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[TLC]MasterPooner

Please put the Spotting back

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14 minutes ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

Before it was too much being able to see single engine fighters at 40 km range, but for close ranges it was quite good imho. Just played a bit with the hotfix and while it seems I can still spot contacts above 10km, the contacts at low-mid ranges now tend to mask rather easily in terrain or in the armored glass tint as before the update. Had a Fw 190 in my sights but then had to pull up and climb because I lost him as I was looking at it through the armored glass windshield.

I think of two possible solutions, bring it back but toned down halfway in between, or bring it back just as it was before, but stop rendering planes at 20 km or so. A guy I know was a fighter pilot before becoming an airline pilot and talking about spotting in sims he told me IRL he could spot a Mirage V at roughly 10 nautical miles (19 km)

Pretty Much this

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This is probably way too much to ask, but it'd be interesting if it was configurable so that those hosting servers could play the scaling and distance ranges. I also wonder if they scaled it back for some other reason (bugs, performance, exploits, etc)?

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Man what a bummer.... the devs do fantastic work and it's been so much fun, until tonight.  I was wondering why I wasn't seeing the same stuff in MP, then came here and read about it being rolled back.  Hope it can be adjusted back in soon, this really made things so much more fun and interesting.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Lord_Flashheart said:

This year I got the chance to spot some planes from 38,000ft over England. I spotted at least a dozen planes at or near sea level, many of them not massive airliners. Some planes had considerable slant range. In il2 I am blind

...

Before the hotfix you could actually do a sweep (like was done IRL) at 18,000-25,000ft and still be able to spot planes on the deck. This is no longer possible.

38,000’ is 11.5 km, only a little farther than the 10km which was the original render range

 

and 25,000’ is 7.6 km which was within the pre 3.201 render range. Are you sure you’ve figured this right?

 

I never got to try the pre-hotfix visibility. But from all accounts it sounded too extreme. Like what DCS did and then rolled back just like 1CGS now has done. It’s a fine line between visible and too visible. 

Edited by SharpeXB

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What I find most interesting is the people who are happy with this hotfix.  There is a subset of player who liked spotting as it was.  Players who aren't interested in company when they fly.

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18 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

38,000’ is 11.5 km, only a little farther than the 10km which was the original render range

 

and 25,000’ is 7.6 km which was within the pre 3.201 render range. Are you sure you’ve figured this right?

 

I never got to try the pre-hotfix visibility. But from all accounts it sounded too extreme. Like what DCS did and then rolled back just like 1CGS now has done. It’s a fine line between visible and too visible. 

Like I said, some of them had considerable slant range. Thats more than 11.5km. This is not about mere distance. It is about visibility at all ranges. The fact that a single pixel technically renders is basically meaningless unless your playing on a 50 inch 4k TV.

 

Spotting in games is much harder than IRL. Ive seen it with my own two eyeballs and the ability to see IRL makes even the best 4k display look like shit.

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1 hour ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

What I find most interesting is the people who are happy with this hotfix.  There is a subset of player who liked spotting as it was.  Players who aren't interested in company when they fly.

spot on, players that rely more on exploiting the lack of visibility for stealth kills I imagine, as this is what i noticed was working again today. I understand not being seen is an art, but many times I have been shot by someone on my 6 that snuck up from 'dot' range, even though I was watching my 6 periodically.

 

The previous patch fixed this, I could spot incoming threats and had much better situational awareness. this is also a game and thus should be fun. People want 'muh realism', I don't mind realism but not at the expense of playability

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Yes the gameplay was more realistic, and therefore more fun for me. I need to stop commenting on these threads for now. I did not post to be a troll. 

*Erm teamplay rather

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I agree with this thread. Everything was definitely easier to see, and now i dont lose my target as often when they suddenly fly above a forest anymore. Please bring it back

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S! 

 

While there were some issues with the new visibility version, it was head and shoulders above the original. Some tweaking and it would have been perfect. Realism vs playability! 

 

Servers were packed after the original patch. Spotting back to flying in a fishbowl = instant effect in numbers. Back to abusing the visibility features.

