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Bang for Buck pc upgrade (HELP)

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PLEASE don't bury this in the hardware section just now :)

 

Hello everyone!

 

I've been thinking of upgrading my current PC in order to maximize my FPS in il2 VR, now that we have better spotting distance(Oculus Rift here) but I've only got some money to spare.

 

What would be the best thing to upgrade for me, CPU/RAM combo? or GPU? (I ONLY need more FPS in this game, as nothing else makes use of my pc's horsepower)

I could spare just enough for a 9700K with mobo and 16gigs of RAM or something around a 2080 (nonTI)

 

Im currently on a 4th gen i5 and a 1070 with 16 gigs of ddr3 1666ram. (see signature for more info)

 

Thanks in advance for any input!!!

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All depends on how much is you maximum budget. But for more fps you would most benefit from a new GPU and DDR4 RAM.

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What settings do you use now and what is your frame rate.

What settings do you want to use and what do you want your frame rate do be?

What is your budget?

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VR is a bit different because it requires the game to render twice as many frames - one for each VR screen, so I think it puts extra strain on both the CPU and GPU. Having said that, I still would think its unlikely that your CPU will be the bottleneck in this case, even with the increased VR workload,  so going with a better GPU would give you more FPS. 

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4 hours ago, Jansgi said:

All depends on how much is you maximum budget. But for more fps you would most benefit from a new GPU and DDR4 RAM.

 

Thats my problem right there, to get ddr4 ram I would need to buy a new processor and motherboard, but I can only afford one of the two upgrades.

4 hours ago, [DBS]Browning said:

What settings do you use now and what is your frame rate.

What settings do you want to use and what do you want your frame rate do be?

What is your budget?

 

They vary from 60 to 45, I would like them to stay around 90, so Im thinking maybe buy the CPU/MOBO/RAM and wait til I can afford the new GPU?

 

Budget for now is about 700usd

4 hours ago, Flashy said:

VR is a bit different because it requires the game to render twice as many frames - one for each VR screen, so I think it puts extra strain on both the CPU and GPU. Having said that, I still would think its unlikely that your CPU will be the bottleneck in this case, even with the increased VR workload,  so going with a better GPU would give you more FPS. 

 

 

Hmm you really think the CPU still isn't a bottleneck even if it is somewhere around 5 years old? what about the RAM speed, i've read that it has quite the impact on this sim.

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21 minutes ago, SAG said:

I would like them to stay around 90

 

This can not be done on a small or medium budget in VR.

 

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1 minute ago, [DBS]Browning said:

 

This can not be done on a small or medium budget in VR.

 

 

IT cant be done with a 9700k 16GB of ddr4 3400 and an rtx 2080?

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1 minute ago, SAG said:

 

IT cant be done with a 9700k 16GB of ddr4 3400 and an rtx 2080?

 

Oh, yeah, for that kind of budget it's possible!

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1 minute ago, [DBS]Browning said:

 

Oh, yeah, for that kind of budget it's possible!

 

Awesome! :) now, would you get the CPU and RAM first or the GPU?

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7 minutes ago, SAG said:

Hmm you really think the CPU still isn't a bottleneck even if it is somewhere around 5 years old? what about the RAM speed, i've read that it has quite the impact on this sim.

 

While its hard to say because VR is a bit of a special case, I dont think so. Most games dont actually use much CPU anyway, and even something like Il-2 doesnt appear to be very demanding on the CPU (a game like beamng.drive is another matter!). Even my 10 year old CPU still plays Il-2 fine, but it is pretty easy to tank my framerate by adding increased graphic loads like better mirrors, shadows and filtering. Thats not to say those increased graphic settings dont ALSO add CPU load (they still have to be processed) but generally its the graphics card that is struggling in that case. Although, CPU will limit the maximum FPS you can get and this is where it could affect VR performance because you basically need at least 120fps constantly to have a smooth experience on VR (60fps on each screen). This is one of the reasons a VR PC has to be so strong overall -its that high max framerate it has to maintain.  RAM speed is not that important (a few % points increase in fps typically), its more to do with how much RAM you have (running out of RAM while playing will cause big stutters or hangs as the game has to transfer data off the much slower ssd or hdd).

