Jump to content
Tipsi

Why I think there should be a G-Force "indicator"...

Recommended Posts

Hey all,

 

With the advent of the new G-system I think that we can all agree that this is a fantastic step in the Il2 journey. It has changed they way we all fly and fight. Props to the devs!

 

I think we can also agree that at some point or another, we have all fated to the G-lock death and crashed our planes into the ground. Now that the patch has been out for a few weeks. A lot of us have successfully adjusted our flying style, not pulling the stick too hard in high speed manoeuvres - the G-Lock occurs less and less as we familiarise ourselves with the new system.

 

One of the slight down falls (in my opinion) is that there is absolutely no indication of how many G's you are actually pulling - until you start blacking out. Let me explain:

 

A real pilot, flying a real plane, feels the effects of G forces, whether that is pulling only 1G, or pulling 5G. The pilot is able to tell that with a "certain amount of pull of the stick, he can FEEL the G force effect on his body. If he is flying fast, he pulls on the stick, the G forces are harder - INDICATING he is flying at high speed and he knows NOT to pull to hard or he's going to black out. The pilot is able to feel the G forces on his body gives him IMMEDIATE feedback on how hard he is pulling, and also, how hard he can pull.

 

At the moment, we have no such feedback. We have absolutely no clue whether we are flying at 1g, 2g, 3g etc until we actually start blacking out. Sometimes I have been flying slowly, found myself flying into a cloud from a dogfight, I start pulling the stick, sometimes not noticing I have gained 300kp/h and I am starting to black out. When flying fast, the G forces are so apparent that even small pulls of the stick can initiate blacking out. 

 

My question is: Should there be a "G-Force" indicator?

 

I think there should be.

 

OF COURSE I can hear you say "That's unrealistic!". Yes. True. And I agree. But so is that compass bearing at the bottom left corner. So are those messages you get when it says - OUT OF AMMO or ENGINE DAMAGED. I also find the fact that I cannot tell if I'm pulling 2 Gs or 4 Gs at high speeds is unrealistic also. I am not talking about "technology". I'm merely suggesting some sort of feedback to the pilot to infer that there IS a G force acting on the pilot. Yes of course pilots in the 40's didn't have any visual cues, but they didn't need any - they bloody well FELT the forces! We Don't.

 

I would suggest that if this ever was to be implemented, it would of course be discreet. It would be maybe a very small traffic light colour in the bottom left of the screen. Green 1/2G, Yellow 3/4G, Red 5/6G? It would very much help us understand how heavy the G forces are acting on us in high speed manoeuvres.

 

What do you think?

 

Edited by Tipsi
  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
  • Upvote 15

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have been using as feedback the start of the visual black-out effects. I can usually avoid fainting altogether if I imediatelly respond to those early signs - it normally means loosing track of a target though, or doubling back across the path of the bullets comming my way.

 

If there were a g-meter you could remain constantly in the sweet spot without going over the limit, but iirc there was no such thing in the 40s. Imho it is more fun to stick to limitations that are true to the period.

  • Thanks 2
  • Upvote 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OF COURSE I can hear you say "That's unrealistic!". Yes. True.

 

This technology did not exist when the planes were originally built and flown  and I for one see no justification to implement an unrealistic advantage.

The pilots of the era we have chosen to fly in didn't have G-Force indicators so I would suggest you try DCS Modern Warfare.

  • Thanks 2
  • Sad 1
  • Upvote 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you have missed my point danielprates and  fiddlinjim and I apologise if I didn't explain properly.

 

1 hour ago, danielprates said:

but iirc there was no such thing in the 40s. Imho it is more fun to stick to limitations that are true to the period.

 

I am not talking about "technology" as you put it. I'm merely suggesting some sort of feedback to the pilot to infer that there IS a G force acting on the pilot. Yes of course pilots in the 40's didn't have any visual cues, but they didn't need any - they bloody well FELT the forces! 🙂

 

I am saying that we don't FEEL the G forces, so I cant tell if I am pulling any Gs at all, UNTIL I start blacking out.

