy wouldn't work. I know that.

 

@Gambit21 "You wouldn't have made it to the beginning of your first expansion, let alone past it because no investor would ever back such a project".

 

Yes and I'm saddened that that is the case.

Edited by Motherbrain

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2 minutes ago, Motherbrain said:

 

Do you ever have anything nice to say to anybody? Honest question?

 

I said multiple times my fantasy wouldn't work. I know that.

 

It's ok to have fantasies.

Mine is the Emily....'sigh'

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Just now, Motherbrain said:

 

Do you ever have anything nice to say to anybody? Honest question?

 

I said multiple times my fantasy wouldn't work. I know that.

 

Sorry, you can also learn about those things by reading books.  You don't have to learn by destroying combat flight sims.

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6 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

It's ok to have fantasies.

Mine is the Emily....'sigh'

 

I want Judy.

Edited by J28w-Broccoli

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18 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

You don't have to learn by destroying combat flight sims.

 

The fact that you think that doing more obscure theaters like the Spanish Civil War is "destroying flight sims" as basically exactly the problem I'm talking about. I don't think it would.

 

With that thinking, WWI would be taboo. After all, that's obscure isn't it? Nobody cares about that right? Except it isn't any more, thanks to Rise of Flight, Battlefield 1, Verdun, and now Flying Circus. We're lucky we even have that. The more you do them, the more people learn about them, the more people have the chance to become interested in something they would have otherwise never heard of.

 

@Gambit21 What flight sim doesn't have a Mustang or a Spitfire? Il-2 1946, Il-2 Birds of Steel, Warthunder, Combat Flight Simulator, Combat Flight Simulator3,

DCS, Il-2GB, Warbirds, Warbirds3, Janes Attack Squadron, all sims I've played that have them. 

 

What sim has a single WWII Polish plane? Maybe Il-2 1946 with BAT mods. Maybe Warthunder at some point if you enjoy self inflected harm.

Edited by Motherbrain

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Just now, Motherbrain said:

 

The fact that you think that doing more obscure theaters like the Spanish Civil War is "destroying flight sims" as basically exactly the problem I'm talking about. I don't think it would.

 

With that thinking, WWI would be taboo. After all, that's obscure isn't it? Nobody cares about that right? Except it isn't any more, thanks to Rise of Flight, Battlefield 1, Verdun, and Flying Circus. The more you do them, the more people learn about them, the more people have the chance to become interested in something they would have otherwise never heard of.

 

It absolutely would.  WW1 is not nearly as obscure as the SCW, and 777 dumped it as soon as the possibility of doing a WW2 sim opened up.  Even then they had to do a module with iconic aircraft because, after 3 Eastern Front modules,  they desperately needed money.

 

But, by all means, prove me wrong by developing a WW1 flight sim.  You won't have much competition. 

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10 minutes ago, Motherbrain said:

The more you do them, the more people learn about them, the more people have the chance to become interested in something they would have otherwise never heard of.

 

While this is true, there are certain aircraft which have captured a place in the collective psyche; and if you're investing in a flight sim, you're likely to get a much better return on investment by including them.  No matter how fascinating the license-built chinese interwar seaplanes might be.  Which is why we'll probably never see stuff like that.

 

I'll play it if by some weird twist you find yourself in position to make it though.  ;)

Edited by J28w-Broccoli

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Many thanks to all of you. I've read your interventions, sure I've read them, and I thank you for your Wise comments.

 

 

Italy deserves a "Great Battles" module, of course it does, and it is sufficiently popular, just think about the 1947-released  "Thunderbolt" film, filmed in action in Italy by William Wyler… BUT... that's not the point as so many theatres of operations deserve to be played in the game... The point is that during WWII, the world conflict was mainly occuring in two large-scale areas in the planet: Europe/Africa and… the Pacific. Only one of those two is being developed for now… and this is unbalanced, besides that it is unfair. The classic "IL-2 Sturmovik" was first released in 2001... and only two years after that, a free patch was released allowing the players to fly Zeroes and Wildcats in a fictional archipelago (ferociously looking like Rabaul bay). That was smart, and "Pacific Fighters" (in 2004) was a commercial success. In 2006, the "1946" complete edition reunited all maps and aircraft and, again, it was a commercial success too.

