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P-51 “versus” Tempest

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14 hours ago, Rjel said:

I'm a far better shot with the six .50s in the Mustang. They've been more devastating than prior arguments would imply. I'm more than pleased with the plane so far.

Well I got butchered saying ,50 was far better choice in this game compared to 20 mm. 

Simply because it spray lot faster and the pray seems to be destroyed just as fast. 

In this game.

Personally for my use after the new patch I find myself flying yet again A 20 and P 47.  Something happened when I start flying VR 

I started to like P 47. For ships I take P 38 due to the 2000 lbs bombs. P 47 for smaller targets. 

I really like a rockphoon. I fly Tempest mostly for my deep respect for the Typhoon  squadrons and being in the tempest brute charm give me pleasure.

I get blown to pieces no matter witch plane I fly. I am far too much target oriented to notice planes on my six.

I love the P 51 cockpit. It is easy to fly and beautiful. But I do not relate historically that much to it. I read far more book about the planes it protected. For my use it is just not that important. But I get it that other loves it  

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

I found a little trick to exit those situations. You just keep maneuvering until you pass out completely, then plow into the ground in a gigantic fireball that entertains your enemies and serves as a cautionary tale for your friends.

It has gotten me out of those situations with a 100% success/mortality rate.

 

I am a fan of despair.com

Mistakes: perhaps the purpose of your life is just to be an example to others.

 

In my brief time the Tempest seems like a fantastic plane.  Very fast.  Very easy to handle.  Rock solid gun platform.  Absolutely deadly weapons.

Edited by PatrickAWlson
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and it dosent hurt that this is the best posible modeled cockpit in any game i saw for Tempest, same for airplane behavior in game, its realy more then i expected when they anounced that they making one for bobp.

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For air to air, I'll take the Mustang.

 

For air to ground, the P38 is the winner.

 

I thought before the patch that the Tempest would be my ride, but it has not panned out that way.

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Tempest for me. It's a manly plane.  It's at home bobing and weaving like a prize fighter in the ring with any plane in the game and it is equally a brute, roughhousing in a back alley .  If you ambush it, you better put it down with the first blow or you are in for a mauling, it is powerful enough to reel in just about any enemy except the 262, and they eventually need to land. The Tempest pilot can range across the map with a certain amount of swagger, even with 2 x 1000lb bombs, knowing he is the hunter, not the hunted.

 

If there was any reason to fly at high altitude, I would really like the Mustang, but so far have found no reason to fly it over the Tempest online.

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Posted (edited)

On the Tempest Cockpit: I agree that the boost gauge is not ideally placed, but otherwise all flying instruments make perfect sense and are identical to the Spit, making transition easy.

 

One or the (maybe few) strong points points of RAF aircraft was that all had an identical ‘central six’ panel. This was still true of the Bulldog in the ‘90s and makes for easier crew conversion.

 

For me, it is a good gauge position. The Hurri will be the same.

Edited by EAF19_Marsh

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Legioneod said:

P-47 just doesnt perform like the historical accounts say it should, P-51 however is a dream and is pretty much what I expected it to be.

 

"...unless you have a hun on your tail" - 15m of ADI supply for nothing in the game and historic pilots were told to not hesitate after 5m when they were fighting for live(s).

 

Go to QMB and set the "unbreakable" flag - and the stuff start to perform only because you won't subconsciously throttle down all the time. Thanks to the 150 octane boost scaling the BOBP's P-51D has enough of time for 60-67" and that's far more beneficial than peak transient performance. You can now put a competitive fight in time domain aka as tactics.

 

There was a chase in one match where I could stay with P-47Ds in the P-38J at SL. That's how hard people are throttling down in Thunderbolts.

Edited by Ehret

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1 hour ago, Ehret said:

 

"...unless you have a hun on your tail" - 15m of ADI supply for nothing in the game and historic pilots were told to not hesitate after 5m when they were fighting for live(s).

 

Go to QMB and set the "unbreakable" flag - and the stuff start to perform only because you won't subconsciously throttle down all the time. Thanks to the 150 octane boost scaling the BOBP's P-51D has enough of time for 60-67" and that's far more beneficial than peak transient performance. You can now put a competitive fight in time domain aka as tactics.

