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Erla Hood/Longer Tail/As Engine for G-6/G-14

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3 minutes ago, sevenless said:

 

Very interesting. Which puplication are those pics from?

An excellent book,  with lots of colour profiles, information on camouflage patterns and drawings of production variations: that said, some of the production figures are off - AFAIK, the most accurate production figures for all 109s can be found in Peter Schmoll's ME 109: Produktion und Einsatz

109g-021.jpg

109g-012.jpg

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On 11/1/2019 at 1:29 PM, sevenless said:

 

It would only make sense if they plan to release a early/mid 44 game module, because the G-14 was introduced IIRC in August 44.

 

On another topic I have a literature question for the participants of this thread:

 

For everything Fw-190 we have Peter Rodeicke and the Smith and Creek publications. Is there something comparably authoritive available for the Bf-109 ?

There's nothing as authoritative or comprehensive on the Bf 109s as Smith & Creek's books on the Fw 190 - yet. Jean Claude Mermet's book has already been mentioned by DB605, and I have I have cited Peter Schmoll's book. There's also [url=https://www.amazon.com/Messerschmitt-Bf-109/dp/3862452638] Messerschmitt Bf 109: Vom Prototyp bis zur Bf 109 K[/url] which is worth considering, plus the publishers Valiant Wings have brought out two books, albeit they are now 'out of production'... [url=https://www.valiant-wings.co.uk/airframe--miniature-no5-33-p.asp] Airframe & Miniature No.5: The Messerschmitt Bf 109 - Early Series (V1 to E9 including the T-series)[/url] and Airframe & Miniature No.11: The Bf 109– Late Series (F to K including the Z Series)

Edited by NZTyphoon
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55 minutes ago, NZTyphoon said:

An excellent book,  with lots of colour profiles, information on camouflage patterns and drawings of production variations: that said, some of the production figures are off - AFAIK, the most accurate production figures for all 109s can be found in Peter Schmoll's ME 109: Produktion und Einsatz

 

Thanks both ordered. The Wotowski book is even available on kindle. Great suggestions. Thanks!

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Here are some photos of the 109G-14 Wnr 413601 of 8./JG1 that was shot down by flak on July 22 1944, plus a colour profile: it was shipped to Farnborough and given the A/M serial number AM229, although it was never brought back to flying condition.C7XTQcbVwAA2WAs.jpg.222bb1a3594445b04ec1f520e3d9de99.jpg

0ecae9bffcccc22426441be77cd4ceda.jpg

sfY6Q55.png

Messerschmitt-Bf-109G14R3-Erla-8.JG1-Black-7-Jakob-Vogel-WNr-413601-Normandie-France-July-1944-0A.jpg

Edited by NZTyphoon
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1 hour ago, sevenless said:

 

Thanks both ordered. The Wotowski book is even available on kindle. Great suggestions. Thanks!


I would stay clear of Franks, he is a serial author with two dozen books to his name on every possible subject there is, and in case of the 109 he seems to be ill-informed to say at least (inventing types that never existed, misunderstanding types that did). Wotowski is probably the same though I give him the benefit of doubt.  In any case these like many others, especially in popular modeling books are just tertiary authors - copying books of several respected authors before and often doing a poor job with the transcription, and coherence - and for the real thing you need guys who did the primary research themselves. The more popular (cheaper) authors have little to no primary research done by themselves as they make money from volume and not quality, which leads to repeating/creating mistakes.

 

When it comes to 109s, Prien / Rodeike is still by far the most reliable book overall, Radinger / Otto is also very well researched and perhaps more technical. Janda and Poruba’s work on late 109s (K-4, G10) is one of the best and most recent, with good blend of development, production, technical and operational history. Mermet is great for identification. 
 

Most of what they write I could confirm directly from primary sources, which is something to value in the age of control C control V ‘experts’. ;) 

 

Schmoll is good on production and Regensburg factory history but he is a bit thin on technical details. A good supplementary book if you want to learn on production details, Radinger / Otto already covers most of it.
 

