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JG1_Wittmann

All tanks using M4 style gun aiming, Good or Bad ?

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I  put a Tiger  as player vehicle in the Jagdpanzer IV  X 2,   vs 1 T34 and 1 KV1   AI matchup.   

 

That fiasco, and soon to be bug report  listed in prev thread.   

 

What I noticed,    is the now wonky    aiming circle  and gun/turret jerkiness  in the Tiger.     I had a hard time with it  and  much preferred the way it was.

I hope the devs  read some of these threads and allow a user to opt out of the WOT/War Thunder   type of  junk added to the game.   The movement is way to fast with a mouse now,   and no, I'm not changing my mouse speed just to control turret/gun in one game.   I don't want an aiming circle when I'm out the hatch as commander  and I want realistic  gun/turret movement, not arcadish.

 

There may be some things in the latest update that are great,  new AC, huge map, viewing distance, fixes, etc, etc.   This new gun movement,  IMO,   is horrible.

 

How about allowing a player to map the gun and the turret  to keys, or a joystick ?

 

The Panzer IV L70  looks nice,   but from what I can tell   is just another  building  or stand of trees, it's completely useless as an AI vehicle in a mission because It  performs like it has the most inaccurate gun of them all,    while in reality,   it was the most accurate of all guns currently represented in game.

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Yeah i agree, i dont know if its just my mouse but the aiming on the tiger and other tanks is much harder to control now 

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I found it a bit more realistic, but still dislike how the eyes move outside the sight and some tanks have the sight and gun moving too fast. But its better than the slow and super steady sight we had before, aiming wasnt exactly easy in ww2 tanks. And was easy to roll the sight adjustments too much in combat for a green gunner.

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Well,  the way  it's moving around now, so fast,   is not realistic at all.   It was exact, otherwise you would never hit a target 2000m away,  much less 4.5 km that a Tiger knocked out a T34 at. 

didn't these tanks have a fine adjust wheel and a course ?

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I have tested with Tiger (mouse control), turret/gun seems to turn a direction by itself, aiming is very hard with that sluggish controls, I cannot imagine that was reality and I do not understand what the developers trying to reach.

 

For me Tank Crew with that new "feature" is getting even worser than before. It's not understandable why the are coming with such a thing around but dont fix the present problems and bugs. There is so much to do in development and they coming with this hilarious change and no word about all the construction zones.

I have had high hopes on this Tank Sim, but it is such a disappointing experience. 

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Well,look who's complaining about the crazy turrets now...Welcome to our world, fellas!What?Too much realism this time?:yahoo:

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Posted (edited)

This is my attempt of helping you guys. I have used the same aiming system with the new T34 for months now without any issues.

 

The only thing that moves faster now is the mouse while fully zoomed in. Previously the mouse moved slower when zoomed in. I tested every tank and the turret now rotates at the same speed regardless of zoom. The mouse sensitivity also stays the same regardles of zoom. You can zoom in 100% and still rotate the turret at the same speed as being fully zoomed out but you have to use the mouse a lot more. The only thing that changes is how much room your mouse can move away from the aiming sight when using zoom, effectively giving the turret a longer or shorter distance to follow the mouse on the screen. If you move the mouse while fully zoomed in, the turret only has to adjust few inches. While zoomed out it has to adjust dozens of inches or more. All tanks use full speed by fedault to rotate the turret unless the mouse is very close to the aiming reticle.

 

This works best for the Sherman because it has the best turret rotation speed, which makes this system very efficient with that particular tank. If you go and try Sherman, you will notice how effortless it is to controll the turret and it does exaclty what you want it to do. Other tanks rotate turrets slower making the time needed to follow the mouse considerably longer. This means longer turret reaction time when the mouse is moved. With the Sherman this waiting time is non-existent but others have to wait. When you want to rotate the turret fast while zoomed out, gently move your mouse and give the turret time to react before you move mouse again. Otherwise this leads to helicopter spinning.

 

And yet again we meet the same issue some players weren't able to adjust with the new T34. Do not yank the mouse around like a madman when zoomed out. Use steady, controlled movement when zoomed out. When you are zoomed out use very subtle movements with your mouse. Even when zoomed out, you can still move your mouse while turret is adjusting but you have to do it gently. You can also turn down your mouse sensitivity, but you sacrifice turret rotation speed while zoomed in. If you look carefully, you can see exactly where the turret is going to rotate now after you moved the mouse. This is highlighted as orange on the lower left corner where you can see your turret and hull orientation.