 

There was a chase in one match where I could stay with P-47Ds in the P-38J at SL. That's how hard people are throttling down in Thunderbolts.

 

P-38 is almost as fast as 47 on deck up to 5-6kft on emergancy power, and on combat is faster on any alt then 47 on its combat.

 

If messages worked correctly ppl would be able to use atleast to in games timers power of american airplanes, but when you dont know when timers expired or recovered why fly random fail engine airplanes when others are mutch safer option and dont have risk of random fail so high. Tempest for win 47 for hangar display 😄

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Posted (edited)

I did a little research on the Tempest versus Mustang armament question.  To make a fair comparison, I looked up reference materials on each weapon:

 

Hispano  Mk II

HE round
muzzle velocity 2825
130 gram (6 gram explosive)
rate of fire 725 rounds per minute
four in plane
http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/H/i/Hispano_20mm_gun.htm
http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/spitfire-the-hispano-cannon.html

 

(muzzle energy) times (rate of fire) times (number of weapons in platform)= (1/2) times (130) times (2825 x 2825) times (4) times (725) = total aircraft muzzle energy at max. rate of fire for 1 minute:


1,504,347,812,500;

 

versus total available muzzle energy per sortie:

 

1,659,970,000,000, counting 1.1 minute of total fire time.

 

m2 .50 cal
API round
625 gram (1 gram incendiary)
2910 fps
rate of fire 525 per minute
six in plane
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50_BMG
https://www.browning.com/news/articles/american-rifleman-explores-the-gun-that-won-the-war--.html

 

(muzzle energy) times (rate of fire) times (number of weapons in platform)= (1/2) times (40) times (2910 times 2910) times (6) times (750)=total aircraft muzzle energy at max. rate of fire for 1 minute:

 

800,235,450,000;

 

versus total available muzzle energy per sortie:

 

1,963,244,304,000,  counting 2.4 minutes of total fire time.

 

I chose a full minute of fire for comparison's sake only.  That centers the total muzzle energy on a comparable situation easily calculated, based on projectile mass only.  Both rounds are explosive, or sort-of explosive, and they are the closest I could find for this comparison.  I know that neither aircraft would likely deliver a sustained minute of fire on any given target.

 

Truthfully, I don't know how a valid comparison between HE projectiles and API (or even ball ammunition) types can be logically made.  It's not something that can be rationally constructed, because we simply don't know what it takes to destroy a military target in terms of projectile power, rate of fire or shot placement.  That's because of the randomness of damage and the proverbial "lucky shot".

 

So no matter how I try to turn this concept around, there is no "apples-to-apples" comparison possible.  The question is really kind of moot.  About all that can be said is that each hit from a Hispano 20 mm is pretty devastating, but it doesn't carry very many of those hits with it.  It's like the P-39 in miniature; each 37 mm hit is also seriously damaging, but it doesn't carry much, either.

 

It would be interesting to know just how many rounds, on average it takes to actually destroy any given target, using the simulation mechanics.  That would smooth out the variations between player skill, target and projectile type, etc.  Maybe we could get those sorts of statistics on an account-by-account basis.

 

Like the old debate between more, smaller cartridges versus fewer, more powerful ones, (9 mm versus .45, I',m looking at you) this comparison simply shows that the Mustang has more than twice the trigger time, and slightly more total projectile/mass versus projectile mass muzzle energy, but less power per hit.

 

You picks yer poison, and you takes yer chances...

Edited by mpdugas
corrections due to feedback, grammar

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6 minutes ago, mpdugas said:

Please take a look and point out my errors.

 

The 0.50 API is not 600some grams, it's 42g, or 625 grains. As a simple rule of thumb, weight goes up with the cube of the calibre, so a 12.7mm (i.e. 0.50 cal) round cannot be five times as heavy as a 20mm round.

 

Also in a wing installation, where it doesn't need to be syncronized to fire through the propeller, the rate of fire for the M2 .50 is more like 750 rpm, not just 525.

 

There recently was a long discussion related to ground attack with both of these weapons, and the gun output in terms of mass and energy is significantly higher with 4x20 than it is with 6x.50. Depending on what figures you chose, it's roughly a factor of 1.5 to 2.0 in favour of the Hispano.