 

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8 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:


I would stay clear of Franks, he is a serial author with two dozen books to his name on every possible subject there is, and in case of the 109 he seems to be ill-informed to say at least (inventing types that never existed, misunderstanding types that did). Wotowski is probably the same though I give him the benefit of doubt.  In any case these like many others, especially in popular modeling books are just tertiary authors - copying books of several respected authors before and often doing a poor job with the transcription, and coherence - and for the real thing you need guys who did the primary research themselves. The more popular (cheaper) authors have little to no primary research done by themselves as they make money from volume and not quality, which leads to repeating/creating mistakes.

 

 

 

 

 

That is unfortunately true, however Wotowskis book is focused to colors and it's worth of money for the profiles in my opinion, even they might have bit more "colorful" (literally) sometimes than other authors ;) But late war paint jobs were mess anyway so who knows.

 

It is kinda sad that to have good and accurate overall picture of 109 production and up to date details you really need them all, there is no single definitive book for it.

 

-Prien / Rodeike

-Radinger / Otto

-Janda and Poruba (JaPo publishing)

-J-C Mermet

 

For finnish speakers/readers there is also excellent Hannu Valtonen's book "Messerschmitt Bf 109 ja saksan sotatalous" ("109 and german war economy")

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2 hours ago, DB605 said:

 

That is unfortunately true, however Wotowskis book is focused to colors and it's worth of money for the profiles in my opinion, even they might have bit more "colorful" (literally) sometimes than other authors ;) But late war paint jobs were mess anyway so who knows.

 

It is kinda sad that to have good and accurate overall picture of 109 production and up to date details you really need them all, there is no single definitive book for it.

 

-Prien / Rodeike

-Radinger / Otto

-Janda and Poruba (JaPo publishing)

-J-C Mermet

 

For finnish speakers/readers there is also excellent Hannu Valtonen's book "Messerschmitt Bf 109 ja saksan sotatalous" ("109 and german war economy")

Jochen Prien has often been asked whether he'll publish an updated edition of his F G & K book, but unfortunately it looks like that will never happen.

There was an Olivier Lefebvre - aka butch2k on various aviation websites and forums - who was considered to be an expert on the Bf 109 because he had/has a huge library of primary source material on the 109. Apparently, some years ago he planned to write a comprehensive book on the Bf 109: sadly, nothing ever came of that project and he just seemed to lose all interest in being involved with aviation forums. Olivier is still active (eg: https://www.deviantart.com/butch2k  ), but has no obvious interest in the Bf 109.

Edited by NZTyphoon
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1 hour ago, NZTyphoon said:

Jochen Prien has often been asked whether he'll publish an updated edition of his F G & K book, but unfortunately it looks like that will never happen.

 

That's probably because his "Jagdfliegerverbände" series has priority and is currently taking all his available time.

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17 hours ago, NZTyphoon said:

Here are some photos of the 109G-14 Wnr 413601 of 8./JG1 that was shot down by flak on July 22 1944, plus a colour profile: it was shipped to Farnborough and given the A/M serial number AM229, although it was never brought back to flying condition.

 

Prien/Rodeike allocate this serial number to G-6 built by Erla and 8./JG1 had no G-14's on roster in July 1944.

 

Why would it be a G-14?

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3 hours ago, AndytotheD said:

So if not a late model G-6, what would a G-10 offer between the G-14 and K-4?

 

The engine performance of the DB 605 DB/DC would be available to the G-10 and the engine performance of the ASB and/or ASC would be available to the G-14/AS.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimler-Benz_DB_605

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On 11/4/2019 at 6:17 AM, JtD said:

 

Prien/Rodeike allocate this serial number to G-6 built by Erla and 8./JG1 had no G-14's on roster in July 1944.

 

Why would it be a G-14?

We've been told (below) that a British report describes the captured 109 as a G-14 but, seeing as 8./JG 1 had no G-14s on roster, it is possible that the report was mistaken and that it was a G-6/U-2 fitted with MW50.

 

Edited by NZTyphoon
G-6/U2
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4 hours ago, sevenless said:

 

The engine performance of the DB 605 DB/DC would be available to the G-10 and the engine performance of the ASB and/or ASC would be available to the G-14/AS.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimler-Benz_DB_605

Still, the G6late had g14/as equipment available some time before the g14 became a thing. Makes sence for Lw in earlier war scenarios.

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49 minutes ago, Mac_Messer said:

Still, the G6late had g14/as equipment available some time before the g14 became a thing. Makes sence for Lw in earlier war scenarios.