 

But, if you're asking which one would make the biggest difference to fps, I would still go with a better graphics card as the best bet. But then you have to consider the possibility that the CPU *might* bottleneck that card at VR speeds.. 

30 minutes ago, SAG said:

They vary from 60 to 45, I would like them to stay around 90, so Im thinking maybe buy the CPU/MOBO/RAM and wait til I can afford the new GPU?

 

can you describe the situations that cause the lower FPS? Is it when there are more particle effects (fire,smoke,fog) or more buildings and trees on the screen (low flying)?

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6 minutes ago, Flashy said:

 

While its hard to say because VR is a bit of a special case, I dont think so. Most games dont actually use much CPU anyway, and even something like Il-2 doesnt appear to be very demanding on the CPU (a game like beamng.drive is another matter!). Even my 10 year old CPU still plays Il-2 fine, but it is pretty easy to tank my framerate by adding increased graphic loads like better mirrors, shadows and filtering. Thats not to say those increased graphic settings dont ALSO add CPU load (they still have to be processed) but generally its the graphics card that is struggling in that case. Although, CPU will limit the maximum FPS you can get and this is where it could affect VR performance because you basically need at least 120fps constantly to have a smooth experience on VR (60fps on each screen). This is one of the reasons a VR PC has to be so strong overall -its that high max framerate it has to maintain.  RAM speed is not that important (a few % points increase in fps typically), its more to do with how much RAM you have (running out of RAM while playing will cause big stutters or hangs as the game has to transfer data off the much slower ssd or hdd).

 

But, if you're asking which one would make the biggest difference to fps, I would still go with a better graphics card as the best bet. But then you have to consider the possibility that the CPU *might* bottleneck that card at VR speeds.. 

 

can you describe the situations that cause the lower FPS? Is it when there are more particle effects (fire,smoke,fog) or more buildings and trees on the screen (low flying)?

 

 

Mainly when low flying. I would even go as far as saying that only when low flying do I hit 45FPS

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1 minute ago, SAG said:

IT cant be done with a 9700k 16GB of ddr4 3400 and an rtx 2080?

 

Be careful with the 2080. The released "RTX 2070 Super" has a 2080 chip and costs a fraction.

 

They are having poor sales due to the price of the RTXs, then I think they finally gave up (AMD has a new release) and updated the RTX lineup. So the RTX 2060 Super has a 2070 chip and the 2070 Super has a 2080 chip. Whoever bought the original RTX series a week before the Super release got stabbed in the back, but that's how it goes with hardware. 

 

But the RTX 2080 Super does not have the 2080 Ti chip, then I think the gain is not so great. The real gain is from the 2060 to the 2060 Super and from the 2070 to the 2070 Super, since the update has the chip above.

 

Also consider overclock, since these games require high clocks to run smooth. So I would not buy the i7-8700K, which still has TIM paste on the IHS and has hyper threading (I don't think BOX uses hyper threading). I don't have VR, but I was seeing people here buying the i5-9600K. Or then the i7-9700K. They come with solder and the temps are much better, so you have a greater chance of hitting the 5Ghz mark with a reasonable 240mm water cooler or a top o the line air cooler. Also consider some Gigabyte for a motherboard, since I was hearing that Asus was splitting the VRM phases and saying it had "twelve phases" when in fact were 6 or something. Look for reviews, but people were saying that Gigabyte had some cheap / sturdy motherboards for the 9000 series, including the i9-9900K. 

 

I have a Gigabyte Z390 UD and I'm running my i5-9600K at 5Ghz with no effort. And the higher clock does make a difference in here.

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8 minutes ago, SAG said:

 

 

Mainly when low flying. I would even go as far as saying that only when low flying do I hit 45FPS

Yeah I dont think the 1070 is strong enough for VR so I am still thinking a better GPU is the best bet.

 

here, watch these two vids:

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, SeaW0lf said:

 

Be careful with the 2080. The released "RTX 2070 Super" has a 2080 chip and costs a fraction.

