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=RvE=Windmills

Still a lot of unclarity with engine limits behaviour on P51/P38

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Let me start off by saying the new planes are absolutely amazing, and I have had a blast flying them. But I felt I had to test this to see if anything changed.

 

Doing some testing to see how the engine limits currently behave with the P38 and P51. It seems the situation is still similar to how the P47 is, with emergency time eating into combat time as well. So if you run through your limit on 5 minute emergency you will have only about 3/4 minutes of your 15 minute combat time remaining.

 

After depleting this, however, something a bit confusing happened. Which I'm not sure was the case before?
 

The next step was to see how long it takes to recharge each mode for it to be ready again. Dropping down to continuous I waited a bit and after about 10 minutes I received the notification that emergency power was recharged. Subsequently moving into combat power I almost immediately received the warning that combat was exceeded still. Pushing through to emergency, however, the warning faded.

 

A little bit of trying later it, I found that in this situation the engine was almost immediately dying in combat, while emergency was cooled down and available.

 

It seems a bit counterintuitive that in this situation emergency is available while combat will destroy your engine. It shouldn't be possible that these modes 'reverse' like this.

 

Now I know that Sheriff (?) asked one of the devs on the Gamescom (?) stream about the behaviour of the current engine limits for allied machines. He seemed at the time unaware of this behaviour, and said he needed to look into it. At the very least the system can be improved to be more intuitive then it is currently. As one can only do this testing due to the tech mssgs in SP, in MP you have absolutely no clue where you are with your engine limits, its complete guesswork.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I will tackle this topic soon in testing and in detail. if you you want to help me, I need times for different aircraft.

Time to warning
Time to recharge
For combat power and E-powers

And quirks like you described.

Another "nice" thing about ur engine limits is, that you can break the engine without actually exceeding any timer. As you said the Epower eats into the C-power.
Just use E-Power on the 47 (5 mins max) for example for 3 mins, go back to C-Power(15mins max) for another 5 mins and you will see that you break your engine while having neither used 5mins of E-Power nor 15mins of C-Power.

This is not only frustrating, but its in-transparent, confusing and simply unfair. The player has no psyical or HUD warning on expert servers to tell in which state the engine is. 
I will propose a more stright forward solution as soon as I have enough data on the current model and inconsistencies to make the case.

I am not against timers, i think timers are important and a "ok" solution, but we have room for a lot improvement here.

Edited by DerSheriff
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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, DerSheriff said:

I will tackle this topic soon in testing and in detail. if you you want to help me, I need times for different aircraft.

Time to warning
Time to recharge
For combat power and E-powers

And quirks like you described.

Another "nice" thing about ur engine limits is, that you can break the engine without actually exceeding any timer. As you said the Epower eats into the C-power.
Just use E-Power on the 47 (5 mins max) for example for 3 mins, go back to C-Power(15mins max) for another 5 mins and you will see that you break your engine while having neither used 5mins of E-Power nor 15mins of C-Power.

This is not only frustrating, but its in-transparent, confusing and simply unfair. The player has no psyical or HUD warning on expert servers to tell in which state the engine is. 
I will propose a more stright forward solution as soon as I have enough data on the current model and inconsistencies to make the case.

I am not against timers, i think timers are important and a "ok" solution, but we have room for a lot improvement here.

There is messages in game about engine timer expired for all mods, its exact in 1s, and when said timer is recharged. But they only work when in realisam Instrument Panel is turned on.

 

I see no reason why only thouse 6 messages would not be also displayed on all realisam settings like other 587+ techchat messages we have now, so i tought this is bug, and did ask han snakes apetrovich why is that and if is posible to activate thouse messages on all settings so you atleast know when you go abow time limit in random failuer time.

