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1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

If you’re implying that the Visibility setting shouldn’t be server side, that’s never going to happen. I’m sure the overwhelming majority of players want these visibility options to be server side.

im not so sure about that. 

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Just now, gimpy117 said:

im not so sure about that. 

Everyone else is. Guaranteed. That’s why 1CGS made it that way. Anything else would really upset a very large number of players. No online game has a setting like that player-controlled. Graphics sure, but not basic difficulty settings. 

 

If you’re so sure about it, start a poll and find out. 

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On 10/18/2019 at 2:45 PM, RedKestrel said:

I fly with Sharpen filter on, but I also fly with landscape filter 'blurred' as this was recommended to me in previous 'spotting' threads and seemed to help.

I will not have time to fly tonight but I will test over the weekend and see what I notice.

I flew a bit with sharpen off. I think it does help a bit, but it’s hard to say how much. Odd, because before it was noticeably better with it on. I didn’t do any really intense testing, just flew on MP with it on, I didn’t have a lot of time to fly this weekend unfortunately.

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On 10/20/2019 at 12:20 AM, SharpeXB said:

There will always be this issue in flight sims. No display technology can equal the real world in terms of resolution, color depth and contrast. And most monitors are not going to display a life sized image either. 
HDR would help because it expands the color depth from 16.7 million to 1 billion. And provides a much higher contrast ratio. That would go a long way to making other aircraft more visible. 

Alternate Visibility is similar to what DCS did in that it makes distant aircraft too visible. It’s also a user/server setting which is causing multiplayer problems in the same way. In that way it’s repeating the same mistake. 

That system is what causes so many player trouble as they try to adapt to other sims that don’t use it. They’ve been accustomed to aircraft artificially rendered at 2x the size of what they see in IL-2

Most people that don’t like the Alt Visibility don’t like it because it allows aircraft to be visible from ridiculous ranges across the entire map. It’s completely unrealistic. 

 

So, we should just leave it like that - limits of display tech simulating non realistic way of spotting objects in-game? Or just wait for X number of years until HDR monitors become standard and in the meantime don't do anything to help and improve the flight sim we all love here. Even that is a "big if" HDR will help. Great thinking and logic = scr** the customers. 👌

 

Alternate visibility is solving some, and inflating other problems. In other words, repeating the same mistake DCS did a while back. When developing a game (or any project by that matter), I don't see a logic in repeating other people/developer mistakes. Instead, one should look for successful solutions and pick up / improve from there. Especially in DCS regard, whose developers did not understand the problem to begin with.

 

The bolded statement: is the core of your thinking problem, right there. Replace "aircraft artificially rendered at 2x the size of what they see in IL-2" with "a compromise in order to bridge the gap of display technology and real life spotting". For which you have no understanding what so ever simply because you yourself do not have a problem on your system / don't like the solutions offered. More importantly, the simple fact is that in reality you just don't like scaling in any way, which you continuously back up (i.e. try to "hide") with one bad example / attempt at solving the problem as "a proof" that it cannot be done with today's hardware - yet we have listed many examples here how it can be and what benefits it would bring. Do you now start to notice the arrogance within your posts that gets so many people agitated here?

 

The bolded statement in red: no one here is arguing that, on the contrary. Once again, for n-th time: we would like to have realistic rendering distance with Scaling or Alternate systems. Not the "40km seeing-eye".

 

 

On 10/20/2019 at 3:23 AM, SharpeXB said:

Everyone else is. Guaranteed. That’s why 1CGS made it that way. Anything else would really upset a very large number of players. No online game has a setting like that player-controlled. Graphics sure, but not basic difficulty settings. 

 

If you’re so sure about it, start a poll and find out. 

 

Here is a suggestion: leave Expert as is, and give us BMS/CloD/WarthunderSIM scaling as an ALT mode and let people chose which to use online. Or are @SharpeXB and @77.CountZero too afraid that people might flock to ALT spotting then? 😁

 

As long as things stay like they are, people will find all sorts of solutions to help themselves out (e.g. lowering gamma to super low values, 3Dmigoto mod). Scaling or ATL spotting eliminates that need and gives everyone equal playing field.

 

Last but not least, IL-2 GB already features HUD scaling (predefined size no matter the resolution). Why not use the similar principle/algorithm for airplane contacts?

Edited by [DBS]TH0R
spelling, typos, etc...

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5 hours ago, [DBS]TH0R said:

So, we should just leave it like that - limits of display tech simulating non realistic way of spotting objects in-game?  

What other choice is there? Monitors and displays are only capable of so much. A color depth of 16.7 million colors and a contrast range of about 1000:1. The size of monitors isn’t likely to change much as there is only so much size you can place on a desktop. 