 

Motherbrain said :

 

"The only reason I want the Pacific Theater is the Japanese aircraft. More specifically the B5N and the F1M. Don't really care about the American planes. Because again, we have seen them a million times before…"

 

 

This is why I suggested a "Battle of France" module. Spain (1936-1939), Poland (1939), France (1940) or Italy (1943-1945) would be lovely, but all of them, AGAIN, are in Europe… What about the Pacific?

 

 

Dealing with the Wildcat-Zero duel… By the end of 1942, American Wildcat pilots had already learned how to overcome a Zero: boom and zoom.

 

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4 minutes ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

This is why I suggested a "Battle of France" module. Spain (1936-1939), Poland (1939), France (1940) or Italy (1943-1945) would be lovely, but all of them, AGAIN, are in Europe… What about the Pacific?

 

I'm very happy we might get the Pacific at some point. We're lucky there is even a possibility we are getting it. Who knows.

 

The next expansion hasn't been announced yet.

Edited by Motherbrain

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As a matter of fact: let's talk about sister ships...

 

1 Akagi

2. Kaga

3. Zuikaku

4. Shokaku

5. Hiryu

6. Soryu

 

How many carriers do the developers have to model if they want to include in a future PTO module the above six mentioned carriers? Six? NO… ontly three ships would need to be 3D-modelled, as the devs only need to model three hulls and, after that, introduce minor changes in the superstructure so that they can obtain one specific ship out of the six noted in the above list.

 

And the same procedure should be applied to American flat tops...

 

Am I wrong? Am I right?

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48 minutes ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

Italy deserves a "Great Battles" module,

Absolutely. It seemed weird to me starting up the Bodenplatte Career (P.S. I know it's Rhineland) with just 2 British planes and 3 American planes. We need more planes for Bodenplatte, not  necessarily bombers, but Allied planes available in mid-late 1944 like the Razorback, P-51C, Mosquito, etc.

 

I feel that a latter 1944-45 for Italy should happen after Bodenplatte, from the Gothic Line to the 1945 Spring Offensive. Like Bodenplatte it hasn't been done before and it would be fun.

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4 hours ago, Motherbrain said:

The fact that you think that doing more obscure theaters like the Spanish Civil War is "destroying flight sims" as basically exactly the problem I'm talking about. I don't think it would.

 

Interesting discussion on obscure theaters.  I’ve never been interested in the Spanish Civil War for example. Can’t turn the page fast enough whenever I see it.  But if an SCW sim ever came out and the gameplay experience was immersive, well crafted and properly entertaining - I’d buy it immediately.   

 

By the same token; if a sim came out and offered a swag of iconic aircraft in a famous historical setting, with a half arsed SP gameplay experience...  it would be nice try, no buy. 

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I don't people give a whole lot of credit for fans of combat sims. Generally, people are knowledgeable about history. If they have an interest in aviation history and WW2 history, they will show an interest in different theaters. People too often assume that "they" are the only one that will care, but simply is a false assumption. Now, if we are talking about people who simply into gaming, then you might have a point, but those are the sort of people you wouldn't want to interact with anyway. That being said, we cannot assume if they come for one reason, that they will not develop a strong interest on their own. This is especially true if they are already playing the series. They may not think they will enjoy it, but when they get downn to it, they will want to play it and they most likely learn the history if they already learned the history of the other theaters. 

 

If I am going to be honest; I knew about the Eastern front only on the ground level. I vaguely heard of the Yak and I know of the Mig because it predecessors. I didn't know what an IL2 when I first saw the name. When I was playing RoF I complained that there was a lack of an Eastern and Southern front. So, I would welcome an Italian or Greek Front and would find a North Africa an intriguing front. I would also like to see an early war front for some French plane sets. WWI to WWII  and the intervening years is an intriguing time period from a military to a diplomatic standpoint. How cool would it be to include some WWI tanks in Tank Crew? LOL, half ot he play through would most likely end with a broken tank! LOL 

 

 

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There are some other aspects rather than history regarding theatres.

There are ppl out there preferring tech and gameplay over history or planeset.

