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Eli_201

Engine smoke

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Hi all

I mast to say that the smoke of the engines is extremely  visible, this is not a phantom.

I hope it will be fix to reality.   

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43 minutes ago, Eli_201 said:

Hi all

I mast to say that the smoke of the engines is extremely  visible, this is not a phantom.

I hope it will be fix to reality.   

 

Fuel in ww2 for the Germans especially was a much lower quality than you see today making it burn "messy" . Make sure your mixture is set properly and the smoke almost disappeares completely in the allied birds. For the late war German aircraft there will always be a trail of smoke from the engine, it is perfectly accurate. 

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For the late war german planes, you can fly at a lower throttle. I dont think every german Pilot flew their planes at Max combat power the whole time, it is even  a tactical cosideration, flying at a slightly less speed, but with a higer chance of go unseen.

 

I even remember reading somewhere that late in the war some Alied pilots claimed damaged enemy while in fact they had just gone  full throttle to escape!

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Engine smoke is totally realistic and correct…..so close this wasted thread!

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I have just finished reading 'The Big Show'  by Pierre Clostermann (Essential reading for any Tempest or Spit IX pilot!) and he did comment at one point about seeing a FW190 start to trail blacksmoke so knowing that he had engaged emergency power.  Whether he meant 'the smoke went from pale grey to black' I cannot say.    What RoflSeal said is also true ie that many Allied aircraft only smoke when the fuel mix is wrong.   Only last night someone told me my Tempest was smoking and I saw that I had the mix at 70%. I set it to 50% and the smoke stopped.

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10 hours ago, =362nd_FS=RoflSeal said:

I see a lot of the new Allied aircrafts smoking in Multiplayer because pilots have their mixture set at emergency full instead of auto rich.

 

P-38 smokes at auto rich too. You need to fly with auto-lean if you want no smoke in it.

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Personally I think the effect is slightly overdone, but just slightly. 

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P-51 smokes like a tractor at "Run" setting on the mixture control. Going lower to idle or cut-off doesn't reduce the amount of smoke either..

 

I kinda like it. And I did manage to confuse myself with p-51 thinking it was a D9  😄

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At close distance the smoke is like in previous patches... but it seems there are some glitches at long ranges, with big columns of smoke (like if the planes were on fire) and contrails at low altitude (as if they were losing coolant massively). Haven't confirmed it yet but looks like the mixture smoke effect which I think is well done at close distance has some problem with the distance scaling and it either turns thick black or contrail white at long ranges. It's also noticeable with Me 262s around (no contrails at low altitude and no coolant to lose).

 

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10 hours ago, spitfirejoe said:

Engine smoke is totally realistic and correct…..so close this wasted thread!

Ok

show me the smoke.

Wher is it????

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8 hours ago, Eli_201 said:

Ok

show me the smoke

 

Modern fuels are better quality than back during the war. You were already told that up above.

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This has nothing to do with the fuel quality. If the mixture is rich and the exhaust is straight (like no catalytic converters crap) you'll see dark smoke at or around maximum power with any fuel. I think the reason why there's no smoke in the above videos is that the aircraft wasn't captured with throttle and mixture set to maximum position. Especially the modern one at the airshow. I bet they baby those engines for obvious reasons.

 

Once I got rid of the OEM exhaust on my car and installed a catless straight pipe, along with the pro tune by a professional shop, every time I step on the throttle really hard, there's dark brownish smoke coming out of the exhaust, pretty much like in the game. That's on the highest octane available at the pump. I've seen race cars with turbocharged engines that emit dark smoke and they are running on a race gas that is even higher quality. The reason is they have catless exhaust and they are tuned rich.

 

Here's how it looks like, from the 6th second of the video:

 

Obviously WWII era aircraft didn't have any catalytic converters in their exhausts, either. 

Edited by Arthur-A

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20 hours ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

I have just finished reading 'The Big Show'  by Pierre Clostermann (Essential reading for any Tempest or Spit IX pilot!) and he did comment at one point about seeing a FW190 start to trail blacksmoke so knowing that he had engaged emergency power.  Whether he meant 'the smoke went from pale grey to black' I cannot say.    What RoflSeal said is also true ie that many Allied aircraft only smoke when the fuel mix is wrong.   Only last night someone told me my Tempest was smoking and I saw that I had the mix at 70%. I set it to 50% and the smoke stopped.