Edited by Torrens
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3 hours ago, RIVALDO said:

Well,look who's complaining about the crazy turrets now...Welcome to our world, fellas!What?Too much realism this time?

I love it :P

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, I./ZG1_feuervogel said:

For me Tank Crew with that new "feature" is getting even worser than before. It's not understandable why the are coming with such a thing around but dont fix the present problems and bugs. There is so much to do in development and they coming with this hilarious change and no word about all the construction zones.

I have had high hopes on this Tank Sim, but it is such a disappointing experience. 

I also don't like new aiming system. But I think we will get used to it.. 

About problems in general - honestly it seems after last update DM of free T-34 is fixed. At least now I can destroy it with only one 75-mm round at point blank range.

And I can be wrong, but rear armor bug with free T-34 is also fixed now..

Edited by Lofte

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Basically, we need an alternative to the mouse -aim system. Buttons or axis for separate traverse and gun elevation is the way to go. Everything else is either gonna feel arcadeish and way too easy or clunky and unreliable. Make the controls similar to what they were IRL. 

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Posted (edited)

Well, thanks for replying and trying to help. Today I ve been on a server with normal realism settings and found out that there is a "aiming assist icon" (little orange circle and arrows showing direction) which is working like a "mouse pointer", barrel/turret follows this icon. I really never realized this when playing tank missions (mostly expert settings) until now. So if you move mouse too quickly the whole thing gets crazy. Things getting clearer but I don't know if i could get used to that, guess I will get crazy earlier. And that re-centering turret will finish me off.

 

As Finkeren said, this is like toy playing, if TC aim to be a serious simulation this is the wrong way in my opinion. But hope is the last to die ...

Edited by I./ZG1_feuervogel

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Hi all. I'm new to the game. I just bought it last week. Ever since the new patch came out, I've completely lost any control of the turret from the gunner's position. When I try to use either my mouse or joystick I get no turret movement at all. All the keyboard commands such as zoom or change ammo type work, but no turret movement nor can I fire the Main gun or coax withe mouse buttons or the trigger on my joystick. I haven't changed any settings except to try switching between mouse or the joystick as my main controller. Thanks in advance for any advice. I'll hold off on putting in a help ticket until I find out if this is a brain fart on my part, or something more complicated to resolve.

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Have you tried the "T" key?  That should activate turret control if you hadn't already done it.

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Posted (edited)

I forgot to add something. The camera is now locked to the gunsight instead of the mouse. Previously the camera would follow the mouse instead of gunsight causing the issue of people seeing nothing but black when they wanted to rotate the turret by significant amount. The gunsight still follows the mouse now but the camera is now following gunsight unlike before.  I think this is the main reason why players feel disoriented now. The mouse isn't any more sensitive than before but the camera is reversed so we can't see where the mouse is going unless we look at the orange indicator in lower left of the screen.

Edited by Torrens

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4 hours ago, chuter said:

Have you tried the "T" key?  That should activate turret control if you hadn't already done it.

That's why I posted here. I thought it had to be something I was missing, Thank you.

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Posted (edited)

excerpts:

March 9th, 19th, 20th:

 

 

 

 

 

June 6th

I tried to raise awareness about the genre defining control decisions (do we aim a ww2 tank gun or an FPS aim-endpoint?) as early as July 2018(!) but was met with either over-simplifications of hope and all-will-be-well or just actual non-comprehension of the actual issue (the latter fe by "Testers").
Maybe this topic can find awareness in a civilized exchange now.

 

Edited by [_FLAPS_]RogoRogo
typo(s)

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On 10/2/2019 at 5:20 AM, RIVALDO said:

Well,look who's complaining about the crazy turrets now...Welcome to our world, fellas!What?Too much realism this time?:yahoo:

Please enlighten us, what exactly is more realistic with the new way the turrets are turning like mad. At least german tanks had handwheels for fine adjusting. 

The way it is modelled now is by far the worst I ever experienced. 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

Please enlighten us, what exactly is more realistic with the new way the turrets are turning like mad. At least german tanks had handwheels for fine adjusting. 

The way it is modelled now is by far the worst I ever experienced. 