 

&engine0combatModeExceeded=
value,    message,                                        image,                type,    simple|
1,        'First engine: combat mode time exceeded!',        'modefightover',    1,        0|
0,        'First engine: combat mode recovered',            'modefightrec',        1,        0|

&engine0emergencyModeExceeded=
value,    message,                                        image,                type,    simple|
1,        'First engine: emergency mode time exceeded!',    'modeextraover',    1,        0|
0,        'First engine: emergency mode recovered',        'modeextrarec',        1,        0|

&engine0boostedModeExceeded=
value,    message,                                        image,                type,    simple|
1,        'First engine: boosted mode time exceeded!',    'modeextraover',    1,        0|
0,        'First engine: boosted mode recovered',            'modeextrarec',        1,        0|

 

So if you gona do tests you should turn on that option so you see when exactly timer expires as after spec time is out your in random time that can be 0- up to 50% of spec time ( so for 5min limit you can blow engine in 5min or up to 7,5min , but message that you expired time will show up when your safe time to use it expired, and thats why its important to se thouse messages)

 

From my tests:

P-38, P51, Spitfires Tempests all eat its 5min emergancy out of 15min/1h of combat, and also recharges last 3x long ( so for 5 min you have to fly 15min on lower setting, in test it dosent mather if its combat or continues it was always same time to fuly recharg ), also in case of p-38 and p-51 where 15min of combat is used, recharg of them takes 45min of continuous flying.

for P-47 emergancy also eats combat time but recharg is only 2x, so 5 min emerg/boosted recharges in 10min combat, and 15 combat in 30min continuous.

 

For 109s emergancy dont eat in combat, and you can recharg 1x, so 10min emergancy recharges in 10min combat, 30min combat in 30min continueos

 

for la5fn its also 1x recharg time...

 

Another reason why recharges and expired messages are important to be displayed in technochat like any other is that depending on your power and alt they will last differantly so you can not be sure that you realy expired all your combat or emergancy and that your enetered recharging time. I reported this in bug section long time ago when i realised that they display only when instrument panel is on.

 

bathered to even ask on russian, as its realy unclere to me is this just bug and they dont have time to adress it now, or its as intened to work that only this 6 messages out of 865,5 others dont show up on all realisam settings

https://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/12491-232-я-часть-дневников-разработчика/?do=findComment&comment=723586

 

 

In my opinion if emergancy eats time of combat in one airplane type but not in other thats also bug, it should eat combat timer on all or not.

Also same is when we talk about recharg times, if one type recharges its emergancy/combat time in 1x and others in 3x, then there is something wrong there.

 

But how something simple as displaying message to player when his timers are recharged and expired is not considered as important, but messages like you lost concesnes, or you open canopy ( i can see from game that i did that ) are displayed, no logic so its bug that they dont display on all realisam settings like other 1345.7 messages

 

And in the end i dont care as mutch if engine timers stay as they are now, but i need to be informed when exactly timer run out and when exactly is recharged when thouse mesages are coded in game and only ones not displaying in all mods like other 8654 messages in techchat telling me that im pulling to mutch stick and so on...as in real ww2 they could go over limit for as long they neded and they didnt need to stop at 5-6-7min, and as we have to stop , we need to be properly informed when timer runs out and when is ready to be used again.

 

Edited by 77.CountZero
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I can only speak for the P-51. Personally I fly without any HUD/GUI, so I'm not even sure which ratings are considered combat/emergency power by the game. So far, in about 8-10 hours of pure multiplayer in the Mustang, I broke my engine a grand total of zero time, despite abusing the living crap out of it. I haven't bothered to test the actual limitations because in the enviroment I fly in it never appeared to be necessary. That being said, I'd love to see some hard numbers if anyone can provide.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, =RvE=Windmills said:

Let me start off by saying the new planes are absolutely amazing, and I have had a blast flying them. But I felt I had to test this to see if anything changed.

 

Doing some testing to see how the engine limits currently behave with the P38 and P51. It seems the situation is still similar to how the P47 is, with emergency time eating into combat time as well. So if you run through your limit on 5 minute emergency you will have only about 3/4 minutes of your 15 minute combat time remaining.

 

After depleting this, however, something a bit confusing happened. Which I'm not sure was the case before?
 

The next step was to see how long it takes to recharge each mode for it to be ready again. Dropping down to continuous I waited a bit and after about 10 minutes I received the notification that emergency power was recharged. Subsequently moving into combat power I almost immediately received the warning that combat was exceeded still. Pushing through to emergency, however, the warning faded.

 

A little bit of trying later it, I found that in this situation the engine was almost immediately dying in combat, while emergency was cooled down and available.

 

It seems a bit counterintuitive that in this situation emergency is available while combat will destroy your engine. It shouldn't be possible that these modes 'reverse' like this.

