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HarleyDavidson

P-51 Stall and spin characteristics

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Just wanted to start a discussion of the stall spin handling of the P-51. I'm finding it departing without any warning and seems to be almost a death trap in lower speed dogfights. In my opinion the P-51 seems to give no warning or its really difficult to judge as there id no real control or feel with a computer hotas system.

 

There is a manual online that describes departures and recoveries and I will try and add it here.   Is this purposely modelled in game to be more of a challenge? I'm not sure, but I'm hoping the flight model will be tweaked to become more realistic as the IL2 team strive for the most realistic approach. I will also give the address for the manual to others on the forum can get better at knowing the systems on their birds.

 

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/P-51D-manual-5april44.pdf

 

 

What do you guys think?

P-51 stall and spin characteristics.jpg

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What is your fuel level? IIRC above 60% and the rear tanks is filled which pulls the CoG aft and makes it easier to depart and trickier to recover.

 

But am sure there are more knowledgeable people who can offer more accurate advice.

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5 minutes ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

above 60% and the rear tanks is filled

 

68%

 

I find it really easy to ride the edge of the stall thanks to the gunports whistling so audibly in the cockpit.

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I try and fly with 50% fuel as much as I can.

 

I've played the original IL2, CLoD and have DCS, played many combat flight sims so I'm not a rookie by any means, only to this series from IL2, which I've had about 2 weeks. What has happened to maneuvers like the scissors or displacement rolls, some of the tactics used since the days of WWI.  I don't see them here, just get as high as you can and dive, shoot and run.

 

It's all good for the scenarios we have on multi, but at some point there is going to be a need to defend targets, bombers, tanks and troops and the old style of dogfighting will have to come back.  Its just that the aircraft in the Great battles series seem a little twitchy, more twitchy than they should be?  I'm not criticizing just making an observation.

 

If this is what the Devs have envisioned to make it more challenging, I can live with that, not a problem but IMHO its not true to how the aircraft envelope actually was. (From what I have read and studied and not actually have first hand experience with)

Edited by HarleyDavidson
needed to make addition
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Drop your fuel down to 50% and you'll have more than enough for a very long flight on any map and won't have imbalance issues. 

Additionally, the P-51 IRL had nasty snap stall qualities and many experienced pilots were killed by it.  IRL the only warning you have that you're tickling the edge of danger is a buzzing sensation in the stick. In game if you're hearing the gunports howling at low speed and higher AOA, consider that a warning.  

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2 hours ago, HarleyDavidson said:

  just get as high as you can and dive, shoot and run.

 

In the real world of aerial combat that is the best tactic.

Edited by DD_Arthur
My god I really am forgetting how to spell!

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I dunno, maybe I'm asking to much..... I guess I should stick to other flight sims to get that pilot yank and bank feeling and just have fun with what they did in this one.

 

The original IL2 and DCS really made you sharpen your stick and rudder skills, it was a skill you would always try to improve on and you would study and practice to get it right.

Edited by HarleyDavidson
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P51 and FW190 are fairly similar to me.  Any ham handed, and sometimes even not so ham handed, throwing about of the stick is rewarded with departure from controlled flight. I am not a real pilot and certainly have never flown a real WWII plane, but the characteristics seem to match what I think I know.  If you stay fast and keep control inputs smooth both of these planes have great high speed controllability.  They are definitely (to me) harder to fly and control than other planes in the stable.

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P51 IMHO has the best FM of all the planes in IL2.

 

Have a friend with over 2,000 hrs in P51s and he is a Reno air races winner, who also tried it in Il2, he loved it.

Stalls and spins are very realistic, they were nasty IRL, altitude loss and recovery technique also works as pilots describe it.

Even Bob Hoover said that about the P51.

Dont know why that manual says the stalls are mild, because pilots say it has a reputation for nasty , stall/spin, many P51s were lost in stalls/spins.

 

Keep it fast  to avoid this surprise stall.

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Fair enough, think I'll go grab the DCS F-16 and throw that around!

 

Cheers

Edited by HarleyDavidson
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2 minutes ago, HarleyDavidson said:

Fair enough, think I'll go grab the DCS F-16 and throw that around!

 

Cheers

In difficulty settings there is an option for easier/simple  flight model.