 

Use ye the Clostermann ‘facts’ with extreme care! However, there are a lot of pilot accounts that cite examples of exhaust smoke becoming more or less evident (normally when viewing and enemy aircraft) at differing throttle settings and probably mixture.

 

IIRC, Tempest should be on middle mixture setting 95% of the time.

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30 minutes ago, EAF19_Marsh said:


Use ye the Clostermann ‘facts’ with extreme care!

 

I use all pilot accounts with extreme care. I have seen both Spit pilots and 109 pilots from 1940 say they loved being outnumbered 3 to 1 as it just gave them more kills. I have seen spit pilots say that the best way to get a 109 off your tail was to climb steeply away as they could not follow etc.

Nevertheless Clostermanns book is a great read and I did not find it as boastful as many had led me to believe unless it was his kill claims. He describes many occasions where he or his flight totally screwed up while I have seen many other pilot bios where they never admit to making mistakes.  

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18 minutes ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

Nevertheless Clostermanns book is a great read and I did not find it as boastful as many had led me to believe

 

It is a great read. But factually it is all over the place, something which you can easily cross-reference with other works. He is wrong on technical issues, operational issues, strategic issues. He talks up his ‘leading’ of 122 Wing which apparently went unnoticed by the C/Os of the other squadrons. He totally fabricates events (loss of W/C Brooker) and leaves out inconvenient facts (who was Mouchette’s wingman that abandoned him to chase off after enemy fighters? Oh, I wonder why Pierre was suddenly less welcome in 341...)

 

He is a terrible witness but a great author. I re-read the book recently and have now come to the view that anything he says has to be checked thoroughly before accepting.

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there are many films from the war as well that show nothing about any smoke.

The smoke in the game is like the jets from the 60', this is ridiculous

I will stop here, do some home work and not writing jokes.

 

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19 minutes ago, Eli_201 said:

there are many films from the war as well that show nothing about any smoke.

The smoke in the game is like the jets from the 60', this is ridiculous

I will stop here, do some home work and not writing jokes.

 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Eli_201 said:

there are many films from the war as well that show nothing about any smoke.

The smoke in the game is like the jets from the 60', this is ridiculous

I will stop here, do some home work and not writing jokes.

 

 

Maybe it is you who should do some research and your home work. There are plenty of REAL (that is right, I said real) videos and not movies as well as reports as you can see above that show/describe engine smoke trails. Facts do not care about your feelings and claiming something based on no evidence ("many films from war") will not help your false claims ... Perhaps it is indeed better for you to just stop as you said.

Edited by SCG_Riksen
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21 minutes ago, Eli_201 said:

there are many films from the war as well that show nothing about any smoke.

The smoke in the game is like the jets from the 60', this is ridiculous

I will stop here, do some home work and not writing jokes.

 

They are somewhat exaggerated, yes, but not nearly as much as you think.
The late War Planes are running either Synthetic or EXTREMELY Leaded Mineral Fuels. The German Planes are also running Air Fuel Ratios of 10:1 + Water Injection to keep Intake Temps down and prevent Knock under High Boost. Because they are unleaded or Low Lead Synthetic they have worse Knock abilites than the Mineral Fuels, but only create Carbon Soot Fouling, which burns off easily once Power is reduced for short Periods.

But still, only about 2/3rds of the Fuel is burned under High Boost, while 1/3rd is just used for evaporative Cooling of the Intake Air. The Burn is thus extremely Sooty.

Also: With Planes using MW50, you also have some 2 Stroke Oil in the MW50 Mix.
 

High Lead Mineral Fuels are more Knock Resistant, but have to Burn Hot as to prevent Lead Buildup on the Spark Plugs. So the Max A/F Ratio the Mustangs run is about 12:1 with 150 Octane. This is still a Burn in which 20% of the Fuel simply cool down the Intake Air through evaporation without Burning.