 

I think he was making fun of me in his own sarcastic way because I am always complaining and ranting about TC ... He is a hard working tank multiplayer and does know what it is about.

Edited by I./ZG1_feuervogel

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6 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

Please enlighten us, what exactly is more realistic with the new way the turrets are turning like mad. At least german tanks had handwheels for fine adjusting.

My point of it:
For me its slightly better system than before but not perfect, Im using a game mouse where I have buttons for changing the DPI from very sluggish to super rapid, and also set my controls to fit me perfectly, but like Torrens said: If you are in gunner position and 0% zoom then the sensitivity is on max, if you move the mouse it will move rapidly. To me this is like when you use the electrical system to move the sight is on max traverse, should only be used to get the turret facing towards the enemy. If you then zoom in to 100% zoom then the sight will move slow as before the changes and its in this mode one put in the final adjustments, can easily do minor changes and hit targets 2-3 km away with ease. I guess its like the gunner is using the hand treverse to do the final sight adjustments to hit the target.
But if you dont use zoom: then yes, the sight will fly around without any precision.

Some tanks in ww2 had problems with gunner moving the sight too fast with the electrical drive, M4 sherman and king tiger with the engine connected to the turret, and some tanks didnt even have fast traverse due to no electrical drive like Panzer IV J, then it was super slow to traverse and aim instead. Hopefully the devs will make the sight system unique to each tank.

But yes this sight system isnt perfect and hope the devs make a better one for the close future, maybe even using the keyboard, some keys for adjusting down and up and another for left/right, and one button to change traverse speed.

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As the gunsights had a fix zoom, zooming in and out is purely arcade anyway. I set the zoom the way, that you have the FOV, that the original gunsights had. To me it looks as if this corresponds with the 2.5x zoom the german tanks had (of course it is a rough guess, as it is some years gone, that I was in german army)

The movement of the turret is very bad controlable, and as someone, who doesn't use HUD (more arcade is not possible), the yellow aid, that shows, where the mouse will turn the turret to, is no help.

Additionally I often have issues with moving the gun up or down, especially after I was driving, it takes often two or three seconds until I can do this.

So for me these changes are a clear step back.

As improvement I see, that I don't need the 'T' key to be able to move the gun or, like it was before this update, the head of the commander.

And the driving looks to me much smoother.

 

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Yeah, the tank mouse controls are really bad. 

 

And, yeah, I have a gaming mouse with fully adjustable on the fly custom dpi buttons but I fail to see why everytime I change positions or views I need to switch dpi.  I'd rather adjust the various mouse controlled view speeds in the menu and then use a universal setting on the mouse, you know, like a regular game.  I use the different dpi settings for different games.

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Made poll

Feel free to correct my language mistakes if they are there

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Doh, been fighting with the Tiger turret for two days now, wondering is my mouse broken and doing all sorts of changes with mouse controls in key settings. Definitely should visit this part of forum more frequently, I can say now with both relief and frustration...

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Please don't make World of Tanks from the Tank Crew. The new aiming system is the only possible way to keep realism. I had opportunity to aim and shot 2S1 Gvozdika and DANA. And believe me there is no way to point the target and just wait for gun and turret till they automaticly move like in World of Tanks or War Thunder...  Remember good old Panzer Elite? You just have to move the turret left or right on target and than the gun up or down. Of course to be more realistic there should be an option to push the button to change from electric/hydraulic fast aiming to slower but more precise manual one and that's it - full realism will be achieved. 

Edited by Kseremak
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1 hour ago, SailorMcintosh said:

So leave this new system but add button turret control instead of mouse. As simple as that.

Of course. There should be an option to use Mouse, button, joystick or gamepad. Of course joystick should be 0-1 when using electric drive (I'm not sure about German hydraulic) and smooth only on manual

Edited by Kseremak

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12 hours ago, Kseremak said:

. The new aiming system is the only possible way to keep realism.

Whahahahaha , ever driving in a real tank ??

 

Reallism ...my ….…   Its just a bad design  , nothing more and nothing less .

 

Aiming is a real pain in the … , sometimes no reaction of the main gun ..and the list goes on ….

 

Sorry Kseremak , i gues  you never be a part of a real tank crew .

 

 

This is no realism ..only a bad design……….