Try that one , and you can have fun throwing the P51 around.

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3 hours ago, HarleyDavidson said:

I try and fly with 50% fuel as much as I can.

 

I've played the original IL2, CLoD and have DCS, played many combat flight sims so I'm not a rookie by any means, only to this series from IL2, which I've had about 2 weeks. What has happened to maneuvers like the scissors or displacement rolls, some of the tactics used since the days of WWI.  I don't see them here, just get as high as you can and dive, shoot and run.

 

It's all good for the scenarios we have on multi, but at some point there is going to be a need to defend targets, bombers, tanks and troops and the old style of dogfighting will have to come back.  Its just that the aircraft in the Great battles series seem a little twitchy, more twitchy than they should be?  I'm not criticizing just making an observation.

 

If this is what the Devs have envisioned to make it more challenging, I can live with that, not a problem but IMHO its not true to how the aircraft envelope actually was. (From what I have read and studied and not actually have first hand experience with)


Generally speaking the controls, especially rudder in Il-2 is pretty sensitive, which contributes to the twitchy feeling. Apply curves to some of your controls in the key mapping settings to smooth out the twitchiness you're experiencing. It may also help with your experience with accelerated stalls as well. 

Vertical Scissors, flat scissors, rolling scissors, displacement rolls, descending spirals, high yoyos, low yoyos...I do them all the time in Multiplayer. Sometimes I even manage not to die while doing it. Obviously I can't speak to your experience but furballs and dogfights are common enough. A lot of axis fighters have been in the habit of zooming away from aircraft that can't follow them. In a Mustang, you're fast enough to do so, so chase them down and force them to maneuver with you. Just keep in mind that you're flying what is one of the highest performing fighters in the game so few people are going to want to stick around and tangle with you, especially if they're worried about your buddies coming too.

But the most common kill is the one where you bounce a guy and no one knows you're there...which of course is historically correct. 

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I am not a great pilot but I've never had the P-51 take me by surprise from a stall. Either I was slamming on the controls at low speed or I could feel it coming and didn't let up on the controls. I find it pretty happily aerobatic, especially compared to eg the Fw-190 or the La-5

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50% fuel in Mustang is still way more than 100% in a Spitfire IX (with similar engine). Do you really need that much dead weight? I use no more than about 20% for online dogfights in a P-51 and I find it a formidable air to air asset vs anything LW can throw against it (save the 262).

 

I never really turn hard in a P-51 unless forced to do so for defensive purposes (situation which I tend to avoid in the first place). P-51 simply isn't a fair play, duel loving knight. It's a cold blooded, lightning fast, back stabbing ninja murderer.

Edited by CrazyDuck
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2 hours ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

P51 IMHO has the best FM of all the planes in IL2.

 

Have a friend with over 2,000 hrs in P51s and he is a Reno air races winner, who also tried it in Il2, he loved it.

Stalls and spins are very realistic, they were nasty IRL, altitude loss and recovery technique also works as pilots describe it.

Even Bob Hoover said that about the P51.

Dont know why that manual says the stalls are mild, because pilots say it has a reputation for nasty , stall/spin, many P51s were lost in stalls/spins.

 

Keep it fast  to avoid this surprise stall.

 

I remember that I read that once too

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There seem to have been changes in P-51D manuals regarding stall behaviour. This is from the USAAF manual dated August 1945:

P-51-D-stall.png

 

So the difference between power off and power on stalls is 'comparatively mild' versus 'much more violent', according to this later manual. 

 

 

 

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On the planes in game with nasty stalls (p51, fw190) flaps can really help as the speed drops if you find yourself unable to extend.  They bleed a lot of speed so I don’t use them liberally but they are a useful tool in the toolbox and can help turn the tables

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Im no way a pro player but hell, if you are flying a Pony slow, then you are doing something horribly wrong

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From my hazy recollections of the Targetware flight sim the p51 had the same issue there, and it was a fairly accurate FM.  I never liked 1946's FMs, they were somewhat railish and simple.  The behavior also matches documentation of the plane.  I thought it was pretty cool to run into it when I made a bad input (down and to the right or possibly left) and it went tumbling.

 

There's a clip on youtube of a Mossie doing something similar after engine failure in an inverted position.  These later war birds were made for high speed performance, rather than low speed maneuverability, and so have some bad quirks in general at slow speeds.