 

They could sell the G14 model with an G6 engine and call it a G6 late to fill the timeframe 9/43 - 8/44 but I doubt they will do that. And if they rework the existing G6 3D-modell to include the Erla and large tail, who knows that? G6/AS or G14/AS would make more sense in game terms. Best would be a unified G6/AS - G14/AS - G10 module with one 3D model and 3 engine mods.

Edited by sevenless
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13 hours ago, DB605 said:

-Prien / Rodeike

-Radinger / Otto

-Janda and Poruba (JaPo publishing)

-J-C Mermet

 

 

@DB605 and @VO101Kurfurst

 

Thanks: Prien/Rodeike and Radinger/Otto added to my ToDo List.

 

I will stay clear of JaPo and Mermet, because there are silly prices on Amazon for them.

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1 hour ago, sevenless said:

 

@DB605 and @VO101Kurfurst

 

Thanks: Prien/Rodeike and Radinger/Otto added to my ToDo List.

 

I will stay clear of JaPo and Mermet, because there are silly prices on Amazon for them.

Ignore Amazon: I bought Mermet's book direct from the publishers.

The best place from which to buy Prien & Rodieke & Radinger & Otto is the Book Depository

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I can highly recommend the following two books on the Bf109.

 

Vogt Messerschmitt Bf 109 Versuchs Erprobungsträger Weg zur Serienproduktion

 

Vogt Messerschmitt Bf 109 Einsatzmaschinen - Das Nachschlagwerk Luftfahrt

 

22 hours ago, AndytotheD said:

So if not a late model G-6, what would a G-10 offer between the G-14 and K-4?

 

Think of it as a K-4 that's 70kg lighter but 20-25kmh slower at all altitudes due to the lack of a fully rectractable tail wheel, wheel covers etc. Could fit either a 20mm MG 151/20 or 30mm Mk 108 just like the G-14. It was basically an attempt to mate K-series performance with G-series airframes on existing production lanes.

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23 hours ago, sevenless said:

 

@DB605 and @VO101Kurfurst

 

Thanks: Prien/Rodeike and Radinger/Otto added to my ToDo List.

 

I will stay clear of JaPo and Mermet, because there are silly prices on Amazon for them.

Just for interest, I have found an online copy of the Radinger/Otto book: https://issuu.com/joete6/docs/messerschmitt_bf109f-k_-_radinger-w

IMO, it is a disappointingly random mish-mash of transcribed documents for about the first 50 pages, after which it is 100 odd pages of mostly previously published photos of 109Fs, Gs & Ks, Bf 209s and Me 309s, along with some GA drawings and information on Bf 109 wheels. There are better, more informative books available.

Edited by NZTyphoon
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On 11/2/2019 at 10:50 PM, NZTyphoon said:

AFAIK, the most accurate production figures for all 109s can be found in Peter Schmoll's ME 109: Produktion und Einsatz

 

Thanks again. My copy arrived today. Great book with an incredible wealth of information about 109 development and production. I really can recommend that book to everone interested in this plane. Also there is some very interesting information about the Messerschitt Museum in Manching included. Home to the last DB 605 D driven 109 G-10 "Haenschen" and DB 605 B driven 109 G-6 "Fritzchen" and DB 605 A driven 109 G-4 "Red 7".

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In career mode, when a G-14 gets replaced, an image of a G-14/AS is used. 

 

Edit 1: Picture

 

Edit 2: I've also read that this is a G-10

 

G-14AS replacement.jpg

Edited by AndytotheD
Added additional information
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As we have the G6 available in the Bodenplatte career I would not mind to see it updated with a Defence of the Reich default skin and an optional Erla canopy for 1944 operations. I would leave other modifications out as to keep it distinct from the G-14 and to keep space for eventual new 109 models in future update...

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13 hours ago, AndytotheD said:

In career mode, when a G-14 gets replaced, an image of a G-14/AS is used. 

 

Edit 1: Picture

 

Edit 2: I've also read that this is a G-10

 

G-14AS replacement.jpg

 

"Rita" had WNr. 490642.  2.JG 300 Red 2 Rita WNr 490642 - Eberhard Gzik.