 

Now I know that Sheriff (?) asked one of the devs on the Gamescom (?) stream about the behaviour of the current engine limits for allied machines. He seemed at the time unaware of this behaviour, and said he needed to look into it. At the very least the system can be improved to be more intuitive then it is currently. As one can only do this testing due to the tech mssgs in SP, in MP you have absolutely no clue where you are with your engine limits, its complete guesswork.

 

 

Like you i tought that thouse messages display only in SP, as i never saw them in MP but its not that.

They are for some unnown reason tyed to Instrument panel option, and thats why you dont see them all time, like they should be. Like you can see other 12765.5 techchat messages.

 

So for example in 45min flying time ( if you had fuel ) falowing timer limits:

On bobp 109s u can do 25min emergancy and  20min combat flying (10em+10cb+10em+10cb+5em)
spit9 and tempest,  15min emergancy, 30min combat  (5em+15cb+5em+15cb+5em)
P-47,  15min emergancy, 10min combat, 20min continuous (5em+10ct+5em+10ct+5em+10cb)

P-38, p51 , 10min emergancy, 10min combat, 25min continuous  (5em+15ct+5em+10cb+10ct) or  if you dont need combat and wont 5 more min of emergancy then 15min emergancy, 30min continuous (5em+15ct+5em+15ct+5em)

Edited by 77.CountZero

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I dont fly with the HUD.

I DO know what Sheriff is saying.

I know all the engine limits and have abused the crap out of the planes - for a fact with especially I noticed the p47, spit IX, P51, and Tempest engine failure is incredibly sudden.

Almost *any* other aircraft when you overdo the engine it gets 'damaged' and it goes downhill from there.

This has happened woth me with Allied A/C but Ive noticed it breaks immediately when I cant recall seeing that *ever* on an Axis plane; or it gets damaged and dies in 5 seconds.

My .02 cents. I agree theres something here that needs looking into.

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4 hours ago, DerSheriff said:

I will tackle this topic soon in testing and in detail. if you you want to help me, I need times for different aircraft.

Time to warning
Time to recharge
For combat power and E-powers

And quirks like you described.

Another "nice" thing about ur engine limits is, that you can break the engine without actually exceeding any timer. As you said the Epower eats into the C-power.
Just use E-Power on the 47 (5 mins max) for example for 3 mins, go back to C-Power(15mins max) for another 5 mins and you will see that you break your engine while having neither used 5mins of E-Power nor 15mins of C-Power.

This is not only frustrating, but its in-transparent, confusing and simply unfair. The player has no psyical or HUD warning on expert servers to tell in which state the engine is. 
I will propose a more stright forward solution as soon as I have enough data on the current model and inconsistencies to make the case.

I am not against timers, i think timers are important and a "ok" solution, but we have room for a lot improvement here.

 

 

Probably rethreading some known stuff but to me this is how I understand it right now.

 

Engine timers (of different power levels) can be either indepent, or cumulative. Some planes ingame, like the G14 and K4 explicitly say that these timers are separate, allowing a full 10 minutes of E and 30 minutes of C, in addition to allowing one to cool down while the other is active.

 

P51/38/47 appear to almost certainly have cumulative timers for increasing 'heat' from using C and E mode. Meaning that you can effectively think of these 2 timers as a single timer, with E mode just using it up faster than C mode.

 

However, what it seems like is that the cooldown of C and E is independent for these planes. Which triggers these odd situations. When decreasing the timer you generally get expected results, when you start replenishing the timer they appear to go out of sync. Now I'm completely unsure if this is due to different rates of cooldown on each one (for instance E is replenished with 1 minute every 2 minutes, and C with 1 minute each 1 minute), or because its somehow sequential (with E taking priority and needing to be replenished fully before C can start replenishing at all).

 

That would create situations where you get the timers to be reversed and completely out of sync like we see now.

 

Anyway, that's currently my thinking on it, it seems difficult to get any surefire way of testing this. I'm not even sure if understanding it is super helpful atm, considering things are so odd right now that I'm fairly sure there's no way this is intended behaviour.