 

They are having poor sales due to the price of the RTXs, then I think they finally gave up (AMD has a new release) and updated the RTX lineup. So the RTX 2060 Super has a 2070 chip and the 2070 Super has a 2080 chip. Whoever bought the original RTX series a week before the Super release got stabbed in the back, but that's how it goes with hardware. 

 

But the RTX 2080 Super does not have the 2080 Ti chip, then I think the gain is not so great. The real gain is from the 2060 to the 2060 Super and from the 2070 to the 2070 Super, since the update has the chip above.

 

Also consider overclock, since these games require high clocks to run smooth. So I would not buy the i7-8700K, which still has TIM paste on the IHS and has hyper threading (I don't think BOX uses hyper threading). I don't have VR, but I was seeing people here buying the i5-9600K. Or then the i7-9700K. They come with solder and the temps are much better, so you have a greater chance of hitting the 5Ghz mark with a reasonable 240mm water cooler or a top o the line air cooler. Also consider some Gigabyte for a motherboard, since I was hearing that Asus was splitting the VRM phases and saying it had "twelve phases" when in fact were 6 or something. Look for reviews, but people were saying that Gigabyte had some cheap / sturdy motherboards for the 9000 series, including the i9-9900K. 

 

I have a Gigabyte Z390 UD and I'm running my i5-9600K at 5Ghz with no effort. And the higher clock does make a difference in here.

 

 

So Would it be better/same to buy a 2070 super instead of a 2080 in terms of performance? 

 

Thanks for the advice on brands, as far as cooling goes, I bought an NHD-15 from noctua a while back anticipating a CPU upgrade.

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6700k/1080/Index here. Honestly the 9700k & 2070S would be a good combo and should stay within that budget.

 

My next upgrade will likely be a GPU first, contrary to a lot of the comments around IL2 being CPU bound, once you’re in VR the rendering requirements REALLY hit your GPU. There’s a performance testing thread in the VR sub forum that support this. 9700k is basically the max CPU you’d need, you could probably even get away with a 9600K.

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Just now, SAG said:

So Would it be better/same to buy a 2070 super instead of a 2080 in terms of performance? 

 

Thanks for the advice on brands, as far as cooling goes, I bought an NHD-15 from noctua a while back anticipating a CPU upgrade.

 

Yes, the RTX 2070 Super will have the same performance of the entry level 2080. From reviews, the difference is of a couple frames from the 2070 Super to the 2080. Or you could buy the 2080 Super (I think the price is a bit better than the 2080), which is in between the 2080 and the 2080 Ti. You can check the review of the MSI 2070 Super. It has the results of the 2070, 2080, 2070 Super, the MSI 2070 Super (custom models), the 2080 Super and the 2080 Ti.

 

But if your budget gets tight, it might be better to get the 2070 Super (which is a bargain with the current prices), lose a couple frames to the original 2080 that you were considering and use the money to get a good CPU / cooling / RAM combo.

 

Yes, a Noctua NH-D15 would be enough to get to 5Ghz if your chip is not too bad. The only problem is the weight of it (would be better to get a beefier motherboard) and it will require low profile ram (height) and the GPU on the second slot. 

 

Also try to get DDR4 3600Mhz with CL16. You might find some good deals out there.

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I wen't for 2070super and fps went up, but there are still stutters when AI or other playes in larger numbers comes in so i guess cpu/mobo/ram will have to be upgraded!

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7 minutes ago, EAF_Ribbon said:

I wen't for 2070super and fps went up, but there are still stutters when AI or other playes in larger numbers comes in so i guess cpu/mobo/ram will have to be upgraded!

 

What kind of FPS do you get say, while strafing a tank column? :) 

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Oh, I forgot. They updated the Intel 9000 series with the KF series. Those are chips that came with a faulty onboard graphics, so they rebranded as KF and you require a dedicated GPU to run the monitor, like the RTX series, AMD series. But I would just buy it if the price is significantly better. For just 10/20U$ price cut I would stick with the K series.