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P-51B

Approach stalls are at 14:15 and accelerated stall is at 15:00.

 

 

TP-51D

Stall at 1:40.

 

 

Edited by chuter

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On 10/16/2019 at 3:52 PM, HarleyDavidson said:

In my opinion the P-51 seems to give no warning or its really difficult to judge as there id no real control or feel with a computer hotas system.

If you haven't done it already, consider smoothing out the curves of your joystick axis, especially rudder and pitch - make them so you that initially you get less in game movement than your stick moves. I experienced exactly the same thing when I first tried il2 bos years ago in early access. 

 

That said, I also feel that the symptoms of the approaching stall are almost non-existent. Since force feedback joysticks have died a death, visual and sound cues are needed to replicate buffet, but I guess it's very hard to simulate the small clues accurately. 

 

Flying any aircraft to the edge basically relies upon, 'nibbling the buffet' - which is harder in a SIM than for real - luckily the consequences of not getting it quite right are more tolerable in a sim! 

Edited by Darkmouse

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I’ve had a few close ones in the p51 she’s a wild one when your throwing her about lol

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On 10/19/2019 at 7:15 PM, Darkmouse said:

If you haven't done it already, consider smoothing out the curves of your joystick axis, especially rudder and pitch - make them so you that initially you get less in game movement than your stick moves. I experienced exactly the same thing when I first tried il2 bos years ago in early access. 

 

That said, I also feel that the symptoms of the approaching stall are almost non-existent. Since force feedback joysticks have died a death, visual and sound cues are needed to replicate buffet, but I guess it's very hard to simulate the small clues accurately. 

 

Flying any aircraft to the edge basically relies upon, 'nibbling the buffet' - which is harder in a SIM than for real - luckily the consequences of not getting it quite right are more tolerable in a sim! 

 

There are sadly only two FFB sticks that are viable at this point:

*Microsoft force feedback sidewinder 2 (USB)

*Logitech G940 HOTAS system

 

if you're made of money the Brunner magnetic stick might work too? not sure if it is compatible with IL2 though...

 

I use both the MSFFB2 and the G940, and have to say the FFB in the MSFFB is better, but the stick on the G940 is better... had to rewire the throttle with a bodnar board though - and just throw the pedals in the trash:/ The stick isn't too bad though.

 

The good news is the patent trolls lose their hold on the patent soon and I sure hope to see some new FFB sticks in the next year or so.

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I've planted the P-51 about five times now. Frequently happens at high speed >300mph.  Accelerated stall behavior results in a rapid onset flat spin with little/no warning.  Getting sick of it.  Going back to the K-4 and will play the other side until/unless I decide to learn the P-38 and wreck myself on every other dive.

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10 minutes ago, pnzrldr said:

I've planted the P-51 about five times now. Frequently happens at high speed >300mph.  Accelerated stall behavior results in a rapid onset flat spin with little/no warning.  Getting sick of it.  Going back to the K-4 and will play the other side until/unless I decide to learn the P-38 and wreck myself on every other dive.

Pulling the stick too hard. P-51 has a violent accelerated stall and it can get you in alot of trouble if you aren't careful. You just need to be more gentle on the stick, the P-51 is a demanding aircraft especially when compared to the 109.

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51 minutes ago, pnzrldr said:

I've planted the P-51 about five times now. Frequently happens at high speed >300mph.  Accelerated stall behavior results in a rapid onset flat spin with little/no warning.  Getting sick of it.  Going back to the K-4 and will play the other side until/unless I decide to learn the P-38 and wreck myself on every other dive.

 

From the 1945 P-51 manual:

P-51-spin.png

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So this is what they were talking about when they said the P-47 spins were mild ;)

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You guys fly with WAY too much fuel in your P-51s. There is almost never a reason to take more than 35%.

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Way too much hand on the stick.  I have not departed in the P51 yet, and I ride the edge a lot, all with an old CH fighterstick that I have had since 2003 or so...

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23 hours ago, [TLC]YIPPEE said:

You guys fly with WAY too much fuel in your P-51s. There is almost never a reason to take more than 35%.

 

40% works for me. You can cruise and fight for well over an hour. Especially if you do it without "marking" (84% pitch / 63% power).