I was suggesting that a VERY discreet, almost hidden indicator at the bottom left (it doesn't need to show numerical values or be super accurate) so feed back to the pilot that he is experiencing G.

 

28 minutes ago, fiddlinjim said:

so I would suggest you try DCS Modern Warfare.

 

No need for the flippant remark.

Edited by Tipsi
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we place a bearing indicator on the technochat, as some like to use it, the indicator is just sparing you from reading something that indeed exists your instrument panel. A G indicator though....? I agree with the feedback notion, but me thinks that the visual and audio hints (lights out, tunnel, breathing etc.) pretty much exausts what a PC sim can do - except perhaps for a force feedback joystick. What else did you have in mind?

Edited by danielprates
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, fiddlinjim said:

OF COURSE I can hear you say "That's unrealistic!". Yes. True.

 

This technology did not exist when the planes were originally built and flown  and I for one see no justification to implement an unrealistic advantage.

The pilots of the era we have chosen to fly in didn't have G-Force indicators so I would suggest you try DCS Modern Warfare.

 Do you realise, that they have such a technology IRL? It is called human body, inner ear and so one. Actually every ww2 pilot could feel g-force from very small amout to across first negative consequencies till total lost of consequence. So to have some kind of indicator would be much more realistic, that have none, again, dont understand, how somebody cant understand this, even it was very good explained in first post.

 

If i want or need such indicator in game, thats a another question... I used to fly without it already, but IRL, pilots have advantege agains us...

  • Upvote 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lets simplify this discussion. Short of force-feedback for those who have it and the already extant visual/audio hints, and short also of techno-aid for realism reasons, what else could be done? I for one can't think of anything.

  • Thanks 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I may be putting words in the OP's mouth but what I think he wants is an actual g force counter (say under the hud compass?)  What I disagree with is the claim that we don't have any clue until we black out.  Yes we do.  Could these be fine tuned?  Maybe start seeing a very light grey tint at 2 g's or something?  Maybe, I'm not sure where the existing que's cut in.  To me what we have is the happy middle ground.  Some visual and auditory ques as to what is going on is better than a numerical counter.

 

  • Thanks 1
  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A G Indicator could be something as simple as a Colored Circle that changes Color depending on how hard you have to Work to keep up the Gs (like Green for most things below 1.5g, Yellow for when you can just about maintain Vision and Red for when you start blacking out, but no actual Numbers) , and maybe the Circle shrinking in Size to display Stamina Levels.

  • Thanks 1
  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, danielprates said:

Lets simplify this discussion. Short of force-feedback for those who have it and the already extant visual/audio hints, and short also of techno-aid for realism reasons, what else could be done? I for one can't think of anything.

 

10 minutes ago, SYN_Mike77 said:

Some visual and auditory ques as to what is going on is better than a numerical counter.

11 minutes ago, SYN_Mike77 said:

Maybe start seeing a very light grey tint at 2 g's or something?

 

I like these ideas. Maybe a more pronounced colour change that happens sooner or maybe an additional "shallow, quiet grunt" from the pilot?

Edited by Tipsi
  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, danielprates said:

If we place a bearing indicator on the technochat, as some like to use it, the indicator is just sparing you from reading something that indeed exists your instrument panel. A G indicator though....? I agree with the feedback notion, but me thinks that the visual and audio hints (lights out, tunnel, breathing etc.) pretty much exausts what a PC sim can do - except perhaps for a force feedback joystick. What else did you have in mind?

 

The techno chat is also calling out engine timers, ammo counts and True Air Speed, things we do not have in-cockpit indicators for, and in the cause of TAS, could not be directly read in the era, and I'm the case of the timers, unless you're running exactly at the threadholds you can't even determine them in-cockpit.