If you run too rich you lose Power and Foul Valves and Plugs in Minutes normally.

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Was watching this last night and it reminded me of this thread so I thought I'd share. Take off at 2:07 clearly shows a defined smoke trail and this, with modern fuel. I think the devs have done a good job.

 

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Here's a good example of the FW using a lot of power to get off the deck at 3:58 :biggrin: (Though it is clearly visible in the rest of the video too)

 

(And yes I do know that this FW isn't powered by a BMW)

 

 

The representation of this effect in IL-2 is really nicely done. It lets me know when the baddies are running their engines harder then I am :P

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The smoke should exist primarily at full throttle and more in overboost (more profound on German aircraft). 

 

Also, for clarity, Mustangs are maxing out their boost nowadays at 55 inches due to the low octane etc.(Blue, 100LL).

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In the original Memphis Belle, the 1944 version, smoke trails from German fighters are occasionally visible.  Scroll to 24:34, 25:05, 26:15, and 26:34.  Unfortunately this copy isn't that great:

 

 

 

Edited by Rebel_Scum
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On 10/4/2019 at 4:14 AM, 56RAF_Roblex said:

 

I use all pilot accounts with extreme care. I have seen both Spit pilots and 109 pilots from 1940 say they loved being outnumbered 3 to 1 as it just gave them more kills. I have seen spit pilots say that the best way to get a 109 off your tail was to climb steeply away as they could not follow etc.

Nevertheless Clostermanns book is a great read and I did not find it as boastful as many had led me to believe unless it was his kill claims. He describes many occasions where he or his flight totally screwed up while I have seen many other pilot bios where they never admit to making mistakes.  

 

Just a random fact that I can't contain myself from sharing: Closterman was born here in my hometown in southern Brazil. His father was a foreign (from our perspective) diplomay and worked around here in those days.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Clostermann

 

 

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Also back in the days, damaged engine used to emit black smoke if it still running. now it only smoke when it's about to quit.

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The exhaust trails in IL-2 are absolutely overdone.  I understand that these trails were visible (particularly using the water injection), and the fuel was in rough shape.  Honestly, the intensity of these trails on average need to be toned back by like 40%, maybe 50%.  But it varies per aircraft.  Such as the Merlin powered aircraft, there should be hardly any trail behind them, even during WEP (as they aren't water injected, and it's merely a little bit more throttle allowed).  Not saying for Merlins it should be non-existent, but it needs to be toned back a lot.
On top of that these exhaust trails will just from seemingly 0% to 50%, and then go from there, at least for the Mustang, instead of gradually increasing with throttle or mixture.

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I do find the trails are a bit on the "too thick" side - This is a cosmetic/graphics related issue, however. I have no meaningful criticism on the technical implementation of the effect as it stands.

 

 

Two things that bother me regarding how the effect looks:

 

Thing 1:  The smoke is too thick - It is not transparent enough, alpha channel is too white, call it what you will. Needs to be made perhaps 50% less opaque to look perfect.

 

Thing 2:  The smoke comes off in two neat trails right off the exhaust stacks, and remain separated so for the duration.  Regardless of massive propwash spiraling and churning up the air which should actually mix it all up into one homogeneous blob as soon as no fuselage remains in the middle. - This breaks the illusion of the propeller being there and actually doing its thing.    Thing 2 is much less relevant for the Me262, for obvious reasons.

 

Edited by 19//Moach

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Most ingame Aircraft at Cruise Settings don's smoke at all.

All of the Aircraft with Automatic Mixture Control (Western Allied Aircraft) barely smoke in  Auto Rich and don't smoke at all in Auto Lean. The only ones who really smoke are the ones who are too mentally Limited to remember putting the Mixture in the correct Position. Also: ALL INGAME ENGINES AUTOMATICALLY ENRICHEN THE MIXTURE AT FULL THROTTLE. Barely any modern Warbirds are run at these Settings during Displays.