 

At Newegg you find the i7-9700K for 364$ and the i7-9700KF for 349$, so it is not worthy, I would still get the i7-9700K. But here in Brazil they released the KF series with good prices, so I was considering the i7-9700KF for the release of Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 next year.

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6 minutes ago, SeaW0lf said:

Oh, I forgot. They updated the Intel 9000 series with the KF series. Those are chips that came with a faulty onboard graphics, so they rebranded as KF and you require a dedicated GPU to run the monitor, like the RTX series, AMD series. But I would just buy it if the price is significantly better. For just 10/20U$ price cut I would stick with the K series.

 

At Newegg you find the i7-9700K for 364$ and the i7-9700KF for 349$, so it is not worthy, I would still get the i7-9700K. But here in Brazil they released the KF series with good prices, so I was considering the i7-9700KF for the release of Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 next year.

 

Im so excited seawolf!

 

With the news of the 2070 super i can afford the whole PC today IF I get the 9600k 

 

Do you think the 9600k is good enough!?

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17 minutes ago, SAG said:

Do you think the 9600k is good enough!?

 

There is a post from 2018 with people discussing the i5-9600K for VR. See if Dakpilot is liking it. But I have an i5-9600K and when I heard of the MFS 2020 I wished to have bought an i7-9700K (which I might buy as soon as I learn about MFS 2020 specs).

 

So I would try to fit the i7 in the mix. But if people are having good results with the i5-9600K overclocked, I don't see why it would be a bad buy. It is still a monster, and at least here, clock still rules over core count and Hyper Threading has no use (just for who stream, since Windows manage the threads).

 

 

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5 hours ago, SAG said:

 

Im so excited seawolf!

 

With the news of the 2070 super i can afford the whole PC today IF I get the 9600k 

 

Do you think the 9600k is good enough!?

Can confirm, the 9700k with DDR4 3200mhz and a 2070S with a Rift S performs very well. I just upgraded from a 2700k and DDR2 and a gtx 970 a couple weeks ago and got the Rift S. It's NICE.  Like amazing nice. And I still haven't overclocked yet (coming soon, after I get all this SS and AA and SSAO and Sharpen stuff figured out). I can't imagine a 9600k would be that much different.  I picked up the 9700k for $300, FWIW. 

*  edit: purchased from Microcenter:

https://www.microcenter.com/product/512484/intel-core-i7-9700k-coffee-lake-36-ghz-lga-1151-boxed-processor  *

 

Good luck and enjoy the new build! 

Edited by Eclipse4349
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Cascade Lake-X is coming out in November. It's high end processors, 10+ cores, but they are selling at 50% of the previous generation which might knock down CPU prices next month. Just FYI.

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The HEDT platform (Cascade Lake-X in this case) is not really interesting for gaming at this point. It might have a similar latency* of the Ryzen 2000 series, don't overclock as werll and the motherboards are way pricier. Perhaps the reason of the price cuts. To buy a 590$ CPU that has poor latency for gaming and don't overclock as well as an i7-9700K is a waste in my opinion. Even the i9-9900K is cheaper. To spend that much, I would buy an i7-9700K, a nice 360mm water cooler and overclock it to the Moon.

 

[for who does not know] *HEDT chips and Ryzen chips are made for a high core count (mesh design in the case of Intel) and do not have the same quick latency of the Intel ‘gaming’ CPUs, which uses the ring bus design (i5-9600K / i7-9700K / i9-9900K). Hence why HEDT chips constantly lost to the i7 generation over the years. Just in some cases they stood ahead because of the higher core count, but to this day the i7s and today the i9-9900K are the quickest of the bunch and cheaper [something like that]

 

The Ryzen 3000 series would be a much more reasonable buy than the HEDT chips and cost just a fraction.

 

From what I read, the Cascade Lake-X release might not affect the mainstream Intel prices because they just want to sell the HEDT chips. And Intel still holds to the notion that they have the better gaming CPUs, so they might not cut a cent from the mainstream chips.

 

I could wait to see if something will change, or if Intel will cut the prices before the next mainstream generation (they always do), but I would not hold my breath. 