 

I don't see any reason not to add G-forces as a techno chat indicator, beyond time to implement. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But we already have audio visual feedback when pulling Gs. If you operate your controls smoothly, you can push your virtual pilot to the limit probably much more precisely than any real pilot could. We don't get a numerical acceleration value, but neither did the pilots. I don't think adding it would help anybody, it would just make the whole experience more gamey.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
  • Upvote 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It would be interesting as a server side option to have this on or off..

also, the black out indication would be different from early to late aircraft due to g suits...

 

but im wondering, did early pilots have G-lock training? At least methods to counter it?

 

In in the game you’d hear the breath for a moment then the curtains begin to close one you..

 

Just now, lmp1986 said:

But we already have audio visual feedback when pulling Gs. If you operate your controls smoothly, you can push your virtual pilot to the limit probably much more precisely than any real pilot could. We don't get a numerical acceleration value, but neither did the pilots. I don't think adding it would help anybody, it would just make the whole experience more gamey.

Also, if you know how to use your ship right you can maneuver kill your tail :)

 

im pretty cool with the way they’ve done it :)

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Tipsi said:

 

 

I like these ideas. Maybe a more pronounced colour change that happens sooner or maybe an additional "shallow, quiet grunt" from the pilot?

I wouldn't want to see a meter or other HUD indication, but subtle cues like gasping and straining, along with the visual cues, could probably be tweaked a little without getting gamey. IMO the cues are fine as they are, but that's just my opinion. I've been able to avoid blacking out many times by easing off the stick thanks to those cues. Other times I haven't, and that's because I was too abrupt and that was the result. 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see the point in the OP

but I just don’t like screen graphics of any kind; icons, techno chat etc

There are already cues in the game like breathing and grey out. With enough experience you can learn to handle the Gs without an icon or something. 
Gs could be added to the Techno Tips and you could turn it off if desired.  

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see the OP's point as well.  However, I feel that I have already started to associate the action of pulling back on the stick with the "seat of the pants" feeling R/L pilots get, and can even sense the oncoming predictors (breathing, dimming) before they start to set in.  

 

While we don't have the butt feel advantage of the real-world pilots we do have a powerful weapon at our disposal which is:

zskrwbG.gif

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ I always found the key to flying well in these sims was to “imagine” the stick and G forces. Otherwise it was easy to just over control the aircraft. With the new physiology you get a real warning that you’ve overdone it. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The onset of G-Lock is pretty well simulated combined with the fading colors and audio huffing and puffing.

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't mind the idea of a g meter and understand the reason for the OP

 

But I feel some people with lots of time on their hands would be able to game the system to very unrealistic levels and a few would find a way to take advantage of the code to ride the g limit to exact levels,... sad but true. 

 

I have yet had enough free time to use the new feature enough to pass proper comments on G limit implementation 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is by far the best attempt at implementing G-forces available, you get to feel the delays associated with subjecting a body full of blood vessels/arteries to G-forces...or rates of G-forces rather

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Tipsi said:

Hey all,

 

With the advent of the new G-system I think that we can all agree that this is a fantastic step in the Il2 journey. It has changed they way we all fly and fight. Props to the devs!

 

I think we can also agree that at some point or another, we have all fated to the G-lock death and crashed our planes into the ground. Now that the patch has been out for a few weeks. A lot of us have successfully adjusted our flying style, not pulling the stick too hard in high speed manoeuvres - the G-Lock occurs less and less as we familiarise ourselves with the new system.

 

One of the slight down falls (in my opinion) is that there is absolutely no indication of how many G's you are actually pulling - until you start blacking out. Let me explain:

 

A real pilot, flying a real plane, feels the effects of G forces, whether that is pulling only 1G, or pulling 5G. The pilot is able to tell that with a "certain amount of pull of the stick, he can FEEL the G force effect on his body. If he is flying fast, he pulls on the stick, the G forces are harder - INDICATING he is flying at high speed and he knows NOT to pull to hard or he's going to black out. The pilot is able to feel the G forces on his body gives him IMMEDIATE feedback on how hard he is pulling, and also, how hard he can pull.