 

According to Prien/Rodeike it is an Erla build G-10.

 

 

g10-wnr.jpg

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1 hour ago, sevenless said:

 

"Rita" had WNr. 490642.  2.JG 300 Red 2 Rita WNr 490642 - Eberhard Gzik.

 

According to Prien/Rodeike it is an Erla build G-10.

 

 

g10-wnr.jpg

Did they build any G-10s with AS engines? I know the presence of chin bulges isn’t a good way to identify a late model 109, as even some G-14/AS had it, but what about the lack thereof?

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1 hour ago, AndytotheD said:

Did they build any G-10s with AS engines? I know the presence of chin bulges isn’t a good way to identify a late model 109, as even some G-14/AS had it, but what about the lack thereof?

 

Yes they did build G-10 with AS engines. Because of that, i guess, some authors including Prien/Rodeike refer to them as G10/AS. They did that because of shortages with the 605 D engine. Prien/Rodeike says "many" of the batches 490.000 (Erla) and 491.000 (Erla) were fitted with AS engines. A precise number is not given, but "many" sounds to me like a few hundreds. So, that means that your above "Rita" could very well be either a G-10 or a G-10/AS.

 

 

G10-AS-1.jpg

G10-AS-2.jpg

 

Prien/Rodeike mentions another "feature" which was specific to G-10/AS. That is the shape of the fairing in front of the cockpit, which was rectangular in case of the G10/AS like at this plane of the same unit called "Gisela" (Red 12). Prien/Rodeike identifies "Rita" as G-10. So there you have it. G-10 and G10/AS at the same time in the same squadron at Borkheide airfield in 10/44:

 

 

Gisela.jpg

Edited by sevenless

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19 minutes ago, sevenless said:

 

Yes they did build G-10 with AS engines. Because of that, i guess, some authors including Prien/Rodeike refer to them as G10/AS. They did that because of shortages with the 605 D engine. Prien/Rodeike says "many" of the batches 490.000 (Erla) and 491.000 (Erla) were fitted with AS engines. A precise number is not given, but "many" sounds to me like a few hundreds. So, that means that your above "Rita" could very well be either a G-10 or a G-10/AS.

 

 

G10-AS-1.jpg

G10-AS-2.jpg

That would make sense. The aircraft in question has a G-14/AS type cowling (I guess AS cowling in general), but the absence of the dorsal mast strongly suggests a G-10. No wonder they called the G-10 “the bastard aircraft of the Erla factory”.

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12 minutes ago, AndytotheD said:

, but the absence of the dorsal mast strongly suggests a G-10.

 

Look closer, it is there:

 

index.php?page=Attachment&attachmentID=1

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22 minutes ago, sevenless said:

 

Look closer, it is there:

 

index.php?page=Attachment&attachmentID=1

Need to get glasses to see that lmao 😂

 

as I was. Even though that werk number was designated a G-10, it appears to be, for all intents and purposes, a G-14/AS. 
 

Honestly, keeping in mind how utterly screwy late G series production was in terms of standardisation it’s no wonder they gave us a bog standard G-14 and K-4, and not a G-14/AS, G-10 or any strange combination of the two.

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5 minutes ago, AndytotheD said:

Even though that werk number was designated a G-10, it appears to be, for all intents and purposes, a G-14/AS. 

 

Yeah that is far from easy to distinguish. Unfortunately we can´t see from the original pictures if there is a high or low maintenance hatch for the oil cooler. However, even the official JG 300 site calls it a G-10. Look here:

 

https://www.jg300.de/rote-2-wnr490642.html

 

5 minutes ago, AndytotheD said:

 

Honestly, keeping in mind how utterly screwy late G series production was in terms of standardisation it’s no wonder they gave us a bog standard G-14 and K-4, and not a G-14/AS, G-10 or any strange combination of the two.

 

Yep. If they ever decide to do a G-10 then they could do 3, no, even 4 planes with one model via engine mods and minor exterior details. A G6/AS, a G10, a G10/AS and a G14/AS. Buy one get four 😉 or even five if they include the G5/AS to the party.