There is room for improvement in color space and resolution. Eventually everyone will own HDR screens the same way that 1080p 16:9 flat panels replaced CRTs 

5 hours ago, [DBS]TH0R said:

give us BMS/CloD/WarthunderSIM scaling

You act like 1CGS hasn’t seen these other games. Clearly they don’t think those solutions are better or they would have emulated them already. 

Edited by SharpeXB

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9 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

What other choice is there? Monitors and displays are only capable of so much. A color depth of 16.7 million colors and a contrast range of about 1000:1. The size of monitors isn’t likely to change much as there is only so much size you can place on a desktop. 

There is room for improvement in color space and resolution. Eventually everyone will own HDR screens the same way that 1080p 16:9 flat panels replaced CRTs

 

And this is exactly what people are doing to give themselves and edge - increasing contrast by lowering gama & using reshade. Also, I have already shown the difference with dot pitch here:

 

which gives, depending on the monitor (dot pitch) size an advantage to certain users. Then there is 3Dmigoto mod that gives VR users a nice zoom effect...

 

Users will continue to find new solutions to this problem unless devs do something to mitigate it.

 

9 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

You act like 1CGS hasn’t seen these other games. Clearly they don’t think those solutions are better or they would have emulated them. 

 

Unless you can back up this statement with an actual quote, this is nothing more than your own opinion. :)

Edited by [DBS]TH0R

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1 hour ago, [DBS]TH0R said:

And this is exactly what people are doing to give themselves and edge - increasing contrast by lowering gama & using reshade.

So if people think that helps then they can continue to do so. That’s why we have graphic settings. I think perhaps you can make the situation worse by changing your gamma to such an extreme though. 

 

What the Devs could do to help is give the game a gamma setting screen like many other games have. The trouble with trying to adjust your gamma so much is there is no calibration image in the game to tell you whether it’s correct or not. I get the impression many people are actually making the situation worse with all those adjustments. 

 

1 hour ago, [DBS]TH0R said:

Unless you can back up this statement with an actual quote, this is nothing more than your own opinion. :)

 

 

It’s just fully obvious that the people at 1CGS have seen every other flight sim game that’s ever been made. Some of them made CloD. If they’ve chosen not to emulate certain features then it’s for a good reason. 

AFAIK no other sim has used “smart scaling” besides Falcon BMS. That doesn’t make smart scaling some universally good idea if only one game used it. 

Edited by SharpeXB

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FYI: Forcing such low gama values increases contrast = makes spotting easier. OTOH (to me at least) it looks ugly and therefore I won't be using it no matter the benefit it gives.

 

Again, unless you can back up that statement with facts or an actual quote, it is merely your own opinion. Better, an assumption.

 

The only thing obvious here is that you have no clue what other solutions are being used and where (except ED's failed attempt), and why spotting works better in other sims. When you study CloD and WarthunderSIM you can come back to this discussion.

 

I will again make my suggestion: Either offer us a compromise as a new one-option spotting system, or keep the Expert for ShapeXB and similar hard core enthusiasts, and fix the borked ALT spotting (unrealistic rendering distance) with something that is proven to work in other simulators (e.g. Cliffs of Dover Blitz or Warthunder SIM mode).

 

Edited by [DBS]TH0R

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As a 1st gen VR user,  I prefer the normal visibility over alternate. Seeing dots way off in the distance, only to have them disappear within 10km feels wrong.

 

What has changed significantly for the worse is spotting and identifying from 1km to anything less than the original 9.5km range in either mode. It has gone from very hard (and something most VR players had to get used to - some giving up), to incredibly difficult, migoto mod and all.

 

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17 minutes ago, [DBS]TH0R said:

When you study CloD and WarthunderSIM you can come back to this discussion.

...

with something that is proven to work in other simulators (e.g. Cliffs of Dover Blitz ...

 

Did you know?

Cliffs of Dover was made by 1C Maddox Games

which merged with 777 Studios (makers of Rise of Flight)

to become 1C Game Studios. Who makes this game!

So you don’t think they know everything about Cliffs of Dover? 🙄

 

 

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I do believe that I have made that statement (Blitz being a part of these very forums) at least twice in this thread. Thus, the point of your post eludes me.

 

Seeing for how long we were stuck with poor visibility in this sim, I doubt they paid much attention to this problem until recently.

 

Here is a question for you @SharpeXB: why isn't there a problem with visibility in Cliffs of Dover Blitz?

Edited by [DBS]TH0R

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Is it possible to run CloD Blitz in 640x480 and be an uber spotter?

 

I heard this was a  popular exploit in original CloD and IL-2 46 etc. 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

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2 hours ago, [DBS]TH0R said:

FYI: Forcing such low gama values increases contrast = makes spotting easier. OTOH (to me at least) it looks ugly and therefore I won't be using it no matter the benefit it gives.

 

Again, unless you can back up that statement with facts or an actual quote, it is merely your own opinion. Better, an assumption.