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10 minutes ago, mpdugas said:

 

 

Are you sure the .50BMG projectiles aren't 625 grains, rather than 625 grams?

 

625 grams would be almost 1.5 pound bullets -- heavier than 30mm Avenger. That seems way off.

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Posted (edited)

yes, my bad on projectile weight of .50 API; many thanks.

6 minutes ago, JtD said:

 

The 0.50 API is not 600some grams, it's 42g, or 625 grains. As a simple rule of thumb, weight goes up with the cube of the calibre, so a 12.7mm (i.e. 0.50 cal) round cannot be five times as heavy as a 20mm round.

 

Also in a wing installation, where it doesn't need to be syncronized to fire through the propeller, the rate of fire for the M2 .50 is more like 750 rpm, not just 525.

 

There recently was a long discussion related to ground attack with both of these weapons, and the gun output in terms of mass and energy is significantly higher with 4x20 than it is with 6x.50. Depending on what figures you chose, it's roughly a factor of 1.5 to 2.0 in favour of the Hispano.

Thanks for the quick reply; where is this discussion?

 

Given the lower gram weight of the .50 cal projectile, my calculation for energy for .50, at the higher rate of fire of 725 rounds per minute is 800,235,450,000.

 

I cannot think of a way to compare an explosive, non-penetrating round to an incendiary, penetrating round, so I'd like to see how that was addressed.  That's what I struggled with in my initial comparison, as flawed as my reading was.

Edited by mpdugas
correction

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Tempest over 51, not touching the 51, saving something fresh for the long haul.  Surprised at the Lightnings superb hi altitude abilities, there's nothing that will top it.  Keep it above 25K and always do a climbing or flat turn battle, everything else is just sucking air by the time you get to 30K.  Lightning's flying top cover at 25K and above with tempests sweeping the 20K area should lock a solid air supremacy.  Keep those Dora's and K's pressured level or below with the feeding Tempest's, biffs and dora's are fast at altitude, but aren't in the same class of turning and maneuvering near the tops of their ceiling, using level continuous turns and high speed climbing spirals.  Tempest loses ground fast above 20K, so its a team sport.

 

That's the thing about the allied set, no one single wonder plane, but when used as a combined team in their strong areas, better watch your six, because they're going to be everywhere.

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3 hours ago, JtD said:

 

Also in a wing installation, where it doesn't need to be syncronized to fire through the propeller, the rate of fire for the M2 .50 is more like 750 rpm, not just 525..

 

AN/M2 was more like 800rpm. Later variant AN/M3 was up to 1200rpm or so.

 

Hispano slightly slower, 725rpm.

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If it's gotta be between the Tempest and P-51, I think I like the P-51 better.  Shooting things with the .50s feels (and vaguely looks) like waving a lightsabre at your target.

 

I'm not sure why though, but I'll still take the K4 over either of them.  I just love its acceleration.

Edited by hrafnkolbrandr

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10 hours ago, mpdugas said:

I cannot think of a way to compare an explosive, non-penetrating round to an incendiary, penetrating round, so I'd like to see how that was addressed.

 

It wasn't, the simple stuff really is calculating output of the guns, but it's far from easy to address damage effects of the rounds - which totally depends on type of target and type of hit.

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Tempest - for one reason only: There is no measure to how cute Focke Wulfs look when they try to dive away from one. 😍

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14 hours ago, 71st_AH_Rob_XR-R said:

If there was any reason to fly at high altitude, I would really like the Mustang, but so far have found no reason to fly it over the Tempest online.

 

G suuuiiiiiiiit :lol:

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5 hours ago, CrazyDuck said:

Tempest - for one reason only: There is no measure to how cute Focke Wulfs look when they try to dive away from one. 😍

I tried yesterday in qmb to bomb a train with Me262 (only two cannons) and 4xAce tempest with 11lb boost. After succesful bombing i tried to fly long way to achmer. Tempest engaged a with long full power dive i managed to dissengage with damaged wing. Later i tried to gain some altitude but when i lost some speed while climbing they were close again and shot me down :(

its fuc...fast this tempest :)

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On 10/8/2019 at 7:05 PM, Legioneod said:

 

Speed wise the P-47 is pretty close to reality imo and there are more important things that need work for the P-47 (damage model being the primary concern imo)

 

P-47 just doesnt perform like the historical accounts say it should, P-51 however is a dream and is pretty much what I expected it to be.