 

 

Edited by 1.JaVA_KEBEN

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I am utterly confounded by the statements insisting the new controls are more realistic.  Is it more realistic to have your gun swinging back and forth, up and down across the target because you can't slow it down quick enough?  Really?  If you see the indicator happens to be roughly aligned with your desired aiming direction you can sit back and wait for the turret to align with your preselected position?  I'm sure it has something to do with everyone's settings but my goodness ...

 

Maybe, just maybe if they default the gunsight view to FULLY ZOOMED then I can switch to gunner and not have my turret start in a 360 while I grab the mouse.

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2 hours ago, 1.JaVA_KEBEN said:

Sorry Kseremak , i gues  you never be a part of a real tank crew. 

That is 100% true. I am artillerist 😉 2S1 and DANA are self propelled howitzers. My point is that aiming indicator like in War Thunder which you point at the target and Just wait for gun to automatically aim is nonsense (kind of it is possible in Modern MBT's when Commander has hunter killer panoramic sight). And believe me it is possible to miss the target too much left or right if you use only fast electric traverse. That is why I suggested adding button to change from electric to precise manual aim. And Yes you are right: mouse is not the best aiming device because it does not have intuitive "zero move point" like button or joystick. 

Edited by Kseremak
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What is definitely more realistic is that the mouse is now bound to the gun not the sight of the gunner. Before the update, when you moved your mouse too fast, you had the black shadow as your vision left the gunsight, which is, of course, nonsense, as the gunner doesn't turn away from the gunsight. So in that sense, the new way is more realistic. But the way it is working now, misses some fine tuning, at least. I have set my mouse sensitivity from 20 to 5 and eliminated the acceleration for it (I don't know if the later really has some influence on it). Additionally my gunsight is zoomed in to how the gunsights IRL were. For the german gunsights it means, the base on top of the upside down triangle touches the top of the screen. For the russian tanks IIRC the markings should fill almost the gunsight (there was a picture of a gunsight view posted somewhere). This zoom is fixed for me and is about halfway zoomed in. With this setting the turret doesn't move that fast anymore, so you can handle it. But of course you should not be able to set this yellow line outside of your gunsight, so your turret still turns when you stopped to move your mouse.

And like I and others posted before, if this wants to be a simulation, then there is no way besides binding the turret and weapon movement to keys and/or joystick, with the possibility of fast electric or hydraulic turning and slow turning, done with a handwheel, simulated in the game.

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3 hours ago, Kseremak said:

That is 100% true. I am artillerist 😉 2S1 and DANA are self propelled howitzers. My point is that aiming indicator like in War Thunder which you point at the target and Just wait for gun to automatically aim is nonsense (kind of it is possible in Modern MBT's when Commander has hunter killer panoramic sight). And believe me it is possible to miss the target too much left or right if you use only fast electric traverse. That is why I suggested adding button to change from electric to precise manual aim. And Yes you are right: mouse is not the best aiming device because it does not have intuitive "zero move point" like button or joystick. 

 

The problem is , left and right aiming is fast , up and down is slow ...that wil never work with a mouse or a combined in one divice .  Before the update that movement whas the same  , up , down , left and right … that had the same feeling . The feeling of the aiming is not real after the update , ik feels like a drunk russian riding in a car ( see the russian dashcam movies   😉  )  ...something like that .. 

 

Then the next question , what is the right feeling ?

 

I think the right feeling , whas the feeling before the update ( at least, that whas giving me the feeling i whas used to in real life ) 

 

I have to aim a lot in real life , it never give me the feeling of a drunk russian gunner  … sometimes i have to practice a lot , but Always the aiming whas a natural feeling . 

 

Realy never overshoot a target , but now it feels like a drunk mouse ..and aiming is no real fun anymore …. it gives a lot irritation .

 

 

But … 

 

Its a game , and thats for fun .( i think the main target ) 

 

After a long week of work a need some time for myself , i found that in TC ….. but not anymore  😐.. it gives me a lot of irritation on this way .

 

 

I play il2 from the old version in 2004 ( ? )  and most of the time it gives me a lot of fun , after my nerve surgery on my left arm a few monts ago i'm only able to play TC .

Flying is no longer an option because of the pain ( at least no longer than 30 minutes ) the prognosis is that i am still working on the recovery for at least 2 years .