 

The only thing obvious here is that you have no clue what other solutions are being used and where (except ED's failed attempt), and why spotting works better in other sims. When you study CloD and WarthunderSIM you can come back to this discussion.

 

I will again make my suggestion: Either offer us a compromise as a new one-option spotting system, or keep the Expert for ShapeXB and similar hard core enthusiasts, and fix the borked ALT spotting (unrealistic rendering distance) with something that is proven to work in other simulators (e.g. Cliffs of Dover Blitz or Warthunder SIM mode).

 

It's a difficult question as it seems so dependent on who's playing as to what their opinion on each version of spotting. I really trust Thor's judgement and I'm hundred percent sure that expert is in no way realistic for him, but for me (without any low gamma monkey business or other such nonsense) expert spotting (which I'm sure uses some level of mild scaling btw) is, realistic for me. Ie it compares well for me in real life. 

 

The question is, how do the Devs make Thor and my system give a similar experience.

 

I think a good starter for ten would be to render distant contacts not as a discrete number of pixels but as a percentage width of a screen. Eg currently I reckon and suspect if one contact is rendered at 4x4 pixels at a particular distance on 1080p it'll be 4x4 on a 4k monitor. It should be 8x8. Ok so that means that they'll be equally as easy to spot, but the 4k user will have an easier time identifying, but when someone's got better kit, they're going to have some sort of advantage. This is coming from someone who has a rift cv1 or a hd monitor.

 

Ps for me il2 box is better at spotting than clod and DC's.

O

5 minutes ago, Dakpilot said:

Is it possible to run CloD Blitz in 640x480 and be an uber spotter?

 

I heard this was a  popular exploit in original CloD and IL-2 46 etc. 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

Yep because effectively clod used icons at long range, it just happened that that icon was a 1x1 pixel dot. With a shade depending on contrast.

Edited by 71st_AH_Barnacles
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With the lengths people go to gain an advantage it would seem that CloD type Spotting is not something to be put on a pedestal as ideal to be emulated. 

 

Does Bos alternate have the same issue running low res? 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

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13 minutes ago, Dakpilot said:

With the lengths people go to gain an advantage it would seem that CloD type Spotting is not something to be put on a pedestal as ideal to be emulated. 

 

Does Bos alternate have the same issue running low res? 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

Not sure. probably not exactly the same. I'm not totally sure about the relative LoDs in BoX at different resolutions because I don't have a 4k monitor to check. I suspect it may not be quite as straightforward, because the game seems to do different things at different ranges, in both expert and alternative spotting. Remember alternative only came about because they got the scale factor wrong at one particular range of distances.

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17 minutes ago, Dakpilot said:

With the lengths people go to gain an advantage it would seem that CloD type Spotting is not something to be put on a pedestal as ideal to be emulated. 

 

Does Bos alternate have the same issue running low res? 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

For reference I have a 1920 x 1080 monitor.

From what I can tell from my own experience and seeing others commenting on the forums, I would say that the higher your resolution, the less glaring the issues are with Alt spotting and the harder expert spotting becomes.  

Expert spotting, for me, does not present the glaring issues other people have, nor do I find it that much harder to spot and track aircraft at close ranges since the patch - it is about the same as before to me (although I think spotting against ground clutter in game is the real shortcoming in spotting, not the range at which contacts are spotted). Spotting past 9 or 10 km or so is difficult but not impossible and tracks reasonably well with my own real life experience.

For me, alt spotting at 1080p resulted in contacts being hugely inflated and colored bright white by scaling at extreme ranges and then nearly or actually disappearing when they got closer. From screenshots other people have posted at 1440p or 4K, it seems this effect is more subdued but still present at higher resolutions. 

So, in effect, I believe that long range spotting benefits somewhat from a lower resolution screen for both visibility systems, but under alt spotting it is magnified even more because of the scaling. At the same time, I think the rapid reduction in scaling as contacts cross the 8-10 km threshold is subjectively much worse at lower resolutions than it appears on higher resolution displays. 

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1 hour ago, [DBS]TH0R said:

Here is a question for you @SharpeXB: why isn't there a problem with visibility in Cliffs of Dover Blitz?

I have not played Blitz

I do remember vanilla CloD being really awful at visibility. It had a bad inverse zoom effect, muted colors and lacked any antialiasing. 

Hopefully Blitz fixed these shortcomings but I’ve not played it. 

1 hour ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

 

I think a good starter for ten would be to render distant contacts not as a discrete number of pixels but as a percentage width of a screen.

How is the game going to know the width of your screen? Before you answer that it will read a hardware ID just consider how many different makes and models of monitors and displays there are. 

1 hour ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

Yep because effectively clod used icons at long range, it just happened that that icon was a 1x1 pixel dot. With a shade depending on contrast.

Which creates an inverse zoom effect and encourages players to turn down their resolution. No thanks. 

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