 

PTO being my favourite theatre is related to gameplay and it's enviroment while pto planes are last i would pick from ww2 regarding beauty and performance (don't like them at all, except Cathy 😁).

 

•Enviroment:

-tropical islands and open sea.

 

•Gameplay and tech:

-carrier takeoff/landings

-torpedo tech (diving down with right speed and alt, dropping torpedo and watching it travel toward carrier/destroyer and than booom....priceless)

-naval operations in general:flying over open sea and searching for ships/fleet, destroying ships...etc.

-navigation challenge

 

From same reason i love BoB, channel map where you need to fly over it, bomb/dogfight and safely return home over channel, and i like BoB planeset.

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10 hours ago, J28w-Broccoli said:

Hardly anyone outside of history enthusiasts give a shit about Italy.  Most people nowadays don't even know who fought there or why.  Those who somehow do pretty much know it (incorrectly) as a side show to D-Day.  Let alone know jack about any of the cool or beautiful aircraft that fought there.

 

Maybe they'll take it as an opportunity to learn about it; or maybe they'll just give it a pass.

 

I would go with a pacific expansion for the simple reason that every idiot knows about the Americans fighting Japan in WW2.  People who might be interested in flight sims and history, but just don't know it yet.  The community around these games is so damn old.  It might be worth extending a branch to the next generation, rather than expecting everyone who might be into this genre be interested in the esoteric details or every niche theatre of operations.  Go with something well known and recognizable to a wide audience, regardless of how dumb that audience may seem to you.

 

And yeah, go ahead and flame away.  I won't give a damn.  :)

 

So, what's the point of having a discussion on a forum then ?... Really, I do not understand why the subject of the PTO being the next installment is touchy to the point that we need to be rude.

 

I do agree with you about exposure in popular culture. Flight sims are always going to be a niche market but the popularity if a subject is highly subjective. You're likely assuming that everyone here, beong on an English language forum, is American or British (Commonwealth) and familiar with the PTO. Discarding history enthusiasts such as ourselves, across countries on the eastern side of the former Iron Curtain (and I'm not talking about ex-Soviet republic) the PTO would be as unknown as the air war in the East is to the general Westen public. Would French or Italians be as interested in the PTO than, say, Battle of France or Battle of Italy?

 

Trust me, I understand you want something close to our heart. I would love to someday see an expansion based on the 15th USAAF's strategic bombing campaign in the Balkans between 1943-45 even though the chances of that are practically null - from that point of view, I should prefer an Italian setting as that would at least allow one day to mod it like in the old Il-2 1946 - and I don't.

 

 Unless it's backed up by sales figures, I would be very hesitant to tell which setting is most popular. Far more than any other flight simiulator, the Il-2 series were widely known and highly regarded in my country, even though it never fought on the Eastern Front against the Soviets. I myself know very little about the CBI theater yet it sounds very interesting to me. And so on.

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12 hours ago, J28w-Broccoli said:

Hardly anyone outside of history enthusiasts give a [edited] about Italy.  Most people nowadays don't even know who fought there or why.  Those who somehow do pretty much know it (incorrectly) as a side show to D-Day.  Let alone know jack about any of the cool or beautiful aircraft that fought there...

 

 

In fact the logical sequel of BoBP should be Italy. The invasion of mainland Europe via its soft underbelly. A sideshow? Not at all. The theatre served as a big training camp for many of the aerial weapons and techniques that were later needed for “Overlord” and the conquest of Germany. Some of this techniques are commonplace even today.

 

 

9 hours ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

Italy deserves a "Great Battles" module, of course it does, and it is sufficiently popular, just think about the 1947-released  "Thunderbolt" film, filmed in action in Italy by William Wyler… 

 

and do not forget:

Red Tails (US movie 2012 with Cuba Gooding Jr.) first P-40 and then P-51

Malta Story (1953 with Alec Guinness) based on the legendary reco pilot Adrian Warburton

Catch-22 (US movie 1970 with Mike Nichols) B-25

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Have to admit I would really enjoy another visit to PTO. Pacific Fighters I think was the last one I can remember. Give me some of that early carrier action :)

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