 

Tweak the visibility thing to something in between patch and hotfix. And remove the damned smear or whatever it is from plane windows and we got a winner. This smear or film on plane windows is making game look ugly as heck in twilight conditions. 

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Long distance contacts were way too big to the point it appeared arcadey before the hot fix and think the post hotfix visibility is a lot better in that you can still see beyond 10km but yet don't stick out like sore thumbs.

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2 hours ago, Strat said:

Yes the gameplay was more realistic

 

Is this claim based on some study? (I doubt you have real WWII combat experience.) 

 

I saw Limbo post in a different thread a study about pilots spotting  DC-3's in the air and the average spotting distance for a pilot was 5.5 to 8.7 km, while "possible" distance (reference people that knew exactly from where to look) was something like 17 to 23 km. Also, I have seen that there are people that have kind of "realistic experience", too, doing mock-up air combat in warbirds (II./JG77_motoadve for example), would be interesting to hear their opinions.

Edited by II./JG77_Kemp
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I personally suck at spotting, especially when the boggies are below me and they get over a forest. I can see them getting there and then ..., I always lose them. Can you confirm that before the patch it was better in this particular case? Thanks. 

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19 minutes ago, 15[Span.]/JG51Spartan said:

I personally suck at spotting, especially when the boggies are below me and they get over a forest. I can see them getting there and then ..., I always lose them. Can you confirm that before the patch it was better in this particular case? Thanks. 

 

It really depends on the situation.  If they are in direct sunlight they might be a bit easier but not much. Cloud shadows are very useful for hiding. Camouflage and flat-finished paintjobs will blend in better but, yes it is still possible to lose sight of planes low over the trees.  Try to hold your head steady and look for movement over trying to directly track the shape of the plane. Also remember that if you have only lost them for a second or two, they can't have gone too far or changed course too much from where you last saw them. Try to picture in your mind a potential zone of where they might be next and search there.  If you lose sight for longer than that, stay evasive and check your 6 every few seconds. 

Edited by Mobile_BBQ
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Pre-hotfix was superb, it needed only a slight refining.

This is back to pre-patch now, can't see squit and it's back to pixel hunting.

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Damn, that's a shame, I stopped playing this sin because it was like a flight simulator instead a combat one, now zi am not going back and buying the game. They have to understand that we are behind monitors who are not even close to real life resolution, bad colors and smaller sizes for that reason they need to scale things in order to work

Edited by SJ_Butcher

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Ye, pre-hotfix had me ecstatic for the game for the first time in ages. Not just "interested" or "yeah I feel the itch to fly something" but properly excited to be doing it. Been spamming Discord with my hyper obersvation the entire time I went out the first day. 😁

Major bummer this.

 

It was sorta fine and acceptable when the low range was all we ever had, but knowing what is possible and how much fun and how exciting it COULD be and going back to seeing things in a little bubble is... meh. Utterly meh.

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This thread should be in Suggestion/feedback section!

 

We asked for finger and devs gave us whole hand so lets be constructive and help rather than cry "i don't want to play this sim anymore" on every tweak.

Improvement was there, problem was contrails and leaks visibility on large distances (which is realistic till some point), plane visibility on 40km and zoom in/out problem (which was still by mile better than 10km visibility).

Devs fixed contrails/leaks, now if they could reduce that 40km visibility to 25km (depending on plane size, expecially for ships up to 30km if we're going to PTO) it would be perfect.

Let's suggest best possible tweak!

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23 minutes ago, EAF_Ribbon said:

Let's suggest best possible tweak!

 

This is difficult to do as we don't have technical info on how it works currently.

 

Edit: and I rather think it should stay that way.

Knowing too much about how a simulation works can spoil the effect.

Edited by [DBS]Browning

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Here were my impressions when the new spotting dropped: 

 

I see the purpose of simulation as the recreation of an experience and I think IL-2 recreates the full experience of combat flying better than anything else available. The added SA from the patch scaling complemented that experience. I am sure this feature is still in development and balance stages, so I hope that when it's considered finished we are at least able to understand a picture of the airspace within the 5-10 km range at a glance. I logged on last night and was back to struggling to see friends 1km away in loose formation and struggling to pick out a fighter diving through flak at a couple km, and that doesn't feel like it's in the spirit of the other compromises 1C have made to ensure that this sim is grounded in reality, but acknowledging the limitations inherent to flying a plane on a 2D screen in one's house :) 1C are very good at identifying these compromises and balancing toward something that makes the history of the subject matter come alive. I hope they are hearing from this thread and others that the enhanced visibility we saw in the original update was at least something that felt better and a bit more authentic to a lot of us.