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3 hours ago, sevenless said:

 

Yeah that is far from easy to distinguish. Unfortunately we can´t see from the original pictures if there is a high or low maintenance hatch for the oil cooler. However, even the official JG 300 site calls it a G-10. Look here:

 

https://www.jg300.de/rote-2-wnr490642.html

 

 

Yep. If they ever decide to do a G-10 then they could do 3, no, even 4 planes with one model via engine mods and minor exterior details. A G6/AS, a G10, a G10/AS and a G14/AS. Buy one get four 😉 or even five if they include the G5/AS to the party.

Ahhh, not so fast mit the G-10 because, according to Jean-Yves Lorant & Richard Goyat, Rote 2 "Rita" was definitely a G-14/AS, whereas Rote 12 "Gisela" was a G-10...

109g-026.jpg

109g-023a.jpgThe oil filler was in the "low" position.

109g-024.jpg

109g-025.jpg

Edited by NZTyphoon
Oil filler position

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9 minutes ago, NZTyphoon said:

Ahhh, not so fast mit the G-10 because, according to Jean-Yves Lorant & Richard Goyat, Rote 2 "Rita" was definitely a G-14/AS, whereas Rote 12 "Gisela" was a G-10...

 

109g-023a.jpgThe oil filler was in the "low" position.

 

 

 

Thanks. That was the missing information on "Rita". Never saw that pic before. So what do we make out of all this? According to WNr. it is a G-10, according to oil filler "low" it most likely has an AS engine. Now is it a G10/AS as per Prien/Rodeike´s book it seems likely according to its WNr. or is it a G14/AS ?

 

The deeper you get into this the more questions get raised, it seems.

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To explain further: back in 1995 Prien & Rodeike wrote that some G-10s had AS engines (G-10/AS), but that has been superseded by later research that shows that all G-10s used DB 605Ds. The confusion comes with the shapes of the engine cowlings and associated fuselage fairings. Three main factories built the G-10: Messerschmitt Regensburg, Erla and WNF/Diana (Diana was a subsidiary of WNF)  in Austria. Each had their own design of cowling and fairing: the Erla style, with the flat panel aft of the cowling, was mistakenly identified as the non-existent G-10/AS.

 

 

109g-018.jpg

109g-019.jpg

109g-020.jpg

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4 minutes ago, NZTyphoon said:

To explain further: back in 1995 Prien & Rodeike wrote that some G-10s had AS engines (G-10/AS), but that has been superseded by later research that shows that all G-10s used DB 605Ds.

 

Ahhh, I see. That makes it easy then. Low filler = G14 with AS-engine and high filler = G10 with 605 D-engine. As always it is a question of definition.

 

Then those Erla blocks 49xxxx and 15xxxx with rectangular fairing in front of the cockpit are G-10s if they have a high oil filler and 605 D and are G14/AS if they have a low oil filler and AS engine ?

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52 minutes ago, sevenless said:

 

Ahhh, I see. That makes it easy then. Low filler = G14 with AS-engine and high filler = G10 with 605 D-engine. As always it is a question of definition.

 

Then those Erla blocks 49xxxx and 15xxxx with rectangular fairing in front of the cockpit are G-10s if they have a high oil filler and 605 D and are G14/AS if they have a low oil filler and AS engine ?

DOH! 😣 I should have known there would be be a big BUT, with late 109Gs. First off, I am wrong about the position of the oil filler - on Gzik's Rote 2 it was in the higher position...here is the low position on a G-14/AS...

109g-027.thumb.jpg.5fd46fad972ee63e49dd841ab8c49f3c.jpg

 

AND, according to JaPo's Messerschmitt Bf 109G-10/U4: Production and Operational Service:

Quote

The mother branch in Regensburg concentrated on production of the new Bf 109K-4. Despite that, a small batch] - numbering 121 aircraft (the number quoted varies from 120 - 123 machines) - of the Bf 109G-10 was made between October 1944 and January 1945. It is not quite clear why, possibly due to a temporary surplus of DB 605D engines, which could not be installed in Bf 109K-4, due to insufficient readiness, or the capacity of its production lines. The engines were consequently quite naturally adapted to the Bf 109G-14/AS airframes then being produced. Features of both versions can be found on Regensburg's G-10s and the planes differed from those made by Erla....