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Still it IS interesting using your point that popular historical memory remembers US pilots being told not to turn with zeroes but we have this odd artifact legend in the community about a report on Yak3s.  Its in wiki, its been repeated on here besides me; very odd how this story ended this way and so on.

Im not arguing your point, Im wondering why

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I find the p51-38 fast enough on continuous that I rarely use combat or emergency,only in cases when trying to catch an 190 or 109 in climb 

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Timers are a joke, it wouldn't be so bad if they were implemented the same across every single aircraft.

 

I've said this before but there needs to be a set of rules for timers that apply every single aircraft. Currently what we have is a mess of timers and rules that are different for every aircraft.

Timers length should be different but the rules that effect them should be the same, currently they are not.

 

 

Currently we have aircraft like the 109 that get a huge buff due to the way timers are implemented on the aircraft (C/E seperate, can recharge in each mode, etc.) while we have aircraft like the P-47 that pretty much are useless due to the strict timers and odd rules applied to them. (basically one timer, C/E eat into each other, can't recharge in anything but cruise/max continuous)

 

Rules need to be standardized but instead the devs decided to make each aircraft with it's own odd ruleset and this causes many problems.

 

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41 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

I've said this before but there needs to be a set of rules for timers that apply every single aircraft. Currently what we have is a mess of timers and rules that are different for every aircraft.

Timers length should be different but the rules that effect them should be the same, currently they are not.

 

Given that the 109 manual states WEP and Combat are independent of one another and no Allied manual mentions anything equivalent can we not just assume that all aero-engines work like the DB605 by applying this advice out across the board? That would make things so much simpler.

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The problem is quite apparent but I'm not for getting rid of the timers all together, I fly with zero HUD and GUI and I fly the allied birds with just more caution.I have not broken an engine yet and I feel that I have more than enough combat power time. 

 

If you try to mix/max power all the time it just complicates things and becomes more of a problem than it really should be. 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Talon_ said:

 

Given that the 109 manual states WEP and Combat are independent of one another and no Allied manual mentions anything equivalent can we not just assume that all aero-engines work like the DB605 by applying this advice out across the board? That would make things so much simpler.

They list two separate timers for a reason logically you'd be able to operate the engine at those spec/time without problem. And while the manuals may not say the timers are independent of each other, they also don't say that they are linked.

Just because something isn't listed in the manual doesn't mean it didn't happen/wasn't possible. P-47D at 70", going WEP for 10-15min or even 20min, etc. the list goes on.)

 

Manuals are not the end all be all and until they add proper engine modeling there needs to be a standard of rules.

Edited by Legioneod

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Regarding the P-38, recently I've started losing my Number 2 engine during transit in continuous power. This is after taking off from parked in PWCG alongside other flights. 

 

I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, the rest of the flight seems fine. In fact I'm often lagging behind them trying to conserve power. 

 

What could be causing this? I'm at 70% mixture, less than 40" manifold, yet some ten minutes into the flight; No 2 manifold pressure starts to lag before eventually breaking. 

 

Could it be the engine wasn't warmed up properly? But wouldn't that also mean some of the AI in my flight would succumb to it too? (I followed the rest of them to Taxi). 

 

I'm in a bit of a loss, I'm certain I haven't broken any timer rules. I even lag behind the rest of the flight for fear of using up timers outside of combat.

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15 hours ago, MarderIV said:

Regarding the P-38, recently I've started losing my Number 2 engine during transit in continuous power. This is after taking off from parked in PWCG alongside other flights. 

 

I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, the rest of the flight seems fine. In fact I'm often lagging behind them trying to conserve power. 

 

What could be causing this? I'm at 70% mixture, less than 40" manifold, yet some ten minutes into the flight; No 2 manifold pressure starts to lag before eventually breaking. 

 

Could it be the engine wasn't warmed up properly? But wouldn't that also mean some of the AI in my flight would succumb to it too? (I followed the rest of them to Taxi). 

 

I'm in a bit of a loss, I'm certain I haven't broken any timer rules. I even lag behind the rest of the flight for fear of using up timers outside of combat.

 

 

The exact same thing has happened to me and a friend a few times in the Bf110 E-2.   Although this will be in combat mode, it'll be WELL within the 30 minute combat limit.  Engine temps were fine too.