 

In reality the P-47 should be as fast as the Tempest but I stopped flying it because of the damage model.
I love the P-51, I have no idea how the developers did not add the blue noses as a default skin. 

But what's also been unanswered for me, is how the American planes spew this black smoke because of the mixture. The mixture should be automatic like the German planes. I can always spot an American plane miles away now because he's always smoking.

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The American planes do have an automatic regulator for the fuel air mixture but you have to activate it. About 70% on both the 51 and 38 seem to do the trick. It is 88% for the P-47 though.

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On 10/8/2019 at 4:06 PM, RedKestrel said:

I found a little trick to exit those situations. You just keep maneuvering until you pass out completely, then plow into the ground in a gigantic fireball that entertains your enemies and serves as a cautionary tale for your friends.

It has gotten me out of those situations with a 100% success/mortality rate.

 

Can confirm, appropriate approach 

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4 hours ago, Y-29.Silky said:

 

In reality the P-47 should be as fast as the Tempest but I stopped flying it because of the damage model.
I love the P-51, I have no idea how the developers did not add the blue noses as a default skin. 

But what's also been unanswered for me, is how the American planes spew this black smoke because of the mixture. The mixture should be automatic like the German planes. I can always spot an American plane miles away now because he's always smoking.

P-47 isn't as fast as the Tempest on the deck. With the current power setting (64") the P-47 only becomes similar around 12-15K ft,  P-47 is only becomes faster around 22k + (at least from the charts I'm looking at)

The DM is garbage I agree but that's a whole other issue.

 

The P-51 is great and a blue nose skins will probably be added before final release imo but then again they never added a 56th FG skin for the P-47 so who knows.

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I'll vote for the P-38 I think. It's something a bit different.

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On 10/10/2019 at 8:18 AM, JtD said:

I cannot think of a way to compare an explosive, non-penetrating round to an incendiary, penetrating round, so I'd like to see how that was addressed.

 

Giggity.

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On 10/10/2019 at 10:20 PM, Legioneod said:

P-47 isn't as fast as the Tempest on the deck. With the current power setting (64") the P-47 only becomes similar around 12-15K ft,  P-47 is only becomes faster around 22k + (at least from the charts I'm looking at)

The DM is garbage I agree but that's a whole other issue.

 

The P-51 is great and a blue nose skins will probably be added before final release imo but then again they never added a 56th FG skin for the P-47 so who knows.

 

12-15k feet? It's not as fast in acceleration but I am so sick of this myth that originated from War Thunder than American planes for some reason, can't perform under 10,000ft.

 

If that were the case, the P-47's would have been massacred by all the K-4's and D-9's during Bodenplatte. The entire battle was on the deck.

Edited by Y-29.Silky

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2 hours ago, Y-29.Silky said:

 

12-15k feet? It's not as fast in acceleration but I am so sick of this myth that originated from War Thunder than American planes for some reason, can't perform under 10,000ft.

 

If that were the case, the P-47's would have been massacred by all the K-4's and D-9's during Bodenplatte. The entire battle was on the deck.

You can look at the charts, speed wise the P-47 is slower at lower altitudes, that's just a fact.

If anyone has a reason to be bias it's me, the Jug is my all time favorite WW2 aircraft, but I'm not gonna say the Jug was as fast as the Tempest down low because it wasn't.

 

I never said the P-47 couldn't perform down low, real P-47 pilots could do just fine on the deck but it was at a disadvantage down low compared to when at 20k. In game we have alot of things going against us that real life pilots didnt face all that much (engine timers, iffy DM, etc.)

 

P-47 is one of the fastest aircraft in-game but only above 20k, it's sometimes hard to recognize the P-47s strengths due to the engine timers and DM being very limiting on the P-47.