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I have thought some more about this. Last night I was flying with a friend who loves WWII aviation, but he just started IL-2 out of fear of inaccessibility. He got himself a head tracker, has a HOTAS, and finally has everything tuned to play. He owns Kuban and Stalingrad from sales. Two of his favorite planes are the Mustang and Lightning, but he isn't ready to buy BP because he doesn't think he would be able to fly fighter missions. He has about five hours in the sim so far, all flying with me coaching, and his takeaway from our session last night was that he should stick to bombers because he can't see anything enough to fly fighter planes. He's moving his head around, but he's not seeing any planes (and I'm not seeing too many of them either). From a pure business sense, had I gotten him into the game one day earlier with better visibility, I think I could have gotten him to bite on investing in the BP module. I myself held off on BP for months out of the same fear that I would never have the SA to be able to fly fighter missions. Those of us posting on this forum are in the game for good, but I think 1C can sell quite a few more copies of their modules with slight visibility changes.

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Couldn't disagree with you guys more. SURE it was easier to see aircraft but it was WAY to easy and buggy. Aircraft wear appearing larger than they should have, you could have complete situational awareness and avoid combat all together if you wanted (If you had a good lookout). This was not the case IRL, I am pleased they fixed it. 

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46 minutes ago, Roger_Meatball said:

I have thought some more about this. Last night I was flying with a friend who loves WWII aviation, but he just started IL-2 out of fear of inaccessibility. He got himself a head tracker, has a HOTAS, and finally has everything tuned to play. He owns Kuban and Stalingrad from sales. Two of his favorite planes are the Mustang and Lightning, but he isn't ready to buy BP because he doesn't think he would be able to fly fighter missions. He has about five hours in the sim so far, all flying with me coaching, and his takeaway from our session last night was that he should stick to bombers because he can't see anything enough to fly fighter planes. He's moving his head around, but he's not seeing any planes (and I'm not seeing too many of them either). From a pure business sense, had I gotten him into the game one day earlier with better visibility, I think I could have gotten him to bite on investing in the BP module. I myself held off on BP for months out of the same fear that I would never have the SA to be able to fly fighter missions. Those of us posting on this forum are in the game for good, but I think 1C can sell quite a few more copies of their modules with slight visibility changes.

Even under the old visibility system, spotting was possible enough to get good at flying fighters with practice and the right settings. Your friend should not give up, and if he loves the planes he should definitely buy the game because they are uniformly gorgeous and a joy to fly. My spotting started out atrocious and has improved massively over time, even before the improvements to the view system. Keep in mind, if you can see everyone, everyone can also see you, and that is still insanely deadly for a beginner in multiplayer. Its a double edged sword.

IRL accounts from pilots show that frequently they missed close by contacts, got bounced, hell even glanced back and found out one of your wingman was an enemy fighter who had accidentally joined your formation. The nature of WWII combat was that often you got surprised. 

Get your friend to persevere! Spotting only improves with a lot of practice even in real life - pilots spend a lot of time learning to really see aircraft at a distance. The system will be tweaked further, probably in the next patch. A happy medium will likely be found. At the very least now contrails don't pop in and out at long distances. 

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56 minutes ago, Roger_Meatball said:

I have thought some more about this. Last night I was flying with a friend who loves WWII aviation, but he just started IL-2 out of fear of inaccessibility. He got himself a head tracker, has a HOTAS, and finally has everything tuned to play. He owns Kuban and Stalingrad from sales. Two of his favorite planes are the Mustang and Lightning, but he isn't ready to buy BP because he doesn't think he would be able to fly fighter missions. He has about five hours in the sim so far, all flying with me coaching, and his takeaway from our session last night was that he should stick to bombers because he can't see anything enough to fly fighter planes. He's moving his head around, but he's not seeing any planes (and I'm not seeing too many of them either). From a pure business sense, had I gotten him into the game one day earlier with better visibility, I think I could have gotten him to bite on investing in the BP module. I myself held off on BP for months out of the same fear that I would never have the SA to be able to fly fighter missions. Those of us posting on this forum are in the game for good, but I think 1C can sell quite a few more copies of their modules with slight visibility changes.