I am a pilot form orgine , like the most of us . Playing IL-2 for almost 15 years with my team 1.JaVA.

Win the european championships in Ahaus Germany  a long time ago ( 2009 ? ) So i can say that i have been walking along for a while ...every update whas a real update ..but now its a downgrade ..a big downgrage i think .

Due to my current work ( Hyundai master technician ) the recovery will take quite a while .

So the only relexation i get is from TC on this moment , shooting , driving a tank , sneeking  arround , kill tigers ans so on .

Working 70 hours in a week to feed mij family and finaly time to relax … and then with a drunk mouse trying to shoot a tiger 😖.. no fun ! 

 

Thats why i'm so irritated  , i am used to ( in my work ) thorougly testing an updated product before it goes to the consumer … because the customer is the one who pays my sandwich ( Dutch proverb ) .

I know that TC is just a small part of the entire series , and the work that the disigners have done is very beautiful . 

But what has been now deliverd is a major step back in the devolopment . 

There are not that many players in TC , but it is growing ! 

But i'm really afraid that this updat will cost players , if even some of the most enthusiastic player is no longer satisfied and the game has not been playing for a week ...that does mean something ! 

 

 

 

 

 

My advice is , settings back as they are before the update and most of the TC players are  happy .

 

 

 

Edited by 1.JaVA_KEBEN

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51 minutes ago, 1.JaVA_KEBEN said:

My advice is , settings back as they are before the update and most of the TC players are  happy .

 

No my friend, not back to how they were. The old settings were not good, either. When you started to move your mouse too soon or moved it too fast, your screen was black, as your view wandered out of the gunsight. Toggling your view in gunners position to the gunsight, was the right decision.

But the new system now needs some fine tuning. And here starts the challenge, if they want to do it right. There were different ways of turning the turret. The Panzer III only had manual turret turning, while the Panzer IV had a separate engine for turning the turret and the Tiger a hydraulic system depending on the engine rpm. I don't know anymore about the KV-1, T-34 and Sherman.

So my suggestion would be, stay with the new system, but make it better by implementing key binding and axis binding, and differentiating between fast turret turning and slow turret turning.

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6 hours ago, 1.JaVA_KEBEN said:

I play il2 from the old version in 2004 ( ? )  and most of the time it gives me a lot of fun , after my nerve surgery on my left arm a few monts ago i'm only able to play TC .

Flying is no longer an option because of the pain ( at least no longer than 30 minutes ) the prognosis is that i am still working on the recovery for at least 2 years .

I am a pilot form orgine , like the most of us . Playing IL-2 for almost 15 years with my team 1.JaVA.

First of all I keep my fingers crossed for your fast recovery - you are really a veteran and champion so never give up (like Aleksey Maresyev). 👍

 

6 hours ago, 1.JaVA_KEBEN said:

I have to aim a lot in real life , it never give me the feeling of a drunk russian gunner  … sometimes i have to practice a lot , but Always the aiming whas a natural feeling . 

 

Realy never overshoot a target , but now it feels like a drunk mouse ..and aiming is no real fun anymore …. it gives a lot irritation .

 

So, maybe I am wrong but if you are from Netherlands - your aiming experiences are from Leopard 2 or CV-90 - both have fire control systems, gun stabilization, hunter killer abilities. It is something different than WW2 tanks. Below is the 2S1 Gvozdika gunner view (on the left PG-2 sight - mostly for indirect fire, and on the right OP-5-37 sight for direct fire - very similar to soviet tanks from WW2):

2S1.thumb.jpg.101e98a649dede0b43f648d7ae2603ce.jpg

 

P.S. Imagine this solution - view control with Track IR, tank driving with joystick and gun aiming with hat (or driving with hat and aiming with joystick). It will be possible (and realistic even when using only one hand.

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12 hours ago, Kseremak said:

First of all I keep my fingers crossed for your fast recovery - you are really a veteran and champion so never give up (like Aleksey Maresyev). 👍

 

 

 

Thanks ! 

 

 

 

Don't get me wrong , not everything  is bad .. only the mouse handeling ..up and down , slow ...left and right quick …… thats the problem .

A normal person is not able to handle this strange configuration . 

 

If the speed of both axis is equal then the new system would work well .

The speed of both axis before the update was so good as equal ..and work fine .