Edited by Legioneod

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On 10/8/2019 at 8:07 PM, Rjel said:

The P-51D all the way. I'm a homer I guess. It's a far better performer than most wanted to believe before the patch. I've tried the Tempest. It's 20mm hit harder I guess, but I'm a far better shot with the six .50s in the Mustang. They've been more devastating than prior arguments would imply. I'm more than pleased with the plane so far.

Better shot, or more lead to put down range? 😁

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I can't keep the 51 in the sky so I hate it . . . . I'm sure it's all its fault

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P-51 has a cooler sounding engine. And that's that.

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34 minutes ago, TheTacticalCat said:

Better shot, or more lead to put down range? 😁

I'm no expert by any stretch but I've posted a couple videos where I was able to make pretty accurate and killing shots with the .50 cals in both the P-47 and now the P-51. I'd still take the .50s anytime without hesitation. Even if it isn't an immediate kill, most fighters hit with one solid burst have been giving up the ghost in rather short order. 

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On ‎10‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 5:50 PM, III./JG7-MarkWilhelmsson said:

 

You mean diving down from 7-8k and spraying 23mm HE at blues who are below you at 5K? Yea I've watched you on my tracks haha. Ripgrunwald as your bait man is a nice game. Hahaha JK

 

Maximum salt engage, lol.

 

On ‎10‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 5:56 PM, 77.CountZero said:

Exactly like that, i didnt know im watched i would dress better 😄

 

Well, that was smooth af unfortunately I ran out reactions for the day :D

 

P-51 vs tempest? P-51's cockpit is a bit more business like, I kinda prefer it over the tempest's weird gages. .50 calls require more finesse than the cannons and I generally have more fun using cannons because the feeling of .50 is so different. Both fair pretty well at high speed, I say the Tempest is a better dogfighter and probably more forgiving when it comes to pushing it EXCEPT for when it comes to black outs, then the P-51 is actually a bit better at higher speed high burn turns.

 

I'd pick the Tempest because cannons and more forgiving in terms of decision making (I think?)

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On ‎10‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 12:58 AM, J28w-Broccoli said:

If it's gotta be between the Tempest and P-51, I think I like the P-51 better.  Shooting things with the .50s feels (and vaguely looks) like waving a lightsabre at your target.

 

I'm not sure why though, but I'll still take the K4 over either of them.  I just love its acceleration.

 

It's like shaking a rope up and down until it makes little waves (firing .50s) xD

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P-51 w/ K14 gyro sight, extra ammo and a 250m convergence. Set the sight to 275 yards, wingspan to 30-32 and it's devastating in a dogfight. Works like a charm. I'm nowhere near as deadly with the Tempest, and if I have the strafe ground targets with the 51, just press a button twice on my throttle and there's a fixed reticle to use and can be used in a pinch in a dogfight should a Lufty appear.

 

I don't get all this talk about people thinking the .50's lack some punch. Just practice and find an optimal convergence for you preferred engaging distance to where they just hammer the hell out of the fuselage, cockpit, engine or wing root.

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After a long time I returned to Il2.  I'm still testing new machines in offline. I went online several times and it wasn't a happy trip. I thought Tempest would be my favorite . But blackout is my biggest enemy 😴

For this reason, my sympathies are starting to turn to P51. But I still have a lot of learning and everything can be change.
 

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Tempest. It doesn't need any science to use it. You need to know the plane and his limitations to take it to the maximun of its capabilities. Also when you hit someone you don't need to ve on convergence or put a burst of 1 second or more for destroy the plane. When a plane is hitted with 4 Hispanos, is dead.

 

Only thing of the P-51 over the Tempest is the high alt performance. 

Edited by -332FG-Ursus_

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"P-51 “versus” Tempest": Focke Wulf! 😅

 

I'd like to thumbs up many posts above but as I haven't it more... Tempest for me!

It's handle, fast and have a hard punch!

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Tempest is faster, turns better, has more firepower and so on. 

 

But still Mustang all the way - it's dream airplane to me, real Cadillac of the sky.

 

I adore both Fw 190 and P-38, I really really like Bf 109, I like Tempest and Spitfires and Yaks, but Mustang... Mustang is one and only.

On 10/9/2019 at 1:37 AM, Bremspropeller said:

Don't know about you, but I'm not into square-jawed girls.

 

But they have big balls!

 

Oh... well...

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