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6 hours ago, FeuerFliegen said:

 

 

The exact same thing has happened to me and a friend a few times in the Bf110 E-2.   Although this will be in combat mode, it'll be WELL within the 30 minute combat limit.  Engine temps were fine too.

 

Quick question, did this happen under take-off on runway conditions or ramp starts? Or even air starts? I can't quite nail down how this is happening or how to correct it, as going through a runway or air-start the issue doesn't occur. 

 

I doubt it's a random occurrence, something definitely should be causing this. Last night I encountered a Spitfire IX (AI) on QMB windmilling and ditching despite having no visible signs of battle damage.

 

Going to try and document these better when I start on the game again. It was pretty weird seeing an AI Spit quit. I could hardly get guns on it in my Dora so I'm sure I did not hit her. 

 

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Interestingly, it's possible to extend timers by going to a lower setting than the max of a given rating.

 

For example, from what I can see, on the P-51 if you go 2850 RPM and 54" mp, you actually have an hour of combat power. That rating matches the max combat rating of the Spit IX (without the 150 octane fuel).

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, 71st_AH_Yankee_ said:

Interestingly, it's possible to extend timers by going to a lower setting than the max of a given rating.

 

For example, from what I can see, on the P-51 if you go 2850 RPM and 54" mp, you actually have an hour of combat power. That rating matches the max combat rating of the Spit IX (without the 150 octane fuel).

Yes i was saying that this will work few months ago, as i tested 15min settings we would get on p-51 from manuals on spitfire we had in game and they worked exactly as they worke in p51 now, so same engine falows same logics in both airplanes, just RAF decided that they will use differant setting for its combat mod and usaf other settings. Also both airplanes need 3x longer recharg time, unlike P-47 that needs 2x longer only.

 

If devs would just fix missing message it would be big improvment, as then you can see when game tells you to stop using it, anything els is just guess work and looks more like random failure when you dont know if game wonts you to stop or not. If we have to play by this strick timer rules, then we have to be informed when timers run out and when timers recharg, and that is buged as it only works when instrument panel is turned ON.

 

as you can see problem that you have if you not use for example max emergancy power all time, you will think you spend 5min and your rechargin now after you stop after 5min, but as you didnt use max emergancy power all 5min time, game consider max timer is longer and you would not be recharging it when you think your doing it, so when you try to use it next time after 15min, your just in what you think is full 5min of safe use and your engine blows up as it was not fully recarged. Thats why players need to be informed when game thinks timer is realy expired and realy recharged, as in real pilots didnt just lose thir engines when they screw up minut counting, they just tell ground crew i go 10min or 30min and so on and it would get add up on engines time of use. So if we have this strick system it needs to be bug free, and now it isent as messages still dont work like other 20000 tech messages that work.

 

But who needs to play with american stuff when we have Tempest 😄

Edited by 77.CountZero

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I'm always happy to jump into these discussions to voice my displeasure with the engine timers. Eventually, they're either going to be taken out and/or replaced with something else, and the sim will be much better for it.

 

The timers on the American aircraft have been a huge headache ever since the p-40 was first introduced. I understand not wanting players to unrealistically fly at full throttle all the time, but I find the current system swings way too far in the opposite direction and causes players to unrealistically baby their engines all the time while actively discouraging players from using extra power when they need it due to not having an easy way of keeping track of how much combat/emergency power they've used or have left.

 

There are so many little things that the devs could do to improve the system, from adding more hud warnings, to adding knocking sounds, to simply reducing performance instead of inevitably breaking the engine, or, heck, I think I'd just prefer the engine overheating after you've exceeded the timer.

 

Can you learn to game the timer system? Sure. Should that be a part of the sim? Not in my opinion.

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Hey guys, I took the 51 for a spin the other day and got some weird techno chat msgs, something along the lines "Watch Cowl Flaps, the aircraft is shaking", which got me confused as the 51 doesnt have cowl flaps, or am I mistaken ? Anyways, I thought it was a bug because I continued receiving those msgs even after landed, stopped the plane and turned the engine off. I was flying on Combat Box server. Does anyone experienced something similar ?

Edited by Willy__

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On 10/6/2019 at 1:57 PM, DerSheriff said:

I am not against timers, i think timers are important and a "ok" solution, but we have room for a lot improvement here.