Edited by SeaW0lf

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NOTHING 

 

You already have enough FPS 

 

lol

 

also: what the hell is up with your location? hope it's a joke 

Edited by Krisu
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8 hours ago, SAG said:

 

Awesome! :) now, would you get the CPU and RAM first or the GPU?

I think in this case your CPU is the weak link, for sure. I would do that first and wait on the GPU. 

 

Now... Don't rush into a 2070 super! there is the AMD 5700xt which offers similar performance for considerably less cost. I have one, and it does the job nicely, barely breaks a sweat running IL2. I am not a VR user, though, so your FPS would be lower.  It does not feature ray tracing however, though I personally feel ray-tracing is currently a performance killing gimmick. Just something to consider

Edited by Tasmanaut

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If your running a gen 1 rift, than whats the point of the upgrade, in the end your still going to have the same view.  There are plenty of HMD's far superior that take less horsepower.

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1 hour ago, Krisu said:

NOTHING 

 

You already have enough FPS 

 

lol

 

also: what the hell is up with your location? hope it's a joke 

 

No such thing as enough fps for VR I'm afraid 😕

 

...and nope. Medellin born and raised!

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1 minute ago, SAG said:

 

No such thing as enough fps for VR I'm afraid 😕

 

...and nope. Medellin born and raised!

 

oooooooooooooooooffffff? 

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29 minutes ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

If your running a gen 1 rift, than whats the point of the upgrade, in the end your still going to have the same view.  There are plenty of HMD's far superior that take less horsepower.

 

The idea is to not have stuttering and slow fps even at mediumish settings, I do agree that there are better headsets out there atm but right now im stretching just for the rig haha, Im waiting for something that i consider a worthy upgrade before changing headsets

4 minutes ago, Krisu said:

 

oooooooooooooooooffffff? 

 

 

Idk what to say to that hehe

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In my experience, upgrading one component in an aging system isn't ideal. You can't stick a top-end GPU into a DDR3 system and expect it to be able to go full-bore in top-end games, the old parts will bottle-neck it significantly.

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Today I bit the bullet and bought...

 

9700K i5

z390 board with 16 gb of ddr4 3200 RAM

RTX 2070 Super XC from EVGA

 

 

 

 

Thanks for all the help everyone, Ill update this thread when the final component arrives (The motherboard) I have assembled the PC! :)

 

 

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31 minutes ago, SAG said:

9700K i5

 

i5 or i7? Because the 9700K is i7. Or was the i5-9600K?

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12 minutes ago, SeaW0lf said:

 

i5 or i7? Because the 9700K is i7. Or was the i5-9600K?

 

 

i found a very affordable 9700k (i7) at a local shop so i grabbed it right away.

 

I don't even have the motherboard yet haha.

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I typicall Run the HW monitor app while playing various games to give me some insight. I did with mine yesterday and here are the results. To sum it up, the GPU is 100% loaded and the CPU averages around 82% across all cores. Frame rate runs a consistent 45 with all graphics options set to highest  regardless of how close to ground..

 

in summary the bottleneck is still gpu performance over cpu. Likely because il-2 uses all cores vs. single core performance in many other games. This is likely to be even more pronounced with a i7-9700k. You might consider adding the videocard now, then see how limiting the existing cpu is before going forward.

 

i7- 6700k @ 4.5ghz

evga 2080ti black w/ hydrocopper cooler @ 750mem and 225 core OC

gigabyte z170 gaming 3 mb

samsung odyessy +

32mg ddr4 3000htz ram

m.2 drives, ssd, and hdd

custom loop cpu/gpu w/ 360 radiator

Edited by Rossterman
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Almost certainly cpu+mobo first, either get a cheaper gpu upgrade now or later, but you are going to have a bad time with a 2080+ that cpu.

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9 minutes ago, Rossterman said:

I typicall Run the HW monitor app while playing various games to give me some insight. I did with mine yesterday and here are the results. To sum it up, the GPU is 100% loaded and the CPU averages around 82% across all cores. Frame rate runs a consistent 45 with all graphics options set to highest  regardless of how close to ground..