 

Early and Mid War German Planes don't Smoke in Cruise, and barely at higher Powersettings. Only the later ones are really rolling Coal hard, because they are using excessive amounts of Fuel for evaporative Cooling of the Intake Air

Remember, these Fuels in the American Octane Rating are around 78, in the European Ratings about 87, meaning when run at Stochiometric Optimum in an N/A Engine will Self Ignite at 6:1 Compression already.

So to get any Power out of these Fuels, you have to run them insanely Rich to get any Power out of them, meaning most of the Fuel doesn't actually fully Burn.

 

The ones flying today are running on 91 Octane American, 98 European MoGas or 100LL or higher. With these Fuels they can run the Engines near Stochiometric Optimum for nearly all Powersettings, and during the Displays they are running pretty much on Optimum.

 

The Late War Germans should be Rolling Coal like 60s Jets and Turboprops, because they are just about as Efficient, if not less.

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3 hours ago, 19//Moach said:

The smoke comes off in two neat trails right off the exhaust stacks

And for the Focke Wulfs the third trail under the fuselage is missing, where the exhaust fumes of six cylinders were blown out.

Edited by Yogiflight

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8 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

Also: ALL INGAME ENGINES AUTOMATICALLY ENRICHEN THE MIXTURE AT FULL THROTTLE.

Not trying to be argumentative or anything, just curious, do you know where i can find documentation on that? With something like the MiG-3 if i put it on 50% mixture then full-throttle it cant be going to full mixture because boost doesnt engage.

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8 minutes ago, Kataphrakt said:

Not trying to be argumentative or anything, just curious, do you know where i can find documentation on that? With something like the MiG-3 if i put it on 50% mixture then full-throttle it cant be going to full mixture because boost doesnt engage.

If you put the MiG at 50% it is automatic mixture, so it technically would.

But if you put the mixture to Auto-lean on a P-47, for example, and try to run full throttle, it doesn't auto enrich the mixture as far as I can tell, you definitely don't get full throttle performance.

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3 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

If you put the MiG at 50% it is automatic mixture, so it technically would.

But if you put the mixture to Auto-lean on a P-47, for example, and try to run full throttle, it doesn't auto enrich the mixture as far as I can tell, you definitely don't get full throttle performance.

Good point, i havent noticed the boost engage while the aircraft is on auto mixture, but i think for the past few sorties i've been confusing the MiG-3 as having "auto-lean" and "auto-rich" spots... oops...

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Just now, Kataphrakt said:

Good point, i havent noticed the boost engage while the aircraft is on auto mixture, but i think for the past few sorties i've been confusing the MiG-3 as having "auto-lean" and "auto-rich" spots... oops...

Boosting the MiG-3 is actually done by increasing the mixture to full forward. The MiG is basically manual mixture at 50% setting, and manual above and below it.

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2 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

Boosting the MiG-3 is actually done by increasing the mixture to full forward. The MiG is basically manual mixture at 50% setting, and manual above and below it.

But boost for the MiG-3 engages when mixture is above ~85% setting, Throttle is 100%, and prop RPM is at 100% I'm wondering now if the automix will engage the boost on its own, or if the lever for the mixture needs to specifically be at that position to engage it.

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One thing I have noticed is that the P-51 seems to trail smoke no matter what the settings. I have my mixture set to run and power is around max cont. but I constantly see smoke trails for the P-51. 

I'm not saying it's inaccurate but it does seem like we see smoke trails way too often even under lower settings. I'd expect to see trails at higher powers, I've read combat reports that state as much but lower settings seem to produce too much smoke as well.

 

Maybe it's just that I'm seeing my own smoke trails more than others? I've noticed sometimes where my friends can't see it but I can and vise versa.

Edited by Legioneod

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Just now, Legioneod said:

One thing I have noticed is that the P-51 seems to trail smoke no matter what the settings. I have my mixture set to run and power is around max cont. but I constantly see smoke trails for the P-51. 

I'm not saying it's inaccurate but it does seem like we see smoke trails way too often even under lower settings. I'd expect to see trails at higher powers, I've read combat reports that state as much but lower settings seem to produce too much smoke as well.

 

if you keep it at 2700 rpm's and below 46" it won't trail any smoke... Once you go beyond 46" you'll get a trail..

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