 

I think timers are the wrong way to apply engine strain limits, simply as they are too rigid. Some engines will handle over-boost (for want of a better term) better than others of exactly the same type. It depends upon random and varied factors, like build quality, maintenance and so on and on and on. We know that engines were not as fragile as the current timer set makes them appear, so the random factor could be tweaked right down accordingly, something that cannot be done with a timer. So there's actually room for improvement with a random factor, again unlike the timer.

 

Therefore any engine damage or seizing when over-boosting should be a random factor, including no damage at all.

 

How that would play out for the virtual pilot should really then be the same as for the real pilot. Over-boost and take the risk...the very small risk.

Edited by Pict
Spelling, tweaking etc.

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Would probably be easier to get rid of times for combat power (with the constant swtiching between WEP/CP on the German BoBP planes and 60 minutes of the British planes, they are kind of unnecessary anyway). Then keep the WEP timers, but have them connected to oil pressure. Say after 5 minutes of WEP on the P-51, oil pressure drops to critical low level, so you have to switch back to continous or combat power and wait for oil pressure to rise again (should probably rise faster with lower power setting). Would atleast make it possible (or even necessary) to fly by instruments and would get rid of the need for technochat and all the confusion with WEP cutting into combat power time limt (which just shouldn't happen anyway) and different types of recoveries etc. 

 

30 minutes ago, Willy__ said:

Hey guys, I took the 51 for a spin the other day and got some weird techno chat msgs, something along the lines "Watch Cowl Flaps, the aircraft is shaking", which got me confused as the 51 doesnt have cowl flaps, or am I mistaken ?

That's a known bug. Will hopefully be fixed soon.

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it is what it is.

 

You take for example a P-38/P-47/P-51 with a 15 min military + 5 min combat limit + normally a plus or minus 50% time cushion, I use combat power whenever I need it, never check the time and have never blown an engine. 

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4 minutes ago, Sgt_Joch said:

I use combat power whenever I need it, never check the time and have never blown an engine. 

 

I use it pretty much the same way, I don't count for how long nor use technochat, but just the gauges, exhaust and more often than not the sound of the engine...can't say I never blown on though :) 

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21 minutes ago, Sgt_Joch said:

I use combat power whenever I need it, never check the time and have never blown an engine. 

 

I do the same, with the notable exception of the P-39. I somehow always manage to blow the engine in that, even closely sticking to the 15-min military power setting. It may have to do with how the T/O and emergency settings "consume" combat power, but I've never investigated in detail.

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2 hours ago, Pict said:

o there's actually room for improvement with a random factor, again unlike the timer.


The engine timer has a random factor. The engine wont seize right away. up to 50% of the time gets added on top. With increasing chance of failure

Edited by DerSheriff

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2 hours ago, DerSheriff said:


The engine timer has a random factor. The engine wont seize right away. up to 50% of the time gets added on top. With increasing chance of failure

 

I never knew that thanks.

 

That's great, if they just toned down the chances of failure a bit now it'be pretty good...no?

Edited by Pict
Spelling, tweaking etc.

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On 10/9/2019 at 7:29 AM, Stilicho said:

There are so many little things that the devs could do to improve the system, from adding more hud warnings, to adding knocking sounds, to simply reducing performance instead of inevitably breaking the engine, or, heck, I think I'd just prefer the engine overheating after you've exceeded the timer.

 

Can you learn to game the timer system? Sure. Should that be a part of the sim? Not in my opinion.

 

For the record, since view distance change has fixed stuff like Magical 10km Disappearing Ships, the engine times are the last thing in this sim that turns me off of it.  It's just not very well implemented and you make some good points about adding other cues that let the pilot know he needs to back off.  This is a video game either way, so I'd rather have some knocking noise that presages damage that isn't exactly historical, than having technochat to warn me. 

 

They do have some of these mechanics in the game, but sort of hidden behind the timers.  I was mucking about with the P-47 a few months ago, and IIRC there are technically TWO emergency power timers.  One is the gamey "Use timer."  The other is the 15 min of Water Injection.  If you use the Emergency power below 15 minutes, go back to continuous, and recharge the "Use timer,"  you will eventually run out of Water Injection without ever having the technochat message tell that you have exceeded Emergency time.  When this happens, your Temps will get out of control unless you throttle down and the engine will break of heat-stress.  It's actually kinda hard to do unless you are trying to do it. 