There is an 'icons on' mode btw.

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4 minutes ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

There is an 'icons on' mode btw.

I don't think icons is what I'm talking about, though. I don't mean to suggest that everything be made blatant or UI be used as a failsafe, just that the visibility could enhance the experience while remaining true to the intentions of simulation of aerial combat.

Edited by Roger_Meatball

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17 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

IRL accounts from pilots show that frequently they missed close by contacts, got bounced, hell even glanced back and found out one of your wingman was an enemy fighter who had accidentally joined your formation. The nature of WWII combat was that often you got surprised. 

People saying this are mostly quoting witticisms like "what you dont see kills you" kind of stuff. Read encounter reports (these are accounts of individual combats by pilots in great detail), watch training videos, and talking to modern pilots. You will frequently find people doing things in these reports/instructions you cannot do in this game:

 

-Much wider wingman formations

-Knowing who your wingman is by paint sceme

-Engaging bandits very far below or above (much further than what we do in game)

-Group tactics that require constant knowledge of the tactical situation

 

In il2 pre-scaling everyone hugs the deck or flys no more than 4km above the ground unless its winter. Teamwork never get beyond following the leader because he is the only person that can see someone. And contacts are so hard to keep that doing anything other than gluing your eyeballs to them will cause you to lose them.

 

image.png.c7b2eea03ff4fbdd2c3f0ecc1c63d9e8.png

 

-The leader is able to counter enemy planes and assess their tactics

-The leader is able to leave groups at high altitude to cover the other groups attack.

-He has a good idea of how the enemy reacted to the attack.

 

This is what would happen in il2 pre scaling:

 

"I arrived over Kassel at 25,000ft and spotted a few specs below me. Zooming in to narrow FOV, I could just barely make out a single 109. I had no idea what the rest of the plane were or how many there were. Since no one else in the group could spot what I saw, I had everyone dive together. Immediately everyone was lost and all cohesion lost. We had no top cover. As it turns out, it was 50 109s and another 20 poofed out of warp drive where they had previously been invisible due to render range or lack of scaling. Everyone died. "

Edited by YIPPEE
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21 minutes ago, YIPPEE said:

People saying this are mostly quoting witticisms like "what you dont see kills you" kind of stuff. Read encounter reports (these are accounts of individual combats by pilots in great detail), watch training videos, and talking to modern pilots. You will frequently find people doing things in these reports/instructions you cannot do in this game:

 

-Much wider wingman formations

-Knowing who your wingman is by paint sceme

-Engaging bandits very far below or above (much further than what we do in game)

-Group tactics that require constant knowledge of the tactical situation

 

In il2 pre-scaling everyone hugs the deck or flys no more than 4km above the ground unless its winter. Teamwork never get beyond following the leader because he is the only person that can see someone. And contacts are so hard to keep that doing anything other than gluing your eyeballs to them will cause you to lose them.

 

image.png.c7b2eea03ff4fbdd2c3f0ecc1c63d9e8.png

 

-The leader is able to counter enemy planes and assess their tactics

-The leader is able to leave groups at high altitude to cover the other groups attack.

-He has a good idea of how the enemy reacted to the attack.

 

This is what would happen in il2 pre scaling:

 

"I arrived over Kassel at 25,000ft and spotted a few specs below me. Zooming in to narrow FOV, I could just barely make out a single 109. I had no idea what the rest of the plane were or how many there were. Since no one else in the group could spot what I saw, I had everyone dive together. Immediately everyone was lost and all cohesion lost. We had no top cover. As it turns out, it was 50 109s and another 20 poofed out of warp drive where they had previously been invisible due to render range or lack of scaling. Everyone died. "


The pilot in the report spotted the EAs from 18000 feet, not 25000 feet, and the enemies were at 4000 feet. Even with the old spotting this might be possible depending on the horizontal distance between the two (from my rough calculations and a spotting bubble of 10km, about 8km of horizontal separation). I have spotted aircraft at similar altitudes when I have been at 5 or 6k...I have just been unable to really do much about it as usually I'm in a fighter that would lose bits in the dive trying to attack the aircraft.