 

At the moment, we have no such feedback. We have absolutely no clue whether we are flying at 1g, 2g, 3g etc until we actually start blacking out. Sometimes I have been flying slowly, found myself flying into a cloud from a dogfight, I start pulling the stick, sometimes not noticing I have gained 300kp/h and I am starting to black out. When flying fast, the G forces are so apparent that even small pulls of the stick can initiate blacking out. 

 

My question is: Should there be a "G-Force" indicator?

 

I think there should be.

 

OF COURSE I can hear you say "That's unrealistic!". Yes. True. And I agree. But so is that compass bearing at the bottom left corner. So are those messages you get when it says - OUT OF AMMO or ENGINE DAMAGED. I also find the fact that I cannot tell if I'm pulling 2 Gs or 4 Gs at high speeds is unrealistic also. I am not talking about "technology". I'm merely suggesting some sort of feedback to the pilot to infer that there IS a G force acting on the pilot. Yes of course pilots in the 40's didn't have any visual cues, but they didn't need any - they bloody well FELT the forces! We Don't.

 

I would suggest that if this ever was to be implemented, it would of course be discreet. It would be maybe a very small traffic light colour in the bottom left of the screen. Green 1/2G, Yellow 3/4G, Red 5/6G? It would very much help us understand how heavy the G forces are acting on us in high speed manoeuvres.

 

What do you think?

 

I agree, similar is with visibility (irl it's easier to notice moving object than on flickering monitors ir VR).

Copying RL data in game is not quite realistic since flying in front of the screen we don't use all senses RL pilots does, so some compromise is welcome!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Straight G meter still isn't going to give you a precise metric of how your pilot's physiology is doing, because of the other in built factors such as rate of G's pulled, time exposed, wounds, and whatever else they modeled based on curves.  It is far more useful for those who understand corner speeds and energy states as applied to a specific air frame, not a pilot, may as well go all out with a HUD than.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

See, this is yet another one of those "discussions" I really don't see the point in. You have people fighting for and against the idea put forward by the OP, but why?

 

BoX already has a built-in HUD which certainly didn't exist in any form in the 1940's. It already includes certain information that the real pilots wouldn't have had direct access to. Those of us that don't like these unrealistic aids, including myself, can switch it off so that it has no affect on our gameplay. Those that want a helping hand are free to use it.

 

So to those arguing against a new G indicator, what's the big deal? If we can turn it on and off then who cares if it exists or not? Let those that want it have it, and the rest of us can ignore it altogether. Everyone's happy, job done.

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

Straight G meter still isn't going to give you a precise metric of how your pilot's physiology is doing, because of the other in built factors such as rate of G's pulled, time exposed, wounds, and whatever else they modeled based on curves.  It is far more useful for those who understand corner speeds and energy states as applied to a specific air frame, not a pilot, may as well go all out with a HUD than.

Maybe not G-meter, maybe better option would be blackout meter....indicator bar showing how close you are to blackout regarless of hiw many G's you're pulling.

But than again having something like that as HUD feature is immersion breaker....i don't know, i think best would be trying to give warnings trought breathing and vision, maybe a bit more streched than it is now!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand OP point, tough my take on it is different.

 

For those saying against a G indicator, remember that piloy physiology doesn`t show the effect until pilot body reacts, although the ctual Gs felt are made far earlier, debatably all the time during maneuvering. Obviously if one ever was in a moving object, he felt the movement through his body, and immediately That is I think still missing from the new feature, to "feel" the G`s while they happen.  That is why when player pulls the virtual stick hard, for another second or two nothing happens, then you get glocked with little warning.