 

So how I think the P-47 should work is that you get 30min with some variability of combat time before random breakage, because 30 min in combat?  That's all you need before it becomes engine abuse.  That time would not eat into the Water Injection WEP, which would be a set 15 minutes, and after you use that time up (no matter if you use it 1 minute at a time or 15 minutes at once), the engine overheats and you have to ignore WEP completely unless you want to risk a quick overheat.

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3 hours ago, JG1_E_Davjack said:

For the record, since view distance change has fixed stuff like Magical 10km Disappearing Ships, the engine times are the last thing in this sim that turns me off of it.

 

I more or less agree. There are a few other things that I'd like to see improved, such as improved map tools, an overhaul to the aircraft skins, doing something about the shimmering glass scratches, etc, but the timers are definitely the last big thing that I think are an outright design mistake.

 

I also want to mention that I think the devs have done a great job at improving the sim, especially since Jason took over. I don't want to make it sound like I'm just complaining or ungrateful for all the work that has been put in.

 

3 hours ago, JG1_E_Davjack said:

So how I think the P-47 should work is that you get 30min with some variability of combat time before random breakage, because 30 min in combat?  That's all you need before it becomes engine abuse.  That time would not eat into the Water Injection WEP, which would be a set 15 minutes, and after you use that time up (no matter if you use it 1 minute at a time or 15 minutes at once), the engine overheats and you have to ignore WEP completely unless you want to risk a quick overheat.

 

I'd be happier with this. I know that people will complain about rapid overheating being just as unrealistic, but at least the player has a gauge that they could keep track of, regardless of difficulty settings and the hud being on or off. See your temps rising fast? "Whoops, I pushed my engine too hard and I should be conservative while returning to base".

 

IMO, though, random breakages just don't have a place in sims like this. If you're going to have them, then they should be tied to an engine maintenance system, and should be able to happen at any time. However, with the way things are set up, that's just well beyond the scope of this sim, and I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that we simply have factory fresh engines in our planes for the sake of simplicity.

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On 10/9/2019 at 9:29 AM, Stilicho said:

I'm always happy to jump into these discussions to voice my displeasure with the engine timers. Eventually, they're either going to be taken out and/or replaced with something else, and the sim will be much better for it.

 

The timers on the American aircraft have been a huge headache ever since the p-40 was first introduced. I understand not wanting players to unrealistically fly at full throttle all the time, but I find the current system swings way too far in the opposite direction and causes players to unrealistically baby their engines all the time while actively discouraging players from using extra power when they need it due to not having an easy way of keeping track of how much combat/emergency power they've used or have left.

 

There are so many little things that the devs could do to improve the system, from adding more hud warnings, to adding knocking sounds, to simply reducing performance instead of inevitably breaking the engine, or, heck, I think I'd just prefer the engine overheating after you've exceeded the timer.

 

Can you learn to game the timer system? Sure. Should that be a part of the sim? Not in my opinion.

Overheating and a gradual reduction in performance would be much better than the engine timers. Complete engine failure shouldn't be removed imo but it shouldn't be tied to a timer.

13 hours ago, Matt said:

Would probably be easier to get rid of times for combat power (with the constant swtiching between WEP/CP on the German BoBP planes and 60 minutes of the British planes, they are kind of unnecessary anyway). Then keep the WEP timers, but have them connected to oil pressure. Say after 5 minutes of WEP on the P-51, oil pressure drops to critical low level, so you have to switch back to continous or combat power and wait for oil pressure to rise again (should probably rise faster with lower power setting). Would atleast make it possible (or even necessary) to fly by instruments and would get rid of the need for technochat and all the confusion with WEP cutting into combat power time limt (which just shouldn't happen anyway) and different types of recoveries etc. 

 

That's a known bug. Will hopefully be fixed soon.

Yep, American aircraft suffer the most (at least in Bodenplatte) Timers should either be removed completely and tied to something else like overheating or they should be extended.

4 hours ago, JG1_E_Davjack said:

...