 

in summary the bottleneck is still gpu performance over cpu. Likely because il-2 uses all cores vs. single core performance in many other games. This is likely to be even more pronounced with a i7-9700k. You might consider adding the videocard now, then see how limiting the existing cpu is before going forward.

 

i7- 6700k @ 4.5ghz

evga 2080ti black w/ hydrocopper cooler @ 750mem and 225 core OC

gigabyte z170 gaming 3 mb

samsung odyessy +

32mg ddr4 3000htz ram

m.2 drives, ssd, and hdd

custom loop cpu/gpu w/ 360 radiator

 

 

I bought a 2070Super as a 2080Ti was just TOO darn expensive for me.

I have a CPU MOBO combo now (9700k) that i dont plan on changing for the next 5-6 years  unless there is some major development in personal computing before that.

 

So maybe in a couple of years there is a 3080ti or something that can run the game a full settings without ever going below 90 FPS, but for now I think that i will enjoy the improved performace of the new rig and patch :) 

Edited by SAG

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8 minutes ago, SAG said:

i found a very affordable 9700k (i7) at a local shop so i grabbed it right away.

 

I don't even have the motherboard yet haha.

 

Great buy! I’m eying an i7-9700K myself. I read somewhere that the MFS 2020 beta event was running with i7-8700Ks (a draw with the 9700K, but runs hotter because of the TIM paste on the IHS) and 2080 Tis, so I think you are good to go. I need to catch up and update both my CPU (preferably) and GPU. 

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1 minute ago, SAG said:

 

 

I bought a 2070Super as a 2080Ti was just TOO darn expensive for me.

I have a CPU MOBO combo that i dont plan on changing for the next 5-6 years  unless there is some major development in personal computing before that.

 

So maybe in a couple of years there is a 3080ti or something that can run the game a full settings without ever going below 90 FPS, but for now I think that i will enjoy the improved performace of the new rig and patch :) 

I know, the prices of nvidia’s stuff is outrageous. Thankfully I retired comfortably so can afford to get gouged once in awhile. To be honest my 980ti hydrocopper did a pretty adequate job too. I decided to upgrade when they offered the 2080ti for $999. Was able to sell the 980ti for $250 so came out OK on the deal. Your perspective on waiting is a good one. To be honest, the raytracing isn’t all that impressive for the performance hit you take. For the cost of the 2080ti, they should have doubled up the on die gpu to deliver outstanding, not just better, performance.

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11 minutes ago, SeaW0lf said:

 

Great buy! I’m eying an i7-9700K myself. I read somewhere that the MFS 2020 beta event was running with i7-8700Ks (a draw with the 9700K, but runs hotter because of the TIM paste on the IHS) and 2080 Tis, so I think you are good to go. I need to catch up and update both my CPU (preferably) and GPU. 

 

I'm also waiting on FS2020, it might just be what i need to get back into civil aviation and your comment on wanting to change to a 9700k from a 9600k had an impact on my buying decision if i'm being honest.

 

I hope you get to upgrade soon!

 

 

7 minutes ago, Rossterman said:

I know, the prices of nvidia’s stuff is outrageous. Thankfully I retired comfortably so can afford to get gouged once in awhile. To be honest my 980ti hydrocopper did a pretty adequate job too. I decided to upgrade when they offered the 2080ti for $999. Was able to sell the 980ti for $250 so came out OK on the deal. Your perspective on waiting is a good one. To be honest, the raytracing isn’t all that impressive for the performance hit you take. For the cost of the 2080ti, they should have doubled up the on die gpu to deliver outstanding, not just better, performance.

 

 

Or maybe AMD will come up with a reasonably priced and well performing card for VR within two years, we'll see.

 

My main problem with Nvidia and their prices is that I earn in COP (colombian pesos) and the dollar is quite expensive at the moment, and to top it all off, I have to pay import fees or the outrageous markups from local shops. so a 1000USD can cost me upwards of 1300USD all while buying with a currency with considerably less purchasing power.

 

I just wish they had regional pricing, bu I understand why they don't.

 

Anyway, enough with my rant hahaha and thanks for your input! 

 

S!

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