 

Me, I`d change it so the pilot does "oooooomph" immediately while he pulls high G, not only while sustaining it for a longer time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This whining about "in real life pilot have this or that" lead to disasters like 1xx% "zoom" and "alternative visibility" implementations, what hampers the gameplay without give the "RL feelings, perceptions". 😜

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

~S~

Im sorry...

The solution to this...is already in the game!!!

A discernible audio  in this case

 A change the GLoad_Wind01. wav file. (couldn't hear it)as example with the Cliffs of Dover Overstress_07 wav

And fmod "stage", the  G audio parameters (they are working on audio all the time, so my path way could be obsolete)

If "staged" well , that would give 2 audio indications (g grunts and aircraft loading) of G to a visual.

 

 

 

Worked very well in previous patch...I guess "creaking" of the aircraft told me something lolol

Overstress_07.rar

Edited by II./JG1_Schulte

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm all for this, I like the idea of an icon or something that changes colour depending on how many Gs you're pulling. 

 

The main thing is it needs to be optional (just look at the conflict above). 

 

I really don't think audio keys for low to mid Gs is a good idea, the coughing thing we have currently already annoys me (seriously why did they only use one sound file!), it's wierd to have something playing sounds you yourself should be making - I get why it's done of course (no need to try to explain it to me). 

 

Also I think an icon for stamina would be a good accompaniment so you get some idea of how worn out you are from pulling all these Gs. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IMHO the only G-Force meter we ought to have in-game should be added to the "normal" difficulty HUD. That way, people can test for themselves how many G's they are pulling.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don’t really need some health bar to over-explain how many G’s I’m pulling.  If the screen begins to go dark I already know that’s enough.  

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Entire concept of air combat simulation is unrealistic. However, we try to make it as realistic as possible. I see the absence of any kind of G indication farther away from the realism compared to any kind of "unrealistic" indicator (numerical or not) discussed above. Therefore I vote in favor of one.

 

Unlimited ammo and invulnerability are far more unrealistic than this, yet we have these options implemented. You can always turn them off, so why not have a G indicator in the same manner?

  • Thanks 1
  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If theres an option for it Im all for it *just like the technochat, HUD compass, etc*  if not I strongly do not want a forced gauge on me.

I fly with a minimum of stuff on the screen I can get away with.  This means I get brief technochat to let me know 'continous' 'combat' etc or if I took damage, but thats it. I use the plane instruments otherwise as much as possible.  Its not just immersion, overlays just personally make me feel like my screens cluttered in a game where spotting the enemy is crucial

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd rather not have a g-indicator except as part of the floating instruments.  For expert settings I'd think it would just allow players to game the system too much if they knew precisely how much G they were pushing.  I do think however that some additional audio clues could be used, like for example:

•the sound of breathing or heartbeat becoming more noticeable

•a subtle rushing sound to simulate the rush of blood or the weight of added G

•sounds of the seat, belts, uniform moving

 

Another thing I don't hear in this game that I've heard in others is the sound of the airframe itself twisting or warping, and making 'strained metal noises' from Gs, but I don't know how realistic that is for normal G loads.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even if there was a screen indicator, I wouldn’t use it because my eyes would be on combat and not looking at graphics. Sims need feedback that you can see and feel and not gamey screen graphics. One thing that’s so immersive about racing sims is how you can feel the car through the wheel. It’s really incredible. Too bad flight sims don’t do that. FFB sticks have pretty much died out for flight. Racing without FFB would be nearly impossible. 

Better than a graphic indicator is the breathing sound, grey out etc. that you can see without looking at some icon. The idea of looking at an icon in the midst of air combat is rather useless. 

5 hours ago, Huckle said:

It’s a bad idea. It sounds like War Thunder is closer to your needs.

Yeah a “health bar” for your pilot doesn’t belong in a sim. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If anything it would be nice with a toggable G meter for FM testing :) Just like we have a toggable true speed indicator. 

 

 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...