So how I think the P-47 should work is that you get 30min with some variability of combat time before random breakage, because 30 min in combat?  That's all you need before it becomes engine abuse.  That time would not eat into the Water Injection WEP, which would be a set 15 minutes, and after you use that time up (no matter if you use it 1 minute at a time or 15 minutes at once), the engine overheats and you have to ignore WEP completely unless you want to risk a quick overheat.

 

The P-47 is definitely a unique case in regards to timers due to it having 15min of water which it only needs when using WEP. Currently you'll have a hard time using over 5min of WEP due to engine failure or just not having enough time to recharge. The P-47 should definitely be able to use the full 15 min of water in one go (it could irl despite what manuals state).

Once the water is gone the P-47 cannot sustain WEP power,  the only exception to this is if it uses 150 grade fuel due to the ability to use 65" without water, though it still needs water for 70"

Edited by Legioneod

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On 10/8/2019 at 8:29 PM, MarderIV said:

 

Quick question, did this happen under take-off on runway conditions or ramp starts? Or even air starts? I can't quite nail down how this is happening or how to correct it, as going through a runway or air-start the issue doesn't occur. 

 

I'm usually always playing multiplayer, so it would have happened where we started engines and took off from an airfield.

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17 hours ago, DerSheriff said:


The engine timer has a random factor. The engine wont seize right away. up to 50% of the time gets added on top. With increasing chance of failure

But that random factor starts only after specified time is exided. So if i dont wont to gamble i would stop using combat or emergancy when timer run out, but thats not posible now as game has bugged techchat messages, that tell you exactly when timer run out or got recharged, as they work only when instrument panle is turned on .

Edited by 77.CountZero

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27 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

But that random factor starts only after specified time is exided. So if i dont wont to gamble i would stop using combat or emergancy when timer run out, but thats not posible now as game has bugged techchat messages, that tell you exactly when timer run out or got recharged, as they work only when instrument panle is turned on .

That is correct. You cant work with that tolerance in a effective way. I guess it happens quite often that you bite into this randomized timer without knowing.

Edited by DerSheriff

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I would be happy if they are able to fix that, so thouse important messages show up like all others on all realisam settings, as then i can just stop using emergancy or combat when timer is out by game standards, and start using it when its recharged by game standards, and no fear then that im in random failuer area without knowing it.

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On 10/11/2019 at 6:29 AM, Legioneod said:

Overheating and a gradual reduction in performance would be much better than the engine timers. Complete engine failure shouldn't be removed imo but it shouldn't be tied to a timer.

 

Thinking about it for some time, this would probably be one of the best band-aid fixes right now.

 

Something like 'engine limit exceeded, power loss!'. And your engine would cut a somewhat noticeable amount from the top end performance, maybe even get the unstable RPM. But no instant destruction.

 

This would stop you from continuing any fight, giving providing strong incentive to limit your engine power when not needed. You would need a new plane, but it would always allow you to fly back home.

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On 10/7/2019 at 10:33 PM, MarderIV said:

Regarding the P-38, recently I've started losing my Number 2 engine during transit in continuous power. This is after taking off from parked in PWCG alongside other flights. 

 

I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, the rest of the flight seems fine. In fact I'm often lagging behind them trying to conserve power. 

 

What could be causing this? I'm at 70% mixture, less than 40" manifold, yet some ten minutes into the flight; No 2 manifold pressure starts to lag before eventually breaking. 

 

Could it be the engine wasn't warmed up properly? But wouldn't that also mean some of the AI in my flight would succumb to it too? (I followed the rest of them to Taxi). 

 

I'm in a bit of a loss, I'm certain I haven't broken any timer rules. I even lag behind the rest of the flight for fear of using up timers outside of combat.

How md you get the 38 wrking in pwgc? Tell me.please!!

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3 hours ago, Sublime said:

How md you get the 38 wrking in pwgc? Tell me.please!!

 

The new PWCG version 6.3.0 ought to have it under the U.S. Campaign, at least at 01/09/1944 the 363rd Fighter Group would have them by default at the earliest. They're under "Role:Fighter".

 

Curious about why it might not be appearing on your end though. What have you got so far?

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Must not have downloaded the very latest version. The version I have only has p47s. Gotta see what the version is later. No biggie Im certain I just have an old version

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