 

461749542_MesserschmittBF109G-10U4overCzechterritory5.thumb.jpg.32cd208c6cbddf1bf5acb400b07b8813.jpg

 

Thus, it turns out that it is quite possible that Gzik's Rote 2 was in fact a Regensburg built G-10 - or essentially a G-14/AS with a DB 605D...*sigh!* 😎

One thing that we can be reasonably sure of is that no G-14/AS were built with the Erla style G-10 cowling and flat, aerodynamically improved cockpit fairing.

Edited by NZTyphoon

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2 minutes ago, NZTyphoon said:

Thus, it turns out that it is quite possible that Gzik's Rote 2 was in fact a Regensburg built G-10, that was essentially a G-14/AS with a DB 605D...

*sigh!* 😎

 

Oh man, seems like we are discussing a really complicated case here, but on the other hand I learn a lot of this. Thanks for that. Never judge a late 109 by pics at first glance and WNrs could, but not necessarily would tell you which plane it is 😉

 

So you think about a G14/AS hull adapted to carry a DB 605D. How could such a bastard plane be called? By all performance parameters (due to 605D engine) it is on par with a "standard G-10" (if such a thing existed - I think not) and it isn´t an AS machine because it neither carries an AS nor ASM engine ? I would then say if in doubt and if it carried a 605D engine, yeah it is a G-10 (bastard plane). On the other hand, if there is even a remote chance that "Rita" had an AS/ASM engine it then would be a G14/AS. Can we completely exclude that Rita carried an AS or ASM engine? Perhaps due to the high filler which was never ever present on machines with AS or ASM engine?

 

Production logistics for late 109s must have been a nightmare. No wonder they tried to get rid of all this and focus on the K4 line.

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"Needing a PhD to figure out the actual type of my aircraft is not a bug - it's a feature."

- Willy Messerschmitt

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17 hours ago, AndytotheD said:

Honestly, keeping in mind how utterly screwy late G series production was in terms of standardisation it’s no wonder they gave us a bog standard G-14 and K-4, and not a G-14/AS, G-10 or any strange combination of the two.

Oh please, the exterior details don`t matter that much. Figure it out. Just make the one graphic model for all and take most time developing different internals.

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Really interesting discussion, chaps. I had no idea how complicated was the subject.

 

Out of interest, why was there so much variation? It seems strange to have different cowlings for what was essentially the same aircraft, with all the logistical complications that this might bring.

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11 minutes ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

Really interesting discussion, chaps. I had no idea how complicated was the subject.

 

Out of interest, why was there so much variation? It seems strange to have different cowlings for what was essentially the same aircraft, with all the logistical complications that this might bring.

All kinds of reasons: I'd imagine a big part of it was the difficulty in standardizing how the subcontractors built things. Another factor could be that, in desperation, they simply modified what parts and tooling they had available and made it work. This would result in that strange DB605D mounted to what appears to be a G-14/AS fuselage effectively creating a bastardized G-10. 

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3 hours ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

Out of interest, why was there so much variation? It seems strange to have different cowlings for what was essentially the same aircraft, with all the logistical complications that this might bring.

 

Widely dispersed manufacturing centers, ever-increasing pressures to push more planes out of the factory, and a reliance on slave labor will do that. The Soviets had similar problems themselves with their factories. 

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6 hours ago, Mac_Messer said:

Oh please, the exterior details don`t matter that much. Figure it out. Just make the one graphic model for all and take most time developing different internals.

 

Yeah it would actually be very simple to do them.

 

To make G14/AS, devs just have to take existing G14 airframe and make/fit AS engine with K4 streamlined fairings. Change oil hatch to lower position.

 

To make G10, fit engine and cowlings from K4 to existing G14 airframe. Decide if use K4 wings with fat tyres minus outer wheel covers or just regular G14 wing.

Maybe possibly add tall tailwheel availble and delete antenna mast from canopy/install loop one to it.

 

Even without those additional things it would be totally plausible G10/14/AS. Not really that hard.

 

If devs would choose to make Erla built G10, again; G14 airframe, make Erla cowlings, take engine from K4.

Choose if make it with fat/regular tyres and short or tall tailwheel.

 

 

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/articles/g10/g10.htm?fbclid=IwAR2amHNLAPAp30cPK_IXdFJIIHDXW8BpZyq-MpskZhnhoDfmWNw_6Y9q9rk

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