In the last paragraph, he talks about climbing to 5000 feet from the deck, then spotting an enemy 3000 feet below him. Why didn't he see it before, as he must have climbed through the same altitude on his climb up from the deck? Because spotting aircraft in real life was sometimes difficult, and sometimes pilots only noticed enemy aircraft when they were very close, as in this case. I mean, maybe he spotted them before but he doesn't say, because these reports are fairly terse and can't cover everything. And of course, he can't tell you about the aircraft he didn't see.

I largely agree with you in regards to the improved spotting by the way, I think it was just a little overdone and would have preferred to see it left as is and tweaked more gently in the next patch. We have not reverted to the old render bubble, so it is at least slightly better - just not nearly as good as it could be. Some adjustments to the zoom stuff, contrail fixes and toning down the bright whiteness of some planes would have been all that was needed. The big change back they made was, for me, the wrong move, but there were people who apparently could spot nothing with the new system, so they would have a much different idea on that than me.

I just feel like a lot of people are  expecting that it was the norm to pick out individual dogfighting fighters at 50 km away with a quick glance and this was clearly not the case. The pilot in this report spotted a formation of aircraft (easier to spot than a single) at 4000 feet from his position at 18000 feet an unknown distance away, but probably not much farther than 15-20 km, and then led a coordinated attack... ideally this should become possible in game and I think we will get there as they tweak the system. 


 

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I agree with everything OP said. Put the spotting/scaling/Whatever back to where it was pre-hotfix.

Edited by Spicysauced

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Soooo....  What exactly were the changes made to the hotfix?   I know that fuel leaks and overheat vapor are no longer visible from very far off and that zooming in no longer makes the planes look smaller than zooming out but, Is there anything else?   I would seriously laugh if there wasn't.  

 

The only thing I would like is a slight (2%-3%) increase in scale size of the models around the 2km to 10km range for slightly easier target ID.  Everything else seems to be working great for me post hotfix.

Edited by Mobile_BBQ
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1 hour ago, RedKestrel said:

The pilot in the report spotted the EAs from 18000 feet, not 25000 feet, and the enemies were at 4000 feet. Even with the old spotting this might be possible depending on the horizontal distance between the two (from my rough calculations and a spotting bubble of 10km, about 8km of horizontal separation). I have spotted aircraft at similar altitudes when I have been at 5 or 6k...I have just been unable to really do much about it as usually I'm in a fighter that would lose bits in the dive trying to attack the aircraft.

Technically possible. Its not practical in Il2. Were talking what works on the reg, not rarely.

 

1 hour ago, RedKestrel said:

In the last paragraph, he talks about climbing to 5000 feet from the deck, then spotting an enemy 3000 feet below him. Why didn't he see it before, as he must have climbed through the same altitude on his climb up from the deck?

You are reading this wrong.  This doesn't mean the aircraft he spotting at 3k was unknown to him before. He is only stating that this is the plane he acquired after he came back around to attack again.

 

1 hour ago, RedKestrel said:

The pilot in this report spotted a formation of aircraft (easier to spot than a single) at 4000 feet from his position at 18000 feet an unknown distance away, but probably not much farther than 15-20 km, and then led a coordinated attack.

Yes a formation is easier. But in il2 if you spotted a formation like this you would be unable to tell that they were doing a circle like he describes. You would not be able to count them, in fact what would happen in il2 is that if there were 20 planes you would spot 5 of them and never see the other 15. Both in il2 and IRL formations are easier to see, just that in IRL you see the formation and not merely a few of them due to their being so many.

 

1 hour ago, RedKestrel said:

And of course, he can't tell you about the aircraft he didn't see.

Yes thats what the top cover is for. The difference being the number of leakers. In il2 you couldnt really do a top cover because you would never be able to have enough SA to know if it was reasonable safe to leave them up there. In il2 there would be 5 planes you never say that bounce the top cover seconds after you attack. And I am not saying this cant happen IRL, but the degree of SA is what counts.