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Stalls and spins characteristics seems pretty nominal for me, just proceed with the standard exits procedures that apply in any A/C and it will work. i not studied well the mustang manuals but the aircraft behavior is sane to me...

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Just make sure that the rear fuselage tank is empty before you start to mix it. Check over your left shoulder to see the gauge.

 

Other than that it is silly to gas up with more than 400 liters or so. This will not even fill the main wing tanks fully and you can do then what a 190 or a 109 can do. Besides, the Mustang has the better mileage than both German planes, so there is really no need bringing more fuel than the competition, given that flight distances are identical.

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1 hour ago, ZachariasX said:

Other than that it is silly to gas up with more than 400 liters or so. This will not even fill the main wing tanks fully and you can do then what a 190 or a 109 can do. Besides, the Mustang has the better mileage than both German planes, so there is really no need bringing more fuel than the competition, given that flight distances are identical.

 

Nope, you need more fuel because you consume more of it. The Merlin is a thirsty one, especially at high power.

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48 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

 

Nope, you need more fuel because you consume more of it. The Merlin is a thirsty one, especially at high power.

 

Specific fuel consumption of the Merlin is 235 g /hp/hr; for the DB603 I have 203 g/hp/hr. You have different data? What do you have for the DB605?

 

If it makes you happy, I'd go with 450 litres in the Mustang when the 109 takes 400 litres. But then again, I wouldn't, because the average realistic fuel burn in the Mustang is ~225 liters per hour, meaning with 400 litres you get an hour mission time including a lot of full power time. And I just don't even fly one hour missions on Combat Box. In fact, I have no use for more than 300 litres of fuel in the Mustang.

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3 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

Nope, you need more fuel because you consume more of it. The Merlin is a thirsty one, especially at high power.

 

But the Mustang is a cleaner airframe, needing less power for about the same level of performance.

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8 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

 

Nope, you need more fuel because you consume more of it. The Merlin is a thirsty one, especially at high power.

The P-51 just sips gas while aircraft like the P-47 gulps it down. You don't need alot of fuel when flying the mustang.

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On ‎10‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 2:37 PM, PatrickAWlson said:

P51 and FW190 are fairly similar to me.  Any ham handed, and sometimes even not so ham handed, throwing about of the stick is rewarded with departure from controlled flight. I am not a real pilot and certainly have never flown a real WWII plane, but the characteristics seem to match what I think I know.  If you stay fast and keep control inputs smooth both of these planes have great high speed controllability.  They are definitely (to me) harder to fly and control than other planes in the stable.

 

You know, I expected the P-51 to be like a Fw-190 but the high speed maneuverability of the 190 feels better and P-51 seems to turn and burn better, even to the point of keeping up with 109Ks and probably close to 109Gs in energy burning turns (I could be wrong though, I'm no expert just feelings here).

Edited by Krisu

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20 minutes ago, Krisu said:

 

You know, I expected the P-51 to be like a Fw-190 but the high speed maneuverability of the 190 feels better and P-51 seems to turn and burn better, even to the point of keeping up with 109Ks and probably close to 109Gs in energy burning turns (I could be wrong though, I'm no expert just feelings here).

Funny, I was actually thinking something a little different. I was expecting the P-47 to perform similar to 190s when it comes to high speed maneuvering but it seems the 47 bleeds energy so fast compared to the 190 and really stiffens up at high speeds. The P-51 I was expecting to have the high speed maneuvering of a 190 but also be able to stick with 109s in most cases.

 

P-51 performs pretty much like I expected it to, I'm happy with it.

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34 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

Funny, I was actually thinking something a little different. I was expecting the P-47 to perform similar to 190s when it comes to high speed maneuvering but it seems the 47 bleeds energy so fast compared to the 190 and really stiffens up at high speeds. The P-51 I was expecting to have the high speed maneuvering of a 190 but also be able to stick with 109s in most cases.

 

P-51 performs pretty much like I expected it to, I'm happy with it.

 

As long as you don't enter the control lock zone the P-51 is similar to the 190 in terms of high speed turns and as you said, you can dance with 109s with greater freedom than I anticipated.

 

In comparison, you wouldn't have much freedom to (lower speed) dance in a Fw-190 against a 109 

Edited by Krisu

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