But after the update there is now so much different in speed that i must use whol my desk for my up and down elevation , but on the other hand the movement for left and right is fa to sensitive .

This two different ( feelings ) give the most of the players problems in aiming .

( no natural feeling anymore ) 

 

 

 

 

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19 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

No my friend, not back to how they were. The old settings were not good, either. When you started to move your mouse too soon or moved it too fast, your screen was black, as your view wandered out of the gunsight. Toggling your view in gunners position to the gunsight, was the right decision.

But the new system now needs some fine tuning. And here starts the challenge, if they want to do it right. There were different ways of turning the turret. The Panzer III only had manual turret turning, while the Panzer IV had a separate engine for turning the turret and the Tiger a hydraulic system depending on the engine rpm. I don't know anymore about the KV-1, T-34 and Sherman.

So my suggestion would be, stay with the new system, but make it better by implementing key binding and axis binding, and differentiating between fast turret turning and slow turret turning.

 

You got a point , the old setting were not good either …. but better than this one .

 

Oke , how do i explain this ? 

 

If you change a system then you must test it well before you sent it to the costumer , i assume you agree with me on this 😉

Afther the update there are so many things that are wrong that is had become almost  unplayable .. 

Maybe this is an exaggerated statement , but certainly gives a lot of irritation .

 

In my profession , custumer satisfaction is the highest priorrity . That meens listening well to the customer , wishes and needs . 

Not everything is feasible , but whe still try to approach the customer as much as possible .

 

I know thew team works hard and the results are really beautifull !

But this update is a downgrade fot TC .

A bad or no good tested update .

 

 

But whe ask for ….. 

 

A better damage model for the old T34 , and that worked out like Judge told . +1

 

 

The ever turning tower ….. The most unrealistic on this game is the tower that is constanly turning back .

I never see a tank who is doing that …. but afther the update even the tower of the old T34 is turning back to the forward position 😖 , and because its an old model , you can not look arround the hatch with the track-ir …. with a result a big deadzone for looking arround . 

 

Would it really be so hard to change that turning back of the tower  ? 

 

 

The point is , 

 

Not every player bought TC  , there will be a lot of players who only have the old T34 .

But if the old T34 works well , it can lead that many people buy TC , because they fing out that TC is really great and give a lo of fun ( see it as advertising the product  ) 

 

 

 

Then the aiming system , this whas nearly ready to relase and gives a lot of irritation .

 

Why whe go so far back instead of ahead  ? 

 

 

 

But im also have to say that i couldn't do better , it's of course a beautifull piece of work !

TC Always gave me( before last update )  a great feeling .

With the smal but growing  groep of players , we do have a lot of fun .

Hopfully this problem will be solved  quickly so that we can play again with a lot of pleasure .

 

:friends:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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58 minutes ago, 1.JaVA_KEBEN said:

Oke , how do i explain this ? 

You don't have to explain anything. I am absolutely with you, that what we have now, is not good. My point was just, going back to the system before the update should not be the way to go. Better take the thing that is better now, that your view won't leave the gunsight anymore, when moving the mouse too fast, leaving a black screen, without you knowing where your gun is pointing to, and make a realistic system for moving the turret and gun to this improvement.

And yes the turning back to 12 o'clock of the turret, as soon as you leave the gunsight, is something that has to be changed as well. You can not even go out of gunsight, still in gunners position, to look at the device, in which direction your gun is pointing, without the turret turning back to 12.

And additionally there has to be binoculars for the commander. Guys, really, this is a must have.

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Well as the game isnt even finished, its in alpha testing so we who buy it havent yet gotten the full game, a reason why we might get updates that changes things to what we find odd but might when the game is finished and released to be fixed to the better.
They said in the developer diary that in the next update we will get commander controls so I guess the turning back of the turret to 12 o clock will be solved then, and sometime later as Yogiflight said about the new sight: get the feel for it better and more realistic and accurate to each tank, some tank has too fast traverse speed compared to the real thing and yeah as many said: issues with getting the sight to work well with mouse. But it is fixcable but will take time, its a game in development yet, not a released game. Hence you dont find tank crew on steam or other places yet.

Java come online and play, all the problems in the past havent stopped us before nor should this do, with some practice one can get the sight to work pretty well, or else see you online when they have updated the sight and improved it, hopefully not in the too far distant future.

Edited by judgedeath3
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