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From all the "spotting is fine" and "git gud" talk from people who support the hotfix (and liked spotting as it was for years);

 

I have to wonder why it is that on about 90% of sorties where my bomber is intercepted (if at all), it isn't until after I've dropped my bombs and am egressing the area that they decide to do anything about me.

 

Makes you go hmmmmm.

Edited by hrafnkolbrandr
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1 hour ago, YIPPEE said:

Technically possible. Its not practical in Il2. Were talking what works on the reg, not rarely.

 

 


I was responding to when you said this. Bolded for emphasis:

"In il2 pre-scaling everyone hugs the deck or flys no more than 4km above the ground unless its winter. Teamwork never get beyond following the leader because he is the only person that can see someone"

So it appeared to me you were speaking in absolutes, and I was pointing out this was not the case. Like I said I don't entirely disagree, I just feel you are overstating your case here a bit.
 

1 hour ago, YIPPEE said:

 

You are reading this wrong.  This doesn't mean the aircraft he spotting at 3k was unknown to him before. He is only stating that this is the plane he acquired after he came back around to attack again.

 

I suppose that is up to interpretation. He says "I sighted x" after climbing to 5000 feet. He doesnt say whether he had eyes on the plane the whole time or not, or if was re-engaging another target. As I said, its a terse report. If he had said he dove to attack a plane that he had spotted before, it would be unambiguous. You may be right but to my reading of the plain language it's not that clear.

I hope to play quite a bit more this weekend and I will see how I feel then about the post-hotfix spotting. My feeling right now is it should be somewhere between what we had after the patch and what we had post hotfix, but from videos and screenshots I'm seeing from the post-hotfix spotting, and comparing it to the dev diary images they posted when they talked about it, the post-hotfix stuff may have been the original intent. I don't really want to go back to before because of the zoom bugs, too bright/big planes, vapor trails etc. but if we did I could live with it, its better than pre-patch.  

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1 hour ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

From all the "spotting is fine" and "git gud" talk from people who support the hotfix (and liked spotting as it was for years);

 

I have to wonder why it is that on about 90% of sorties where my bomber is intercepted (if at all), it isn't until after I've dropped my bombs and am egressing the area that they decide to do anything about me.

 

Makes you go hmmmmm.

Hahaha that made my day

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Pre hotfix please. Even IL2 1946 done this much better than this old visibility now again.

But i think they reversed it bercause of the dsync issues. More visible Planes in sight means also more Datapackets and the Netcode was overloaded before the new visibility. New Netcode is really needed in my opinion for serveral reasons -> a good running dedicated Servers and 64Bit Support for it which means, they need a complete new Netcode for that.

Edited by ZG15_dasSofa
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I hate the way we see enlarged aircraft 40km away on 'Alternative Mode' then they vanish as you get closer though some sort of improvement on the old 9km bubble was needed.   Personally,   I would be happier with some sort of easily visible 'dot' out at 15 or 20Km and no enlarged aircraft at all.   For ground targets I am happy with 20km vis of buildings though I know many people have turned distant buildings off as it badly affects their frame rates.  Perhaps the invention of a special object that is the only thing visible from very long ranges, maybe just a bright dot at very long range,  so mission creators can place it near targets to help people line up their bombers.  This would also make high altitude bombers more viable.

Edited by 56RAF_Roblex
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bring it back, it was an equalizer to the lower end players who don't have a monster rig. it really made the game more fun and fair and I'm really, really sad that the few people who had an advantage with high end rigs were able to complain enough to get the devs to change it and we are here stuck in the "complaints" section that they probably never read

 

prove me wrong and reply to this devs 

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For me, after the 3.201 update, things went bananas in Flying Circus (I did not test the first version, just the hotfix). The missions resume being people bumping into each other and flying low to identify people above, which is an inversion of the Dicta Boelcke in general. Looks like paintball in a maze, peek-a-boo style. I just hope they work it out.

 

Talking about working it out, I found two bugs so far with the expert visibility (alternate visibility off). The first one might be related to poor spotting at close range.

 

 

 

 

Edited by SeaW0lf
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